A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Aunty Jane]

I already explained. I’m sure you read 1 Peter before.

When you say “we” and when the Bible writer says “we”.....these are two completely different groups of people.
The Christian scriptures were written by God’s elect, primarily for God’s elect.....so when the Bible writers like Peter or Paul said “we” they was addressing their fellow elect....the ones “chosen” by God and anointed with his spirit for life, and an important role, in heaven.

The majority of mankind will never see heaven. It was never God’s intention to take them there in the first place. The earth was specially designed to be our permanent home...a paradise to share with all God’s creatures. Until mankind sinned, there was no need for any human to go to heaven.....or to come from heaven to live in human flesh.
If we understand the mechanics of redemption, it is to restore what was forfeited. Everlasting human life was forfeited by Adam, and Jesus came in the flesh to buy back what was lost for his children, born in sin through no fault on their part.

Those chosen by God for a role in heaven had to be found faithful and obedient to God “unto death”.....that means no conduct unbecoming a Christian......it means not overstepping God laws and principles to benefit ourselves...not making excuses to do what God never sanctioned....to be “faithful in what is least” so that being “faithful also in much” will come naturally. (Luke 16:10)

Not exactly a Scriptural prohibition against celebrating birthdays, is it?

The principles are all there Wrangler and you have been shown the Bible’s viewpoint on adopting anything from false worship....”touch nothing unclean” was a directive and yet all of Christendom touches spiritually “unclean” celebrations with seeming impunity because they can justify those thing for themselves.....can we justify them to God is the important question. There are no worshippers of Jehovah who celebrated anyone’s birthday in the Bible. The reason for that is because Jews never celebrated birthdays......Jesus would not have celebrated his own birthday.

The discernment that is missing from JW doctrine is inferring divine commandments from merely cultural observations.

While circumcision was specifically a point of conflict recorded in Scripture, women wearing hats or dresses are, likewise customs that are not to be applied to new covenant believers. The same with women speaking at churches.

Again you miss the point....what is “culturally appropriated” as you call it, is nothing but justification for adopting something God could never approve. The Jews tried this on many times, and felt Jehovah’s wrath upon them for having the temerity to disregard the principles upon which all his laws were based.

Scripture does not indicate Jesus drove an automobile. Scripture does not indicate Jesus celebrated St Patrick’s Day. Scripture does not indicate Jesus attended modern sporting events. The lack of evidence for it being a prohibition is the fallacy appeal to ignorance. The same with other man-made cultural traditions, including celebrating birthdays.

Oh good grief! Now I’ve heard everything! Do you hear yourself? What pathetic reasoning for doing as you please whilst pointing out that there is no prohibition for such things. What Bible principles should guide our thinking on things that are not specifically stated?

You rail against what is not stated when it’s suits your beliefs.....the trinity is an example of this.

If JW’s don’t want to celebrate birthday’s, we all know it is not a requirement to be a Christian. It’d be nice if you and @Aunty Jane could simply admit it is not explicitly prohibited in Scripture.

There are many things that are not explicitly stated in scripture.....one for example, is smoking and other addictions.....where does the Bible condemn something that was not practiced in Bible times? It gives us principles to guide us.

Paul wrote...”Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

So here we have the principle.....we know now that smoking or other harmful addictions defile the flesh and can alter the mind, so we would avoid doing that because we would not deliberately want to pollute the body that God gave us.....yet some justify it for their own reasons........but Paul also mentions “defilement of the spirit”......things that defile us spiritually in God’s eyes. Would we want to participate in the very things his word tells us not to “touch”? (2 Cor 6:14-18)

What does it mean to “touch nothing unclean” in a spiritual sense? To us it means that if something is borrowed from pagan sources, renamed, and then justified to ourselves, it doesn’t mean that it has God’s approval, just because it has ours....does it?

We will all learn that soon enough, but it benefits no one to celebrate any of those pagan customs and festivals as if God turns a blind eye now, to what he expressed abhorrence for back when the pagans did it. He didn’t turn a blind eye for Israel, who felt his hot displeasure on many occasions when they tried him to the limit over what they chose to do, even at one point sacrificing their own children to a false god. Because they were not faithful in what is least, the devil led them to gross infractions of his law.....gradually through justification, Israel became the very opposite of what their God commanded them to be. We therefore have a prime example in Israel’s conduct of what NOT to do, if we want Jehovah’s favour.

