A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Wrangler]

Do you want to discuss Christology, or do you want to discuss the Greek language?

Some claim mastery of the Greek language is required to discuss Christology.

 

[RedFan]

Some claim mastery of the Greek language is required to discuss Christology.

It certainly helps!

 

[Wrangler]

It certainly helps!

I am Groot.

 

[RedFan]

I am Groot.

?

 

[Wrangler]

?

I speak English.

 

[Jack]

Yes. And?

You don't believe our Bibles?

No doubt there are others.

But you seem to think it’s from the “JW” perspective where this rendering of John 1:1 began.

I’ve shown otherwise.

No doubt there are others who's savior is Michael. Jesus is my Savior.

But I ask again (no one seems to want to answer):

Who was Jesus’ God?

The Father! Quite simple.

 

[Jack]

Nothing clearly says that. All that seems to say such have been proven false by context. Try it.

Let's see, the Bible says Jesus / God is "Mighty God", "the first and the last, "reads the minds and hearts" and is the Creator. Couldn't be any clearer!

 

[Jack]

You know you are not supposed to talk about this, right?

Says who? Are you saying Jesus isn't God???

The NRSV is the only translation approved by RCC, EOC and Protestants.
16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

In him and thought him. I know you want to pretend prepositions "in" and "through" are the same as a verb but it is not. Also, did you watch the vid expanding on the difference between Creation and the new creation through Christ? Doubtful.

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Amen Thomas! Jesus is my God too!

 

[Jack]

I never called your bibles satanic. I said by satans will,

Same thing! Do you read your own posts?

through wicked men they removed Gods name against his will. How do you think Jesus feels about that fact Jack?

I think the WatchTower deceitfully edited out Jesus being God, at least twice.

The JW bible says Jesus is God: NWT 1970 Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

 

[Wrangler]

Says who?

Policy Change - Topics On The Trinity Can Now Be Discussed at CyB Updated - 20/12/2024

Christianity Board has alway prided itself in being a place of scholarly discussion, friendship and an environment where members can grow, learn and share their experiences in Christ. Our team at Cyb have worked hard over the years to ensure that this ethos is maintained and upheld however, we...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Jack]

Policy Change - Topics On The Trinity Can Now Be Discussed at CyB Updated - 20/12/2024

Christianity Board has alway prided itself in being a place of scholarly discussion, friendship and an environment where members can grow, learn and share their experiences in Christ. Our team at Cyb have worked hard over the years to ensure that this ethos is maintained and upheld however, we...

www.christianityboard.com

Does it say Jesus can't be discussed?

 

[Runningman]

Let's see, the Bible says Jesus / God is "Mighty God", "the first and the last, "reads the minds and hearts" and is the Creator. Couldn't be any clearer!

Some translations of Isaiah 9:6 say the child would be "called" mighty God and then Jesus was never called that. Actually, Jesus went on to deny being God. Jesus also isn't the everlasting Father. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, then that would mean the Son is the Father and your theology of God has got a big problem.

So Isaiah 9:6 doesn't help you any. Nothing in the Bible helps you.

Jesus' teachings on worship, prayer, and fasting were all directed to the Father. Treating Jesus like God wasn't the idea he was trying to get across because he's a human and worshipping humans as your personal god is idolatry. This is exactly why no one prayed to Jesus in the Bible and no one worshipped Jesus as God.

 

[RedFan]

Some translations of Isaiah 9:6 say the child would be "called" mighty God and then Jesus was never called that. Actually, Jesus went on to deny being God. Jesus also isn't the everlasting Father. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, then that would mean the Son is the Father and your theology of God has got a big problem.

So Isaiah 9:6 doesn't help you any. Nothing in the Bible helps you.

Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:10), raised the dead (Luke 7:12-15), controlled nature (Matt. 8:26), and will judge the secret motives of men (Matt. 7:22-23). Aren't those helpful?

Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and Jesus does not correct him. Isn't that helpful?

As he is being stoned, Stephen prays to Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59) -- and praying to someone other than God would be idolatrous. Isn't that helpful?

Isaiah 60:19 promises that “the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory," and Luke 2:32 applies this to Jesus, calling him “a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." Isn't that helpful?

Joel 2:32 says "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" as an obvious reference to God, and Rom. 10:9 says "if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" -- immediately quoting Joel's comment as support (Rom. 10:13). Isn't that helpful?

Titus 2:13 refers to "the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." Isn't that helpful? In fact, so helpful that the NWT saw fit to butcher it into "the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus," in violation of Granville Sharp's rule (when και connects two nouns of the same case, and the article precedes the first noun but is not repeated before the second noun, the second always refers to the same person described by the first)?

I'm not saying that these are conclusive. Just helpful. Can you concede that much?

 

[Jack]

Some translations of Isaiah 9:6 say the child would be "called" mighty God and then Jesus was never called that.

Some? Make that LOTS of transaltions call Jesus Mighty God!

Isaiah 9:6 (DRV)
6 God the Mighty,

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CSBBible)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (GW)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (MLB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NET1)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6 Mighty-God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 "The Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 "Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 Mighty God,

Actually, Jesus went on to deny being God. Jesus also isn't the everlasting Father. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, then that would mean the Son is the Father and your theology of God has got a big problem.

