A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[atpollard]

What does this mean to you?

1 Corinthians 15:25 YLT
25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --

Nothing at all.

I have no interest in verses plucked from their context. This verse isn’t even a complete sentence, you have plucked a PHRASE out of a sentence to build a doctrine upon. That is a very poor foundation.

I suspect that the entire paragraph that it was taken from says something wonderful and that I agree with it. (That is what I typically find in scripture.)

 

[Keiw]

Luke 16:19-31 certainly appears as if Jesus taught it as literal.

symbolism.

 

[Patrick1966]

Nothing at all.

I have no interest in verses plucked from their context. This verse isn’t even a complete sentence, you have plucked a PHRASE out of a sentence to build a doctrine upon. That is a very poor foundation.

I suspect that the entire paragraph that it was taken from says something wonderful and that I agree with it. (That is what I typically find in scripture.)

You wish to persuade but are unwilling yourself to be persuaded. Your pride and vanity disallow it. I won't engage you further. God bless you and good luck.

 

[atpollard]

symbolism.

John 3:11-13 [NKJV] 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is], the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Since Jesus had knowledge of the truth, what purpose would he have to create a ‘lie’ (false narrative) to illustrate a point when He could have used a true (accurate) narrative? It has more of the ring of a true story than imaginary symbolism.

 

[Keiw]

John 3:11-13 [NKJV] 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is], the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Since Jesus had knowledge of the truth, what purpose would he have to create a ‘lie’ (false narrative) to illustrate a point when He could have used a true (accurate) narrative? It has more of the ring of a true story than imaginary symbolism.

He taught those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction---not eternal life of suffering. There is no life in death.

 

[Patrick1966]

He taught those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction---not eternal life of suffering. There is no life in death.

Are you suggesting that those thrown into the LOF simply cease to exist?

 

[Keiw]

Are you suggesting that those thrown into the LOF simply cease to exist?

Everlasting destruction. Matt 10:28

 

[Patrick1966]

Everlasting destruction. Matt 10:28

How can that be when this verse says that Jesus saves ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[atpollard]

How can that be when this verse says that Jesus saves ALL people?

Revelation 7:9-10 [NASB95]
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

... SALVATION: It isn't just for Jews any more.

 

[Keiw]

How can that be when this verse says that Jesus saves ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

His sacrifice opened the door to all people-He teaches-Few will find the road that leads off into life( be saved)--The living God= YHWH(Jehovah) not Jesus.-- Jesus is the son of the living God Matt 16:16)

 

[Patrick1966]

Few will find the road...

Of course, but that doesn't mean that God won't say "Hey, over here dummy!" and save them anyway.

Remember, the only way that men can follow Jesus is if God wills them to do so.

John 6:44

English Standard Version

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44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Keiw]

Of course, but that doesn't mean that God won't say "Hey, over here dummy!" and save them anyway.

Remember, the only way that men can follow Jesus is if God wills them to do so.

John 6:44​

​

English Standard Version​

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44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Only those who obey will be saved. Not pick and choose but Jesus taught--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God. And without fail the teachers that have Jesus do just that. Teach the flock every utterance=OT-NT over and over. Year after year. It never stops. So any can look at their teachers and see if they belong to Jesus.

 

[Patrick1966]

Only those who obey will be saved.

So faith alone is insufficient. One must perfectly walk the narrow path prescribed by Jesus or Jesus will torture them forever in Hell, right?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

One must perfectly walk the narrow path prescribed by Jesus

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)

or Jesus will torture them forever in Hell, right?

Right.

 

[Patrick1966]

Works-based salvation.

How much are we obligated to give to the local preacher in order to go to Heaven?

 

[Patrick1966]

Everlasting destruction. Matt 10:28

I missed the part of "everlasting destruction" in Matthew 10:28.

ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Keiw]

So faith alone is insufficient. One must perfectly walk the narrow path prescribed by Jesus or Jesus will torture them forever in Hell, right?

Jesus said-those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed. Obeying is proof of ones love and faith.

 

[Keiw]

I missed the part of "everlasting destruction" in Matthew 10:28.

ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Hebrew word Sheol = the Greek word Hades-both translate-the grave--Hades =hell. Everlasting death or destruction.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are sadly mistaken sir in your false reasonings. Jesus is 100% clear-- Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction. --- Best to believe Jesus.

Few there be that find it? That can't be about the afterlife.
Would God play a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls?
To make sport of our spiritual condition? And then incinerate the losers?
What a horrible proposal for the meaning of that passage.

Best to believe Jesus?
Better to believe in Jesus, and honor his good character.

The one who taught us to love our enemies would not incinerate his own.
Unless, as you seem to suggest, he operates by a lower standard than he holds us to.

 

[atpollard]

Works-based salvation.

How much are we obligated to give to the local preacher in order to go to Heaven?

Nothing, I read the LAW ... it needs to go to the TEMPLE.