A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Wrangler]

Do you understand the principle of neutrality......? It means not taking sides

The principle of neutrality cannot apply to yourself when you are on a side!

People do not ONLY have loyalty to their religious convictions. I have loyalty to my family, neighborhood, city, county, State, federation, alma mater, home teams, employer, sense of truth, justice, liberty, fair play, fellow man etc.

To pay taxes but not live up to your responsibility to decide how those taxes are spent is not being neutral.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Pure fiction.

The principle of neutrality cannot apply to yourself when you are on a side!

People do not ONLY have loyalty to their religious convictions. I have loyalty to my family, neighborhood, city, county, State, federation, alma mater, home teams, employer, sense of truth, justice, liberty, fair play, fellow man etc.

To pay taxes but not live up to your responsibility to decide how those taxes are spent is not being neutral.

The principle of neutrality cannot apply to yourself when you are on a side!

People do not ONLY have loyalty to their religious convictions. I have loyalty to my family, neighborhood, city, county, State, federation, alma mater, home teams, employer, sense of truth, justice, liberty, fair play, fellow man etc.

To pay taxes but not live up to your responsibility to decide how those taxes are spent is not being neutral.

Satan exerts authority over all human governments. That fact was made plain when Satan showed Jesus “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth” and said: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.” (Luke 4:5, 6)

The Bible pictures world governments as “beasts” and says that they get their authority from the Dragon, Satan the Devil. God has permitted them to remain and has limited their scope and duration of rule, in harmony with his purpose.(Daniel chapters 7, 8; Revelation chapters 13, 17; Daniel 4:25, 35; John 19:11; Acts 17:26; 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)

When Satan offered Jesus world rulership, Jesus did not deny that the Devil had the power to offer him all the kingdoms of the world. In fact, on a later occasion, Jesus called Satan “the ruler of the world.” Some years later the apostle Paul described Satan as “the god of this system of things.” (John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4)

Paul wrote to fellow Christians: “We have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against governments, against the authorities, world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”(Ephesians 6:12) Behind the scenes, wicked spirit forces are the real rulers of this world. How should that fact influence our view of nations?

It's true we obey a law of the government as long as it doesn't contradict the laws of God. So we stay neutral to governments because they belong to Satan. Christians don't make themselves friends to this wicked world we live in. The nations influenced by Satan cause the world we live to be as wicked as it is. All the governments of this wicked world we live in will be destroyed by God.

 

[Wrangler]

Satan exerts authority over all human governments.

Non-sequitor. Satan is the god of this world but Jesus is his lord too. The Great Commission is not a neutrality principle as it advocates us to make disciples of human governments - nations - in explicit language. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Weirder all the time. The verse you cite does not say anything like what you claim. How you equate:
We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.

If the world is under the control of satan, then it certainly does.

It’s not about giving thanks to God per se, because that is something we can all do individually. It’s when it’s done in a collective way that you have to be concerned. Who is in control of that collective and who is part of it? “The whole world” which is what most translations state, leaves no part of the world that is not under the devil’s influence. Surely that is a warning in itself?

Considering the identity of the “evil one”, whom Paul states is “the god of this world” (capable of “blinding” people to the truth. 2 Cor 4:3-4) you appear to be unaware of his devices. The way he deceives is the point here. He transforms himself into “an angel of light” otherwise he could not deceive as successfully as he has. No one would do the devil’s bidding if he presented himself as he truly is.
What is deception after all?

Considering the pretenders of his day Paul warned....
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.”

Has this warning fallen on deaf ears.....we can clearly see that it has. It is the “works” that identify the deceived ones....not just what they believe or say...but what they do and allow, and even embrace, in the practice of their "Christianity".

Those agents of the devil, back in the first century, pretending to be “Christian” teachers, were manifesting even back then. This foretold apostasy was held back by the living apostles, but once that restraint was gone (when the last apostle John died) those false teachers gradually overtook the Christian Faith and replaced it by force with a counterfeit....keeping the masses in ignorance for centuries.