Again your choices are yours to make.....as our choices are, so we have to know what those choices can lead to if we want what God is offering......continuing life is conditional as it always has been.....dependent upon our obedience to our Creator......it is all he has ever asked of us from day one.

 

[Wrangler]

you have been shown the Bible’s viewpoint on adopting anything from false worship.

And you have ignored the fact that celebrating birthdays today is no kind of worship.

 

[Wrangler]

When you say “we” and when the Bible writer says “we”.....these are two completely different groups of people.

No, ‘we’ refer to the same elect. Not sure where you get that idea from.

 

[Wrangler]

Again you miss the point....what is “culturally appropriated” as you call it, is nothing but justification for adopting something God could never approve.

Frankly, you don’t know that.

 

[Wrangler]

What pathetic reasoning for doing as you please whilst pointing out that there is no prohibition for such things.

Wrong. You are turning freedom on its head.

2 Corinthians 3:17​

where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.​

 

[Wrangler]

You rail against what is not stated when it’s suits your beliefs.....the trinity is an example of this.

You keep falsely comparing celebrating birthdays to this heresy. Scripture is silent on celebrating birthday’s. Scripture is NOT silent on YHWH being one (not 3-in-1). See the difference?

 

[Wrangler]

There are many things that are not explicitly stated in scripture..... It gives us principles to guide us.

Lady! If these implicit principle were as clear as you infer, there would be no denomination.

The lack of humility is telling! I hold various doctrines as true but don’t claim other Christian’s not holding them are going to hell - aka, the broad road.

 

[Wrangler]

What does it mean to “touch nothing unclean” in a spiritual sense? To us it means that if something is borrowed from pagan sources, renamed, and then justified to ourselves, it doesn’t mean that it has God’s approval, just because it has ours....does it?

Who told you that you were naked?! Yours is a work based path to salvation. Not recognizing cultural appropriation does not mean it is not real.

Successful ideologies do it. Unsuccessful ideologies reject it. See Romans 14. V22 specifically says regarding cultural things Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. What principle are you advancing here?

Of all the successful ideologies in human history, Christianity is remarkably adapt at invoking cultural appropriation. It’s so bizarre that you are relying on OT laws, which never applied to Gentiles and staunchly assert they apply to New Covenant believers.

 

[Wrangler]

So here we have the principle.....we know now that smoking or other harmful addictions defile the flesh and can alter the mind, so we would avoid doing that because we would not deliberately want to pollute the body that God gave us....

Our lord drank wine! You are so off the mark. I weep for the oppression of JW victims.

 

[Adam]

In argument against the idea of bodily ressurection and a physical kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In argument against Jesus not drinking alcohol:

Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

[Aunty Jane]

And you have ignored the fact that celebrating birthdays today is no kind of worship.

Everything about it is "appropriated" as you said.....so what was appropriated? The trappings.....IOW all the customs associated with false worship which were part of the original observation, but without the original meaning? That makes it OK with Jehovah, does it?

What does "appropriated" mean?

Dictionary definition....."appropriated"....
"the act of taking something for your own use, usually without permission".
I'd say that pretty much sums it up....

You can do whatever you wish Wrangler.....giving your excuses to me won't help. I won't touch these things with a barge pole.....but you are free to embrace them if you like.....it doesn't make any difference to me.

Of all the successful ideologies in human history, Christianity is remarkably adapt at invoking cultural appropriation. It’s so bizarre that you are relying on OT laws, which never applied to Gentiles and staunchly assert they apply to New Covenant believers.

"Christianity"? or "Churchianity"....there is a big difference. True Christianity got lost for centuries whilst the "weeds" appropriated all manner of false religious activities, disguising them as something approved by God. And, since "the church" took the word of God away from the people, no one had an opportunity to determine for themselves that what they were being taught was actually the truth. They were not permitted to read God's word, or even to posses a copy under penalty of death....

Our lord drank wine! You are so off the mark. I weep for the oppression of JW victims.

No Wrangler, I am not off the mark. Wine was customarily served with a meal in Jewish households...it was not an appropriation from somewhere else. The Bible was also clear on the use of alcohol in moderation......drinking was not condemned....but drunkenness was.