So Isaiah 9:6 doesn't help you any. Nothing in the Bible helps you.

Should we believe your opinions or Isaiah? Hmm

Jesus' teachings on worship, prayer, and fasting were all directed to the Father. Treating Jesus like God wasn't the idea he was trying to get across because he's a human and worshipping humans as your personal god is idolatry. This is exactly why no one prayed to Jesus in the Bible and no one worshipped Jesus as God.

No Scripture? Of course not.

NWT Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

ONLY God knows all things!

Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Amen Thomas! Jesus is my God too!

 

[Runningman]

Some? Make that LOTS of transaltions call Jesus Mighty God!

Isaiah 9:6 (DRV)
6 God the Mighty,

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CSBBible)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (GW)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (MLB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NET1)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6 Mighty-God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 "The Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 "Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 Mighty God,

Saying what someone will be called isn't the same thing as calling them that.

Once again, Jesus was never called "mighty God" in the Bible.

Nor was Jesus called the Everlasting Father.

If you have the scripture showing otherwise, would love to see it. No one in the universe has found it yet.

Should we believe your opinions or Isaiah? Hmm

No Scripture? Of course not.

NWT Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

ONLY God knows all things!

Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Amen Thomas! Jesus is my God too!

I believe you should believe what the Bible says rightly divided, not what you want it to say. So far, it seems you have chosen the latter.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:10),

Jesus and other men given authority by God to forgive sins:

Matthew 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.

8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

raised the dead (Luke 7:12-15),

Peter also raised the dead:

Acts 9
40Then Peter sent them all out of the room. He knelt down and prayed, and turning toward her body, he said, “Tabitha, get up!” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter, she sat up.

controlled nature (Matt. 8:26),

So did Elijah:

1 Kings 17
1Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was among the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As surely as the LORD lives—the God of Israel before whom I stand—there will be neither dew nor rain in these years except at my word!”

and will judge the secret motives of men (Matt. 7:22-23).

God will judge through a man he apointed.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Aren't those helpful?

No. They only to serve by example that Jesus isn't God nor did anything that anyone else couldn't do when empowered by God.

Continued...

 

[Runningman]

Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and Jesus does not correct him. Isn't that helpful?

John 20:17 says that Thomas' God is the Father. Therefore, when Thomas said "my God" in John 20:28 why would that change?

As he is being stoned, Stephen prays to Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59) -- and praying to someone other than God would be idolatrous. Isn't that helpful?

The word "prayer" doesn't appear there in the Greek. Calling out or speaking to someone isn't praying to them, whether they be the Son at God's right hand or otherwise.

Didn't Jesus specifically instruct Christians to pray to the Father? Matt 6:6,9

Isaiah 60:19 promises that “the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory," and Luke 2:32 applies this to Jesus, calling him “a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." Isn't that helpful?

It says Jesus is a light for them for God's glory. That would mean it isn't his glory.

Joel 2:32 says "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" as an obvious reference to God, and Rom. 10:9 says "if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" -- immediately quoting Joel's comment as support (Rom. 10:13). Isn't that helpful?

Jesus is a distinctly different Lord than YHWH in this context. Jesus is the one YHWH wants people to believe in, but not the one they call on to be saved, i.e., the Bible never says call on the name of Jesus to be saved.

Look at Romans 10:9-13 where distinction is made between Jesus and God. You can also check out the OT texts where the cornerstone YHWH laid isn't himself YHWH. The LORD (YHWH) being called on is God, not Jesus.

Titus 2:13 refers to "the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." Isn't that helpful?

Great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.

In fact, so helpful that the NWT saw fit to butcher it into "the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus," in violation of Granville Sharp's rule (when και connects two nouns of the same case, and the article precedes the first noun but is not repeated before the second noun, the second always refers to the same person described by the first)?

The Granville Sharp rule doesn't exist in Greek. It suddenly mysteriously appears around verses where God and Jesus are mentioned in close proximity. I'll have to look into how the JW's translated that verse, but it certainly clears things up.

If you would like a pretty high level read on the GS rule being challenged in English then there is a Trinitarian who did it. Henry Alford, The Greek Testament.

I'm not saying that these are conclusive. Just helpful. Can you concede that much?

Thank you I appreciate it. They did help me understand what you believe, but they didn't help me see what you're seeing the same way.

 

[Cassandra]

the point is the word is not called God at John 1:1-a god is correct the way its worded.

That is not true. I even asked a friend of mine who is Greek--she says it is the Word was God.

 

[Jack]

Saying what someone will be called isn't the same thing as calling them that.

Once again, Jesus was never called "mighty God" in the Bible.

Nor was Jesus called the Everlasting Father.

If you have the scripture showing otherwise, would love to see it. No one in the universe has found it yet.

I believe you should believe what the Bible says rightly divided, not what you want it to say. So far, it seems you have chosen the latter.

What makes you think it can't happen??? Isaiah said it will. It will!

 

[Wrangler]

What makes you think it can't happen??? Isaiah said it will. It will!

Oy vey.

Of secondary importance is when. Fact is, Jesus was never called the things in Isaiah 9:6.

Of primary importance is that calling someone something does not make it true. Was Ali the greatest cause he said so?