A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

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Keiw

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Few there be that find it? That can't be about the afterlife.
Would God play a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls?
To make sport of our spiritual condition? And then incinerate the losers?
What a horrible proposal for the meaning of that passage.

Best to believe Jesus?
Better to believe in Jesus, and honor his good character.

The one who taught us to love our enemies would not incinerate his own.
Unless, as you seem to suggest, he operates by a lower standard than he holds us to.
Not one belongs to God unless they learn and apply everything Jesus taught. He meant every word of it. Did you miss what God did to mortals in Noahs day? 99.9% wiped off of his earth. Jesus compares these last days to Noahs day-Luke 17:26=99% at minimum are mislead right now. Rev 16 shows--EVERY kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king at Armageddon-Rev 19 is the result.
 

St. SteVen

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Not one belongs to God unless they learn and apply everything Jesus taught. He meant every word of it. Did you miss what God did to mortals in Noahs day? 99.9% wiped off of his earth. Jesus compares these last days to Noahs day-Luke 17:26=99% at minimum are mislead right now. Rev 16 shows--EVERY kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king at Armageddon-Rev 19 is the result.
Apply everything Jesus taught? Saved by works? ???

The bit about Noah is a good question. Actual or metaphorical?
I'm still trying to sort out Genesis as literal, or figurative.

Sounds like heaven will be a ghost town compared to hell.
Quite a plan. (with malice and forethought)

Something terribly wrong with that view.
Wonder what happened to every tribe, tongue, and nation?
 

Keiw

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Apply everything Jesus taught? Saved by works? ???

The bit about Noah is a good question. Actual or metaphorical?
I'm still trying to sort out Genesis as literal, or figurative.

Sounds like heaven will be a ghost town compared to hell.
Quite a plan. (with malice and forethought)

Something terribly wrong with that view.
Wonder what happened to every tribe, tongue, and nation?
No actually the bible teaches--proof of ones love is by obeying. Only 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven( Rev 14:3)--The great crowd is promised earth-Matt 5:5, Prov 2:21-22, Psalm 37:29)--There are already millions of beings living in heaven.
God inspired the words of Genesis-they are fact.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through him= The Father is ones destination, to accomplish this-John 4:22-24
The way, truth and life= learning and applying every thing he taught--those will get life.
 

Keiw

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Are we required to prove our love?
What did Jesus say the 2 most important commandments were? To Love God and to love neighbor as self. And the bible teaches that proof of that love is by obeying.= obeying EVERY utterance from God.--(Job 1:8--a man blameless and upright)= a righteous man.
 

St. SteVen

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What did Jesus say the 2 most important commandments were? To Love God and to love neighbor as self. And the bible teaches that proof of that love is by obeying.= obeying EVERY utterance from God.--(Job 1:8--a man blameless and upright)= a righteous man.
Okay.
How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]
drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
 

face2face

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Another wrote this and I am simply pasting it here for your cognizance.


