A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Jack]

Oy vey.

Of secondary importance is when. Fact is, Jesus was never called the things in Isaiah 9:6.

Be patient.

Of primary importance is that calling someone something does not make it true. Was Ali the greatest cause he said so?

You're saying Isaiah was wrong?

Isaiah 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God,

Amen Jesus!

 

[Wrangler]

You're saying Isaiah lied?

No. I'm saying you are not comprehending what Scripture is saying.

Amen Jesus!

Jesus, quoting God does not make Jesus God. It would help you understand if you actually used God's name, YHWH.

16Come near to me and hear this: ‘From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it came to be I have been there.’” Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me and also sent his spirit.
17This is what Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, says: “I am Yahweh your God, who teaches you how to succeed, who leads you by the way that you should go. (REV)

 

[Jack]

No. I'm saying you are not comprehending what Scripture is saying.

Jesus, quoting God does not make Jesus God. It would help you understand if you actually used God's name, YHWH.

16Come near to me and hear this: ‘From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it came to be I have been there.’” Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me and also sent his spirit.
17This is what Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, says: “I am Yahweh your God, who teaches you how to succeed, who leads you by the way that you should go. (REV)

See post 1041.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That is not true. I even asked a friend of mine who is Greek--she says it is the Word was God.

Cass, the word in Greek is “theos” and it can mean any “god or goddess or divine personage”.....the Greeks would have called Zeus “theos”...even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4.....and at Phil 3:19, food is a “god” (theos) to some.

I have Greek friends too, and they say that this is true. Greek has no capital letters, so using capitals was at the discretion of the translators.....they were trinitarians and grabbed the opportunity to push it with John 1:1 and other verses. Only one “theos” is Yahweh, with the definite article (ho) in that verse, to indicate who it is....the other is not, because he is a “divine one” or a “god-like one”, authorised by his God and Father like the judges in Israel whom Yahweh himself called “gods”. (John 10:31-36)

It’s the same with “I Am” which is supposed to be a translation of God’s name in Exodus 3:13-15 transferred over to John 8:58....but the two are not even remotely connected. In Exodus Yahweh is telling Israel what he will “be”....not that he “is”. They already knew who he was, but he was about to show them what he would “be” in how he dealt with Pharaoh in liberating his people from slavery.

If God’s name had still been in use John 1:1 would read....
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine”.
It’s all distorted in the translation to promote a doctrine that did not originate with Christ or his apostles, but with an apostate church.

Greek words and phrasing are different to English.....you need to study with a concordance and an Interlinear to fully appreciate how different they are....and what a difference it makes to our understanding of Scripture.

 

[Cassandra]

Aunty, you are one of my favorite people here, but honestly that is what my Greek friend told me. She lives in Thessaloniki--she isGreek (for real). I asked her if it said God or a God. she said God. however, because of my respect for you,and to cement what i have said, i will surely look up the verse with at least one interlinear this week. ♥

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty, you are one of my favorite people here, but honestly that is what my Greek friend told me. She lives in Thessaloniki--she isGreek (for real). I asked her if it said God or a God. she said God. however, because of my respect for you,and to cement what i have said, i will surely look up the verse with at least one interlinear this week. ♥

You are very dear to me too Cass.....May I ask if your Greek friend is in the Orthodox Church or some other branch of Christendom that supports the trinity? It’s hard not to be biased when you grow up with a concept that is drilled into you....I was raised in the Anglican Church which is very trinitarian, and had that pumped into me from childhood......but the strange thing was, because I am a questioner and always have been, it never sat well with me because it is illogical. From my perspective, I do not find anything in the Bible that is illogical or that argues with logic. Trying to find three gods in one head, never made any sense to me.
When I saw it depicted, it gave me the creeps.....that is not the God that Jesus loves and serves.

They call themselves “Father” and “son”.....something that we humans understand well, but something that is not experienced in heaven like it is here on earth. God created his spirit sons individually, whereas we humans reproduce our own kind from the mechanisms in our own bodies that make that possible. We don’t choose our children any more than they can choose us. Conception is a random event and the union of egg and sperm results in what we are given to raise and to nurture. Sometimes we hit the jackpot and produce a wonderful human being, but we can also be dealt a blow by having a wayward child who is disobedient and prone to cause trouble in a household.....