By the 4th century, a pagan Roman Emperor saw benefit in religiously uniting his divided empire. He mandated a new state religion....Roman Catholicism.....which ended up with so much power that no one could defy it, without severe consequences.

Power corrupts, as we all know.....so Revelation speaks about a harlot-like entity which Jesus identified as “Babylon the great”.....this spiritual “harlot” ended up having a “Kingdom over the kings of the earth”. (Revelation 17:3-6, 18)

They were “in bed” with God’s enemies, using her power to manipulate the masses through ignorance and fear. Her friendship with the world meant that she too was God's enemy. (James 4:4)
"Babylon the great" ended up being a global empire along with all the other false religions that the devil was permitted to “sow” in the world. All had the same core of false beliefs.....a multiplicity of gods, (esp. triads) belief in an immortal soul, and a place of fiery torment after death for the wicked or a place of heavenly bliss for the righteous.
Sound familiar?

Jesus also warned about specific “weeds” that the devil would plant as a convincing counterfeit “Christianity”, to mislead people away from God, ‘appropriating’ all manner of false religious beliefs and practices which we can see from history was a “church” that behaved in a most unchristian way, but implanted itself as a ruler of kings.

Any human political leader who declares themselves to be Christian is a fake. This world is not ruled by a single Christian. We are to be “NO PART” of that world.....for all the reasons already discussed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The real purpose seems to be to culturally isolate yourselves from those you are commanded to reach by any means that may work. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 easily applies to celebrating Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Independence Day - to save those who do.

No, not “culturally isolated” but “religiously” isolated, as we are told to be. We are to “touch” nothing spiritually “unclean” in God’s eyes....in this, our personal opinion doesn’t count. We are not stupid when it comes identifying what is “religious” and what is not. Just because a religious custom is no longer regarded as “religious” to some people, doesn’t divorce it from its grubby roots. God was there when the original was observed. The customs are the same, only the name has changed. God doesn’t change to accommodate our wishes...so why do you expect him to?
What did he do when his people made excursions into false worship? He punished them.

Do you never wonder why “Christians” needed to adopt pagan religious observances in the first place?
Are they not capable of inventing their own? Why are most of them based on pagan observances.....do you never ask?

As well as isolate your members.

We are told to “separate” ourselves from what is spiritually “unclean”. We have no difficulty identifying those things....a little research is all it takes. But people are emotionally attached to these things and will justify preserving them for their own reasons. God has no such sentimental attachment....he knows where they came from....and so do we.

What an absurd idea to say that George Washington, a Christian leader of a Christian nation proclaiming unity in giving thanks to our Creator for many blessings = an unholy alliance between Church and State. Obviously, you have to stretch things to support your anti-cultural agenda.

It is not what you addressed from my post that is telling, Wrangler.... but what you failed to acknowledge. It shows that you have blinders on and will only see what you want to see.

You choose to celebrate something based on what the Pilgrims did, but when it is mentioned that these would not celebrate either Christmas or Easter, because of their pagan roots, you ignore that because it suits you. Cherry picking?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sad. I’ll pray for you.

Please Wrangler.....you can ignore what is presented to you, but you can’t prevent the judgment that is coming on all of us.......we all have the same judge, and he will judge all of us by the same standards....God’s standards.

What is the detriment for avoiding religiously inspired practices that have their roots in paganism? To err on the side of caution is surely the best way to approach this issue. When we know how the devil works, and how successful he has been in bringing “the whole world” under his control, why would we imagine that we are not under test in even the seemingly small things? (Luke 16:10) If we can't (or won't) be faithful in the small things, then we may well become desensitized when it comes to the big issues. Justification then becomes our “normal” response.

Justification can be deadly....look what it led the Jews to do to their promised Messiah.
So is it wrong to issue a warning....? Isn’t it the loving thing to do? Acting on it may not be what pride dictates, but no one will ever be able to claim ignorance.....will they?

The principle of neutrality cannot apply to yourself when you are on a side!