You weep for our "oppression"??? Oh dear....poor JW's....prevented from denigrating their God and dishonoring his Christ by not celebrating things that God told us not to touch....O the tragedy of their victimhood.....
I weep for your slavery Wrangler.....you can't even see or feel the shackles.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not exactly a Scriptural prohibition against celebrating birthdays, is it?

The discernment that is missing from JW doctrine is inferring divine commandments from merely cultural observations.

While circumcision was specifically a point of conflict recorded in Scripture, women wearing hats or dresses are, likewise customs that are not to be applied to new covenant believers. The same with women speaking at churches.

Scripture does not indicate Jesus drove an automobile. Scripture does not indicate Jesus celebrated St Patrick’s Day. Scripture does not indicate Jesus attended modern sporting events. The lack of evidence for it being a prohibition is the fallacy appeal to ignorance. The same with other man-made cultural traditions, including celebrating birthdays.

If JW’s don’t want to celebrate birthday’s, we all know it is not a requirement to be a Christian. It’d be nice if you and @Aunty Jane could simply admit it is not explicitly prohibited in Scripture.

Not exactly a Scriptural prohibition against celebrating birthdays, is it?

The discernment that is missing from JW doctrine is inferring divine commandments from merely cultural observations.

While circumcision was specifically a point of conflict recorded in Scripture, women wearing hats or dresses are, likewise customs that are not to be applied to new covenant believers. The same with women speaking at churches.

Scripture does not indicate Jesus drove an automobile. Scripture does not indicate Jesus celebrated St Patrick’s Day. Scripture does not indicate Jesus attended modern sporting events. The lack of evidence for it being a prohibition is the fallacy appeal to ignorance. The same with other man-made cultural traditions, including celebrating birthdays.

If JW’s don’t want to celebrate birthday’s, we all know it is not a requirement to be a Christian. It’d be nice if you and @Aunty Jane could simply admit it is not explicitly prohibited in Scripture.

And you have ignored the fact that celebrating birthdays today is no kind of worship.

The roots of birthdays are contaminated with what belongs to demons. It's in the scriptures we are to touch nothing unclean, and anything that has to do with demons, is definitely unclean.

 

[The Learner]

In argument against the idea of bodily ressurection and a physical kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In argument against Jesus not drinking alcohol:

Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Fact is all Jewish People of his time drank wine, Jesus never got drunk. I have a Jewish background and drinking wine with Dinner has always been common in Judaism. Luke 7:34 is a false acussation of over eathing and getting drunk. Jesus even made good wine.

 

[RLT63]

The roots of birthdays are contaminated with what belongs to demons. It's in the scriptures we are to touch nothing unclean, and anything that has to do with demons, is definitely unclean.

https://www.amazon.com/Barney-Happy-Birthday-Carey-Stinson/dp/B07CQKKFJ8/ref=asc_df_B07CQKKFJ8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312114908841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17370607920610444113&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013074&hvtargid=pla-571037238657&psc=1#immersive-view_1670678954769

 

[Wrangler]

I understand that JW’s are opposed to giving Thanksgiving. What?!

Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789​

DOWNLOAD
By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.
Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.
Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.
and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.
Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.
Go: Washington

 

[Wrangler]

The roots of birthdays are contaminated with what belongs to demons.

Pure fiction.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I understand that JW’s are opposed to giving Thanksgiving. What?!

What indeed Wrangler.....why would those who are told not to involve themselves in a world ruled by the devil, (1 John 5:19) be careful to steer clear of anything that was both “religious” AND connected to the constitution of any political nation? Church and state is an unholy alliance.

John 17:14-19.....Jesus said....
“I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world as I am no part of the world”.

15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.”

Do you understand the principle of neutrality......? It means not taking sides.....if you have a conscientious objection to what your nation is doing, (celebrating fake religious holidays, or going to war and bombing innocent women and children in the name of freedom) or whatever the world at large is doing.....when they try to enforce something that we personally disagree with, then we must because of our conscience, refrain from involvement....no matter what the consequences are. No one can be forced to violate their God-given conscience.

The exact same principle applies here as it does with Christmas and Easter......this holiday has its roots in what we believe is false worship and the unholy alliance of church and state. Never will the two blend for us.