Free will is what God gave all of his children, both in heaven and on earth. This 7th day that is still to end, will have shown God what kind of persons we all turn out to be.....the devil was perfect at first, but abused his free will by giving in to selfish ambition....he was discontent with his lot in life and wanted to change it for something better. An opportunity opened up for him with the creation of lower creatures who were intelligent...he saw that they could regard him as a “god” and give him worship.....if he could get them to disobey the true God and separate them from their Creator, he could have them do his bidding.....

He approached Eve whom he tempted to desire something better than what God had already given them, and in her seemingly successful disobedience, she tempted her husband to join her, and the rest is what we all know as life in this satanically controlled world. (1 John 5:19)

With the devil so active in the world, in his final moments, it is so important to read our scripture carefully.....
The roaring lion is relentless.....

 

[Cassandra]

Yes, she is Orthodox.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, she is Orthodox.

That means that she already accepts the trinity and would not be looking for any flaws in the teaching….
I really feel for those who accept it without question…..we must question everything because our eternal future depends on the truth….on knowing God and his son, (John 17:3) not on some men’s interpretation of who they are, that causes the Bible to contradict itself.
There can be no contradiction, yet the trinity creates so many….

 

[TheHC]

First off, my cousin, when I asked…..

Who was Jesus’ God?

You replied correctly…

The Father! Quite simple.

Yes, it is simple.
But then, you say….

Jesus is my God

Shouldn’t you follow Jesus’ example, and worship Who he worshipped? — John 17:3 John 4:23; John 20:17

Solely? — Ex.20:2-6.

By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses do obey Christ as their Savior.

 

[TheHC]

One more denial of the validity of His Words. The fact is Jesus is YHWH, He is God. It's all over the Bible.

Much love!

No. “For God loved the world so much that He gave His only-begotten Son….” — John 3:16.


Why is this simple truth so hard to accept?

 

[Runningman]

What makes you think it can't happen??? Isaiah said it will. It will!

Didn’t happen by anyone with any authority. God didn't say it, Jesus didn’t say it, the disciples didn’t say it.

That’s a clue Isaiah 9:6 isn’t translated correctly.

Here’s how Brenton’s Septuagint Translation (LXX) words it.

Esias 9
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.


Here’s how the Biblical Unitarians Translate it in the Revised English Version.

Isaiah 9
For a child will be born to us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will call his name
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero,
Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.

Out of all I have seen I think the LXX seems most accurate.

 

[Jack]

First off, my cousin, when I asked…..

You replied correctly…

Yes, it is simple.
But then, you say….

Shouldn’t you follow Jesus’ example, and worship Who he worshipped? — John 17:3 John 4:23; John 20:17

The JW Bible says: Heb 1 Let ALL God's angels WORSHIP him. Michael is an angel. He WORSHIPS Jesus!

Solely? — Ex.20:2-6.

By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses do obey Christ as their Savior.

When did that start, yesterday? Michael is the JW savior. Jesus is the Christian Savior.

 

[Jack]

Didn’t happen by anyone with any authority. God didn't say it, Jesus didn’t say it, the disciples didn’t say it.

That’s a clue Isaiah 9:6 isn’t translated correctly.

You're a Hebrew expert? Nah.

Here’s how Brenton’s Septuagint Translation (LXX) words it.

Esias 9
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Here’s how the Biblical Unitarians Translate it in the Revised English Version.

Isaiah 9
For a child will be born to us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will call his name
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero,
Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.

Out of all I have seen I think the LXX seems most accurate.

Ho hum

Isaiah 9:6 (DRV)
6 God the Mighty,

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CSBBible)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (GW)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (MLB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NET1)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6Mighty-God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 "The Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 "Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 Mighty God,

 

[Wrangler]

Michael is the JW savior. Jesus is the Christian Savior.

Is this what you say or what JW say?

 

[Runningman]

You're a Hebrew expert? Nah.


Ho hum

Isaiah 9:6 (DRV)
6 God the Mighty,

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CSBBible)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (CEV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (GW)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (MLB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NET1)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6Mighty-God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 Mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 "The Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 "Mighty God,"

Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 The mighty God,

Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 Mighty God,

You could quote an infinite number of versions/translations of Isaiah 9:6 and the result wouldn't change.

The matter is Isaiah 9:6 doesn't call Jesus mighty God. It says he will be called that and then he was never called that.