One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations. It is often incorrectly translated to mean “eternal” when in fact it means “age.” The absurdity of this bad translation can be seen in Revelation 14:11 where the phrase “aionios aionion” which means “age of the ages” is translated as “Forever and Ever.” You cannot add anything to forever because it is already an absolute measure of time. “The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished. Those who adhere to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment cannot argue about the meaning of this word. Anyone who studies the word meanings will agree that “aion” means “age” and that there is no individual word in Greek that specifically means “eternal.” Instead, they often claim correctly that you must take the word “aion” in context in order to determine whether it means age or eternity. However, they then erroneously infer that the context within the judgment passages is obviously that of eternity. They then argue that if judgment is not eternal, then no afterlife can be eternal since the word “aion” is used in both instances. In other words, “Since “aion” is used to describe both the period of judgment and the period of reward in the same context, how can you say that punishment is temporary and reward is permanent?” The answer is simple, even though you do see punishment and reward addressed together in some verses in which the word “aion” is used for both; there are other instances in which the writers of the New Testament do speak of eternity. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of eternity ever communicated in relation to judgment. Yet, the New Testament writers do speak of eternity in other contexts. As an example, Let us look at four verses from the New Testament book of Jude. Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. The Greek word for “everlasting” used in this verse is “aidios.” It is the adjective form of the adverb “aei” meaning “always, unceasingly, perpetually or on every occasion.” From this definition, it most certainly sounds like an unending period. Even so, in this context, the word “aidios” CANNOT mean “forever.” How do I know? The message is not extremely clear in Jude 1:6. However, we have a parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:4 which says: “God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment. (CEV) In this instance, Peter is much clearer than Jude is. He gives us an ending point for how long the sinning angels will be tied up. How long will they be in chains? “Until the time of judgment” Therefore the word “everlasting” as used in Jude 1:6 CANNOT mean forever. Jude 1:7 (NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Here the word “eternal” is “aion” meaning age. An age is an indefinite period of time, which could technically mean forever or it can just refer to either a specified or an unspecified period. As we discussed earlier, we need to look at the context of the verse in order to determine whether there is anything that might indicate the duration of that age. In this case, there is. The verse states that Sodom and Gomorrah “serve as an example of those who suffer eternal fire.” Therefore, if we want to know the ultimate effect or the ultimate duration of the “eternal fire” we must turn to Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. In what way is Sodom an example? Once again, let us look at the parallel verse in Peter 2:6: “Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.” When you combine what Jude said with what Peter said, it is obvious that the fire does not burn forever. A person who believes in conditionally immortality, the view that God will destroy the ungodly rather than tormenting them, would say that in this instance, the word “aion” speaks of eternality of consequence rather than eternality of duration. In other words, “The fire was eternal in that it completely accomplished its task and could not be quenched until it was finished.” This makes a lot of sense because obviously the fire is no longer burning. However, was the fire eternal in consequence as the annihilationist claims? Ezekiel 18:53-57 (NIV) However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. “What?” “Did he just say that God will restore Sodom?” Yes he did. If Sodom is an example of the consequence of “eternal fire”, if that fire fully accomplishes its purpose as God designed it too, and if God said that He would restore Sodom, then He will also restore ALL who experience that eternal fire. Therefore, in this instance, “aion” CANNOT refer to a duration of endless torture. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. The Greek word “aionios” in this passage is adjective meaning “age during.” Young’s Literal translates the verse this way: “Yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during” Our brothers and sisters who believe in eternal conscious torment would say, since you cannot assume that “life age-during” is eternal when dealing with punishment, you also cannot assume that Christians will have eternal life either. If you are reading this verse alone in context, they are right; there is nothing in this verse that indicates eternal life. Rightly so because this verse is not about eternal life. It is about age-during life. When is age-during life? It is life in the age of ages. Remember, the age of ages will serve a specific purpose and then a new age will begin. If the writers of the New Testament had intended to communicate punishment that was eternal, could they have done so? Yes! Can we know for sure that there is such a thing as eternal life? Yes! Jude knew the difference. Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The Greek word used here is still “aion” just as it is in all of the judgement passages where its meaning is age of ages. How then can I know that this same word means “forever” in this verse? I can know because of the usage of the Greek adjective “pas” meaning “all.” In Young’s Literal, the verse reads this way: To the only wise God our Saviour, [is] glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen. All of the ages is the equivalent of forever. How was “all” used in other scriptures?
Its refreshing to see a Bible Student apply careful reading of the text and cross reference passages to draw a fully understanding. You exhibit skills in this short exposition which few in this forum can - well done!

However
John 12:32 (ESV) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.

All is representative not literal, as you may be implying.

Let's look at John 2 for greater context.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever believes in him (conditional salvation) should not perish, but have eternal life.

Read John 3:8 So it is that everyone (not all!) who is born of the Spirit! (The Spirit does not blow on "all" people...that's Jesus' point!)

Many in Israel died unnecessarily because they didn't understand who God was, or fear His Word.

Numbers 21:6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

Likewise, many Christians will fail to look to Jesus and suffer the same judgement. Also, many will not know who the real Christ is when he comes, which add further weight to the Lords words.

The use of the word "ALL" then is significant of Jesus being the Son of Man who represented our nature in every way.

Read John 12:31-33; Eph 3:4-6. And as for their question: “Who is this ‘son of man’?” read John 12:34

So what do we learn about this idea of "ALL?"

The “lifting up” of Christ would prove 3 things
(1) that he was “God manifest” in his total rejection of self to declare God’s righteousness Read Rom 3:24-26
(2) That he could “do nothing by his own authority” – his supreme sacrifice could not have come from mere human sentiment John 5:19-23, 30; 7:16
(3) as “son of man” he is representative of all men John 12:31-33; Eph 3:4-6. Their question: “Who is this ‘son of man’?” John 12:34

Even today there are members here who dont know the anwser the that question though they presume to know.
 

Keiw

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Okay.
How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]
drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Mortals cannot perform miracles like Jesus. They can learn and apply every utterance from God to the best of their abilities. They can try to show the love Jesus portrayed( not so easy in a satan ruled system)-- If others drove spikes through your flesh because you were so loving as Jesus was--could you say--forgive them Father they know not what they do? I doubt i can. But i can LISTEN to Jesus as God told us to do- Luke 10--Acts 20:20--the most important work ever on this earth.
The JW,s do not receive pay to teach in the congregations or bible studies or out in field service. Its given free. No plates passed around at meetings.
 