It is yet another “tradition of men”, NOT any command from God or from Christ, or the scriptures.

If it is your desire to participate...no one is stopping you....but we believe that someone is stopping us from being drawn into yet another worldly tradition that is slavishly celebrated year after year and benefits no one....except perhaps those who can still afford the trappings of a sumptuous feast so close to Christmas.....in full knowledge of the fact that these people are increasing by the day....(in case you haven’t noticed.) What do the poor and homeless have to be “thankful” for? Please tell me.....Why is God ignoring their prayers?

By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.
Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

This “holy day” is nothing to do with me Wrangler.....I am not American and therefore I am not interested in your national celebrations. My brothers in your country are governed by their own conscience in this matter.

But this little quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica concerning “Thanksgiving” is revealing....

“The New England colonists were accustomed to regularly celebrating “Thanksgivings,” days of prayer thanking God for blessings such as military victory or the end of a drought.”

Let me stop it right there.....since when is God responsible for military victories when his Christian worshippers are now found in all nations? Whose side does God take when Christians are slaughtering Christians of a different nation? Please tell me....

And since when is God responsible for weather events that dry up certain lands or drown others with floods, hurricanes or tornados?
Is God responsible for the famines and the loss of lives due to these events? If you thank him on one hand, then you must also blame him on the other. Is this not obvious to y’all? Are you so indoctrinated that you cannot see past the brainwashing that has taken place with the citizens of many nations since birth?
“My country right or wrong” was never a Christian teaching.

“The U.S. Continental Congress proclaimed a national Thanksgiving upon the enactment of the Constitution, for example. Yet, after 1798, the new U.S. Congress left Thanksgiving declarations to the states; some objected to the national government’s involvement in a religious observance, Southerners were slow to adopt a New England custom, and others took offense over the day’s being used to hold partisan speeches and parades. A national Thanksgiving Day seemed more like a lightning rod for controversy than a unifying force.”
Any surprises there? Seems as if the Pilgrims were quite vocal about the union of church and state.

In summary it says....

“Thanksgiving Day, annual national holiday in the United States and Canada celebrating the harvest and other blessings of the past year. Americans generally believe that their Thanksgiving is modeled on a 1621 harvest feast shared by the English colonists (Pilgrims) of Plymouth and the Wampanoag people. The American holiday is particularly rich in legend and symbolism, and the traditional fare of the Thanksgiving meal typically includes turkey, bread stuffing, potatoes, cranberries, and pumpkin pie. With respect to vehicular travel, the holiday is often the busiest of the year, as family members gather with one another. Thanksgiving Day is celebrated on Thursday, November 24, 2022.”

So who were these Pilgrims or Puritans, Wrangler?
Here is another interesting quote......

“the pilgrims . . .were Puritan Separatists, fleeing the Church of England, in search of a land where they could be religiously free. . . .

The early pilgrims did not observe Christmas or Easter because they saw these holidays as creations of man, and they were not referenced in the Bible, or observed by early Christian churches.”

Well there you go.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Pure fiction.

Food for thought here....not fiction at all.

Pump It Up Party

 

[Aunty Jane]

https://www.amazon.com/Barney-Happy-Birthday-Carey-Stinson/dp/B07CQKKFJ8/ref=asc_df_B07CQKKFJ8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312114908841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17370607920610444113&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013074&hvtargid=pla-571037238657&psc=1#immersive-view_1670678954769

That is very disrespectful RLT......beneath you.

 

[Wrangler]

why would those who are told not to involve themselves in a world ruled by the devil, (1 John 5:19) be careful to steer clear of anything that was both “religious” AND connected to the constitution of any political nation? Church and state is an unholy alliance

Weirder all the time. The verse you cite does not say anything like what you claim. How you equate:
We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.

To mean don’t give thanks to God is a bizarre stretch.

The real purpose seems to be to culturally isolate yourselves from those you are commanded to reach by any means that may work. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 easily applies to celebrating Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Independence Day - to save those who do.

As well as isolate your members.

What an absurd idea to say that George Washington, a Christian leader of a Christian nation proclaiming unity in giving thanks to our Creator for many blessings = an unholy alliance between Church and State. Obviously, you have to stretch things to support your anti-cultural agenda. Sad. I’ll pray for you.