Isaiah 9​

6For unto us a child is born,​

unto us a son is given,​

and the government will be upon His shoulders.​

And He will be called...​

All of the versions/translations I have seen say this will happen in the future tense. That never happened and that is a problem. It's a problem not because I know Jesus isn't God, but because it makes it look like Isaiah's prophecy failed in our Bible. I am going to go with alternative translations of Isaiah 9:6 that have Biblical accuracy.

 

[Jack]

You could quote an infinite number of versions/translations of Isaiah 9:6 and the result wouldn't change.

Of course it wouldn't. Jesus is the Mighty God! That certainly won't change!

The matter is Isaiah 9:6 doesn't call Jesus mighty God. It says he will be called that and then he was never called that.

Isaiah 9​

6For unto us a child is born,​

unto us a son is given,​

and the government will be upon His shoulders.​

And He will be called...​

All of the versions/translations I have seen say this will happen in the future tense. That never happened and that is a problem. It's a problem not because I know Jesus isn't God, but because it makes it look like Isaiah's prophecy failed in our Bible. I am going to go with alternative translations of Isaiah 9:6 that have Biblical accuracy.

Have your read the JW bible?

Is 9:6 For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Jack]

Is this what you say or what JW say?

Ask them if Michael is their Savior. Let us know what they say.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You could quote an infinite number of versions/translations of Isaiah 9:6 and the result wouldn't change.

The matter is Isaiah 9:6 doesn't call Jesus mighty God. It says he will be called that and then he was never called that.

Isaiah 9​

6For unto us a child is born,​

unto us a son is given,​

and the government will be upon His shoulders.​

And He will be called...​

All of the versions/translations I have seen say this will happen in the future tense. That never happened and that is a problem. It's a problem not because I know Jesus isn't God, but because it makes it look like Isaiah's prophecy failed in our Bible. I am going to go with alternative translations of Isaiah 9:6 that have Biblical accuracy.

All of the titles that the son of God would carry, have significant meaning.....the fact that he is called “Mighty God” (El Gib·bohrʹ) not “Almighty God” (El Shad·daiʹ) is significant since the word “god” (el) is applied to more than just Yahweh and Jesus. Angels are called “gods” (elo·himʹ) and so were human judges in Israel. (John 10:31-36)
How many Bible characters carry “el” in their names....”Immanu”el”.... Samu”el”... Jemu”el”...“El”ijah”...and many others.
Jesus called his Father “the only true God” (John 17:3) but never once said that he was “God” (capital “G”)
“Theos in Greek” also has a broader meaning than Christendom wants to acknowledge.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ask them if Michael is their Savior. Let us know what they say.

Since the Bible indicates that Jesus has many names, depending on the role he is assigned, as the Commander of the angels, Micheal could well be the prehuman Jesus....who is also said to command the angels......”Jesus” is the name given to him only as a human. Upon his return to heaven, he gained another new name...better than the one he had before....(Phil 2:9; Rev 3:12) Does God need to give himself a new name when he has never gone by any other name than Yahweh/ Jehovah, as your “Christian Bible” indicates?
“Jehovah” is the “Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

Your blind beliefs don’t hold water but still you hold onto them like a drowning man clinging to a piece of floating debris after a shipwreck.....the life boat is there, but you refuse to enter it because someone told you it has leaks....and though you can’t see their boat sinking...you still prefer the piece of debris....and hypothermia is setting in.......go figure....what if it’s you who has been fed ancient lies that will lead to the death you often forecast for others?
1 Cor 10:12...

 

[Runningman]

All of the titles that the son of God would carry, have significant meaning.....the fact that he is called “Mighty God” (El Gib·bohrʹ) not “Almighty God” (El Shad·daiʹ) is significant since the word “god” (el) is applied to more than just Yahweh and Jesus. Angels are called “gods” (elo·himʹ) and so were human judges in Israel. (John 10:31-36)
How many Bible characters carry “el” in their names....”Immanu”el”.... Samu”el”... Jemu”el”...“El”ijah”...and many others.
Jesus called his Father “the only true God” (John 17:3) but never once said that he was “God” (capital “G”)
“Theos in Greek” also has a broader meaning than Christendom wants to acknowledge.

Well said, and even Jesus said such himself.

Matt 27
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Then in Psalm 22, know who the God Jesus referring to is?