A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd

[St. SteVen]

Patrick1966 said:
I've shown you innumerable times and you reject the scriptures.

Well, let's me and you go to the Scripture and find out who's doing the rejecting!

LOL
Hello Charlie.

Hello Patrick,
You probably remember the topic Charlie did to answer UR scripture favorites.
Our friend, God bless him, is completely inflexible in his views. He won't concede anything. (in my experience)
But perhaps you have what it takes to reach him. I'll back you up. (if need be) You have my support either way.
And so does Charlie, for that matter. I respect anyone who has done their homework and arrived at a conclusion.

 

[St. SteVen]

Because "wages of sin is death" that is a Law of God!

They ignored it and didn't seek God's forgiveness.

Didn't Jesus pay the death penalty for us on the cross?

 

[St. SteVen]

Yep. God refines

He refines those that are his.

But those who are not his, he will cast into our darkness.

The gates to the New Jerusalem are:
- Always closed?
or,
- Always open?

 

[St. SteVen]

For correction and purification.

Exactly.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[St. SteVen]

Show us that from Scripture. Patrick!

Still looking for the meat grinder to prove that the sausage is real, I see.

Psalm 34:8 NIV
Taste and see that the Lord is good...

 

[St. SteVen]

Patrick1966 said:
Nope. Hell is punitive but it's punitive for the purpose of correction. It is also purifying, restorative, and a temporary process.

Show us that from Scripture. Patrick!

If it isn't true, what does that say about God's character?

God has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
Is God NOT in the business of reconciliation Himself? Only us?

Why didn't God give us the ministry of punishment and sadistic torture?
Wouldn't that be a godly ministry in your view?

God was reconciling whom? The Elect? (nope)
The world. Not counting people's sins against them.
What is left to pay?

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NIV
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through
Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ,
not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The gates to the New Jerusalem are:
- Always closed?
or,
- Always open?

To whome?

to those who believe, it will always be home

to those who have not believes, and were cast to outer darkness. They will never see the new jerusalem.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks for giving us the party line. Blame the victim.

Thats what the word of God does

Jesus died for them.

They rejected him, he did not reject them

God is a perfectly righteous judge. He cant go against hs own justice. He demands a payment for sin.

Hey made that payment himself. And will give it to whoever wants it. But he will not force you to take it. Its on you to say yes lord

If you leave this world having never said yes. Thats no you. Not on God.

 

[St. SteVen]

To whome?

to those who believe, it will always be home

to those who have not believes, and were cast to outer darkness. They will never see the new jerusalem.

God's plan for the vast majority of those created in his image?
Seems rather short-sighted for an omniscient God.

Thats what the word of God does

According to your understanding. (interpretive opinion)

Jesus died for them.

They rejected him, he did not reject them

Blame the victim. I'm familiar with that apologetic.
Does that make you feel better?

God is a perfectly righteous judge. He cant go against hs own justice. He demands a payment for sin.

Hey made that payment himself. And will give it to whoever wants it. But he will not force you to take it. Its on you to say yes lord

Isn't that a contradictory statement?
First you say: "He demands a payment for sin." (as "righteous judge")
Then you say: He "made that payment himself."

If you leave this world having never said yes. Thats no you. Not on God.

Another popular apologetic. Salvation is up to us. (nope)

 

[Grailhunter]

Interesting post, thanks.

Agreed.

Perfect threat for spiritual extortion by the church. Do what we say, or else.

Just to be clear, Christian Universalists do not claim that anyone gets into heaven full of evil.
Even Christians will need correction and restoration. Jesus said it best.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Are you claiming that those not on the side of a forever burning hell with no hope of escape are on the side of evil?

We do not know how many horrors are in Hell. ...
Fire is the worst thing these people could understand.....what if it is actually 10 times worse? ...

Perfect threat for spiritual extortion by the church. Do what we say, or else.

Extortion by the church? Extortion by the Bible? Some people have problems with authority....obedience.....ramifications...
Both Judaism and Christianity are based on respect for God and obedience....and there are ramifications.
In the Old Testament it was....kill all that breathes and do not forget the babies.
In the New Testament it is....“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
War is hell! God hates evil
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Proverbs 6:16-19

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. Psalms 5:4-5

Hate evil, and love good, and establish justice in the gate; it may be that the Lord, the God of hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph. Amos 5:15

Just to be clear, Christian Universalists do not claim that anyone gets into heaven full of evil.
Even Christians will need correction and restoration. Jesus said it best.

LOL Describe that process as an event. How does God make you good....
If you are going to control that, why not make everyone good from the beginning.....it would save a lot of bloodshed and evil.
From the beginning and always it has always be free-will.
Those in the family of God are not puppets!

Are you claiming that those not on the side of a forever burning hell with no hope of escape are on the side of evil?