It does when we understand that the world has no “sides”....but God does. We have two choices Wrangler....to be on God’s side or the devil’s...we choose. We are all either “sheep or goats”....”wheat or weeds”....on “the road to life”....or on the one that “leads to destruction”. Who decides which road we travel? We do.

People do not ONLY have loyalty to their religious convictions. I have loyalty to my family, neighborhood, city, county, State, federation, alma mater, home teams, employer, sense of truth, justice, liberty, fair play, fellow man etc.

Loyalty to God comes before all others, which is confirmed by Jesus when he told us of the two greatest commandments in the law. Love for God must transcend all other loyalties.
As Jesus also said....
“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”

I have no loyalty to anyone before my loyalty to Jehovah in all things. I make no apology for that.

To pay taxes but not live up to your responsibility to decide how those taxes are spent is not being neutral.

To pay taxes is what Jesus told us to do, “paying back Caesar’s things to Caesar” whilst rendering “God’s things to God”. Our taxes entitle us to access public services.....roads, schools, utilities, hospitals etc. All tax payers have access to these things. (Matthew 10:15-21) What the authorities do with their tax money has nothing to do with us, just as it had nothing to do with first century Christians. We have no say in that.

We are to live “in the world” whilst becoming “no part” of its ideals, goals, agendas, or politics. Trying to ‘marry’ the world to God is an indication that we see no lines of demarcation between the two....yet the Bible provides them....quite clearly to those who have no need to justify what God condemns.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Non-sequitor. Satan is the god of this world but Jesus is his lord too.

Jesus is not his Lord nor is Jehovah his Father....just as Jesus said of the Pharisees...they were from a different "father"...one who wanted to make himself God's equal.

Satan rules this world by God's permission for a time and a reason.....unless you know why he was given this rulership, you will never understand why we need to be separate from satan's world....and how we demonstrate our separateness.

The Great Commission is not a neutrality principle as it advocates us to make disciples of human governments - nations - in explicit language. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.

Who said it was? The great commission is a command from the Master to deliver his message in all the world....in all the ways he told us to, and utilizing some ways that were never thought of in the first century.

Nowhere are we told to make disciples of human governments because they are not from God and never will be. All governments are the devil's tools because he told Jesus that world rulership was "delivered" to him and that he could give authority to rule to whomever he chose. (Luke 4:5-8) Jesus never challenged him on that point.
How could satan offer Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if they were not his to give?
Is that all kingdoms except yours? I have news for you....

 

[RLT63]

Jesus is not his Lord nor is Jehovah his Father....just as Jesus said of the Pharisees...they were from a different "father"...one who wanted to make himself God's equal.

Satan rules this world by God's permission for a time and a reason.....unless you know why he was givine this rulership, you will never understand why we need to be separate from satan's world....and how we demonstrate our separateness.

Who said it was? The great commission is a command from the Master to deliver his message in all the world....in all the ways he told us to, and utilizing some ways that were never thought of in the first century.

Nowhere are we told to make disciples of human governments because they are not from God and never will be. All governments are the devil's tools because he told Jesus that world rulership was "delivered" to him and that he could give authority to rule to whomever he chose. (Luke 4:5-8) Jesus never challenged him on that point.
How could satan offer Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if they were not his to give?
Is that all kingdoms except yours? I have news for you....

I’ll give you a tip. Don’t make your posts so long if you want people to read them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’ll give you a tip. Don’t make your posts so long if you want people to read them.

I am not talking to goldfish.....those too lazy to read, will miss important Bible truths.....and that is not my problem.
I answer each point as precisely as I can because details are important to me.....as are the scriptures.

Jesus said that “the sheep” know the voice of their shepherd (John 10:27)......so the genuine truth seekers will want to know the real truth, not what masquerades as truth in a multitude of bickering denominations......or the words of the “lone rangers”; those individuals who see themselves as the only one who can interpret scripture correctly, yet they have no brotherhood who believes what they teach (1 Cor 1:10).......so in that setting, this will mean that the genuine truth seeker will want to dig for the hidden treasures that are found in the Bible. They are hungry for the food that Jesus told his disciples to “feed” others. (Matthew 24:45)

The “weeds” are in the world and there are a multitude of them.....but the “wheat” are also in the world....”few” in number, but they are out there preaching what Christ told them to spread into all the world. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19-20) Our judge is separating them as we speak. The time for the “harvest” is upon us.