Patrick1966

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Its refreshing to see a Bible Student apply careful reading of the text and cross reference passages to draw a fully understanding. You exhibit skills in this short exposition which few in this forum can - well done!
Thanks but the credit goes to the author. I was simply sharing his synopsis. :)
 

face2face

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No actually the bible teaches--proof of ones love is by obeying. Only 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven( Rev 14:3)
Keiw,

In Revelation 14:1 is the lamb a literal lamb, or symbolic?
In Revelation 14:1 Is Mount Zion literal or used as a symbol? See Gal. 4:24; Heb. 12:22
In Revelation 14:1 is the name literally written in their foreheads, like a tattoo, or symbolic of something far more important?

Now I could do this for the whole chapter - i.e the voice of many waters, the sickle etc etc but the reality you must and I mean you must come to acknowledge is the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not literal.

If you would like me to show you the remaining 19 verses in Revelation 14 which also contain symbolic imagery feel free to ask...but please refrain from misleading others and misrepresenting Scripture with your false traditions.

If you want to learn about the true meaning of this chapter by all means engage but please leave the traditions of men with your deceived elders thank you .

F2F
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Jesus Christ, Himself Almighty God, and the Highest Authority, DISAGREES with what you say!

One verse will prove that you are wrong

Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In both cases, the English word "eternal" (some translate one as "everlasting"), is the same Greek adjective, "αἰώνιος", which derives from "αἰών". The meaning in both places is exactly the same. There is no doubt that the Righteous will spend eternity, time without end, in heaven with the Lord. And, equally, the Unrighteous, will spend eternity, time without end, undergoing punishment. Even the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr Joseph Thayer, in his Greek lexicon, defines "αἰώνιος" in Matthew 25:46, as, " without end, never to cease, everlasting"

In verse 41 Jesus is clear what this "punishment" (κόλασιν) consists of in verse 46, where He says: "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". The Greek here is important, Jesus says, "τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον", which is literally, "THE fire THE eternal", with an emphasis on the ETERNAL duration of the fire.

Jesus' words to Judas is clear that He does not mean "eternal punishment" to be temporal. In the next chapter of Matthew, Jesus says of Judas: "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (verse 24)

It is BETTER that Judas were not even born, because of the place that he was going to after his death! Hardly can mean that he would "cease to exist", which would make the warning of Jesus pointless!

In Jude 7, we read of those who were destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by suffering a punishment of eternal fire"

Jude is writing thousands of years later, and yet uses the Greek "ὑπέχουσαι", which is the PRESENT tense! That is, "continuing to suffer", even when Jude was writing!
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:

Okay.
How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]
drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Mortals cannot perform miracles like Jesus.
Jesus performed miracles in his humanity, not in his deity.
He was a human conduit for divine power. The scripture above and other statements make this clear.
He told us to speak to the mountain.
 

Keiw

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Keiw,

In Revelation 14:1 is the lamb a literal lamb, or symbolic?
In Revelation 14:1 Is Mount Zion literal or used as a symbol? See Gal. 4:24; Heb. 12:22
In Revelation 14:1 is the name literally written in their foreheads, like a tattoo, or symbolic of something far more important?

Now I could do this for the whole chapter - i.e the voice of many waters, the sickle etc etc but the reality you must and I mean you must come to acknowledge is the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not literal.

If you would like me to show you the remaining 19 verses in Revelation 14 which also contain symbolic imagery feel free to ask...but please refrain from misleading others and misrepresenting Scripture with your false traditions.

If you want to learn about the true meaning of this chapter by all means engage but please leave the traditions of men with your deceived elders thank you .

F2F
144,000 is literal--to show this is not the great crowd which no man can number. Its the little flock( Luke 12:32)
 

Keiw

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St. SteVen said:

Okay.
How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]
drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Jesus performed miracles in his humanity, not in his deity.
He was a human conduit for divine power. The scripture above and other statements make this clear.
He told us to speak to the mountain.
Actually God did all those things through Jesus-Acts 2:22, 1 Cor 8:5-6
 

face2face

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144,000 is literal--to show this is not the great crowd which no man can number. Its the little flock( Luke 12:32)
So what you are saying is in a chapter which is full of symbology that one number you have decided is literal? Here is a challenge....show me something else in that chapter which is literal.
 

face2face

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144,000 is literal--to show this is not the great crowd which no man can number. Its the little flock( Luke 12:32)
But lets deal with your reference...unfortunately JW's have a way of twisting text for their own pleasure. Lets look at the Father's good pleasure shall we?

Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

This is the same spiritual flock which is repeated in Ezekiel 34 over and over mind you! And it's also the same spiritual flock referred to in Micah 7:14 "the flock of thine heritage" and is it a coincidence that Micah is quoted in Luke 12:52-53?

There is nothing at all here to support a literal 144,000 and certainly nowhere is it suggesting an elite minority going to heaven.

The great crowd; stars of heaven; sands of the seashore are all His Little Flock; The Flock of His heritage.

Nice try though!