Yes.
What side are you on if you are against God and the Bible?
There is no side of knowing that there is an eternal punishment of hell fire.
Christianity is not about what you like or do not like...it is about what is.
If you preaching that there is no eternal punishment of hell fire, you are calling Christ and the Apostles liars. That will not go unpunished.
Tell them to pack the barbeque sauce in your casket....
People like to play word games with the Bible....but you will not get away with that with me because I know the languages.
Whether you believe in hell fire or not....is something that you will find out, but preaching a different Gospel than that of Christ and Apostles involves a curse. And if you preach something that leads others to Hell you are piling hot coals on your own head.

The belief that there is no Hell has been defeated on this forum several times.
The first thing they try is deception....which gives away their character and intent. They try to twist and confuse the Word of God but it does not work for those that know the languages. Cult leaders pray on the ignorance of others...."The Bible does not mean what it says!" "Christ was just a man, not a God." "God is monstrous puppet master." You can do whatever you want and go to Heaven as long as you believe in Christ." It goes along with a whole list of false beliefs.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God's plan for the vast majority of those created in his image?
Seems rather short-sighted for an omniscient God.

According to your understanding. (interpretive opinion)

Blame the victim. I'm familiar with that apologetic.
Does that make you feel better?

Isn't that a contradictory statement?
First you say: "He demands a payment for sin." (as "righteous judge")
Then you say: He "made that payment himself."

Another popular apologetic. Salvation is up to us. (nope)

Well keep going the way you are going and keep making excuses.

You will see for yourself when you meet him face to face..

 

[St. SteVen]

Extortion by the church?

We seem to be blind to what the church is doing to us.
Turning our loving heavenly Father into something that resembles
a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse.
The threat of hell as a fear tactic.

A gospel that looks like this:
Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well keep going the way you are going and keep making excuses.

You will see for yourself when you meet him face to face..

That sounds like a threat. What are you insinuating exactly?

 

[St. SteVen]

LOL Describe that process as an event. How does God make you good....
If you are going to control that, why not make everyone good from the beginning.....it would save a lot of bloodshed and evil.

As if your suggested alternative is better?
Eternal torture for those that refuse a "free gift"?
What's free about that?

 

[Grailhunter]

We seem to be blind to what the church is doing to us.
Turning our loving heavenly Father into something that resembles
a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse.
The threat of hell as a fear tactic.

A gospel that looks like this:
Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrote there own Bible.....maybe you can improve upon that and start your own religion. Lord knows there are enough of them.....a kinder gentler Christianity....where you live and let live and anything goes and you still go to Heaven.

 

[Grailhunter]

C

As if your suggested alternative is better?
Eternal torture for those that refuse a "free gift"?
What's free about that?

Again, Christianity and reality is not about what you like or do not like.

 

[St. SteVen]

What side are you on if you are against God and the Bible?

Why do you assume that about me? Do you have any idea what I believe?

The belief that there is no Hell has been defeated on this forum several times.

Sorry I was late to the party. Maybe next time?

 

[St. SteVen]

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrote there own Bible.....maybe you can improve upon that and start your own religion. Lord knows there are enough of them.....a kinder gentler Christianity....where you live and let live and any goes and you still go to Heaven.

Christian Universalism is not a new idea. It was a dominant theology in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[St. SteVen]

The belief that there is no Hell has been defeated on this forum several times.

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgment. Which one do you ascribe to?
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption (UR)

The first thing they try is deception....which gives away their character and intent.

Yes. By their fruits... (I'll be examining yours)

They try to twist and confuse the Word of God but it does not work for those that know the languages.

Why did you capitalize the "W" in "Word of God"?
Are you referring to the pre-incarnate Christ?

Cult leaders pray on the ignorance of others....

Indeed. So does the Christian church at times.

"The Bible does not mean what it says!"

Do you claim that there are no disagreements among Christians in regard
to translation problems, or differences in interpretive opinion?

"Christ was just a man, not a God."

I believe in the deity of Christ. I have yet to meet a UR proponent that doesn't.

"God is monstrous puppet master."

That seems an exaggerated claim. Did someone actually say that? - LOL
Certainly not the position of a UR proponent. None that I have met anyway.

You can do whatever you want and go to Heaven as long as you believe in Christ."

Many Christians seem to believe that. Do you believe in a works salvation? Earn your way?

It goes along with a whole list of false beliefs.

What makes something a "false belief" in your view? That you don't agree with it?
There is a pretty wide gamut of beliefs within Christianity. There is no consensus.

Here's where I am coming from.
I respect anyone that has done their homework and arrived at a conclusion on these things.
Build bridges, not walls. Can you live with that? Or do you prefer to view me as an enemy?

 

[St. SteVen]

C

Again, Christianity and reality is not about what you like or do not like.

What I really don't like is when the character of God is maligned.
Are you okay with that?