The “sheep” will see the futility of Christendom’s complete lack of cohesion, and are sick of wading through all the material that is put out by “a house divided” but who all claim to follow the teachings of the Christ. They fail to teach what the Bible does.
Like the Jews of old, they substitute the “traditions of men”, without any regard for how God feels about those things.
The “sheep” are the people who will want to know the truth, even if it means relinquishing long held beliefs because they see where they came from....and how God feels about them.

The Bible is not a brief book...therefore it’s truths cannot be expressed in 50 words or less....

 

[Wrangler]

No, not “culturally isolated” but “religiously” isolated, as we are told to be.

Semantics, parsing synonyms + ‘we’ are not told by Scripture to be culturally OR religiously isolated as the ‘all things to all people verse’ indicates.

I noticed you just ignore verses that doesn’t fit what the Watchtower tells you.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is not his Lord

Certainly he is. Jesus was given all authority.

Revelation 1:18

I have the keys of Death and Hades.​

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Non-sequitor. Satan is the god of this world but Jesus is his lord too. The Great Commission is not a neutrality principle as it advocates us to make disciples of human governments - nations - in explicit language. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.

God doesn't want anyone to be destroyed but he also knows there will be those people, who will be the majority of the people in each nation, who will not respond to the kingdom preaching work. The kingdom preaching work is not about saving human governments. All human governments belong to Satan, they will be destroyed. Jesus has commanded true Christians to preach to the nations not to save those human governments but to save as many within each of those nations thst will listen and exercise faith. There will be a minority of people within each nation who will exercise faith in the True God and his only begotten Son Jesus but the majority of the people in the nations will not subject themselves to the person that the True God YHWH has installed as their king, which is his only begotten Son Jesus. The only hope mankind has is the heavenly Messianic Kingdom that the True God YHWH has brought into existence and made his son Jesus the king of. God is also selecting others from among the True Christians to be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom. This heavenly Messianic kingdom is a actual government, but not no human government, because mankind had nothing to do with bringing this heavenly government into existence or choosing who will be the kings, priests, and judges of this heavenly government. This heavenly government is how the True God YHWH will undo everything the serpent caused in the garden of Eden, when he influenced Adam and Eve to disobey the True God YHWH. This heavenly Messianic kingdom is the government true Christians are loyal to, not human governments.

 

[Wrangler]

It’s not about giving thanks to God per se, because that is something we can all do individually. It’s when it’s done in a collective way that you have to be concerned.

Ridiculous!

 

[Wrangler]

All human governments belong to Satan

Doesn’t change the Great Commission. We all belong to Satan if not for Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I noticed you just ignore verses that doesn’t fit what the Watchtower tells you.

LOL...and there it is.....no defense for any of the evidence put to you....just attack the source......what am I ignoring?....misinterpreted scripture to support appropriating the false religious "traditions of men"?

Look....I get it. If it makes you feel better to 'take no notice' of what is shown to you from the scriptures, when its as plain as the nose on your face....that's OK.....I've done my job. Just like Noah did his job. (Matthew 24:37-39) No one took notice of him either.....

I will leave the conversation now because its all been said, and your responses indicate to me that you have nothing to say in any meaningful reply.
Let's just wait and see....shall we?

 

[RLT63]

I am not talking to goldfish.....those too lazy to read, will miss important Bible truths.....and that is not my problem.
I answer each point as precisely as I can because details are important to me.....as are the scriptures.

Jesus said that “the sheep” know the voice of their shepherd (John 10:27)......so the genuine truth seekers will want to know the real truth, not what masquerades as truth in a multitude of bickering denominations......or the words of the “lone rangers”; those individuals who see themselves as the only one who can interpret scripture correctly, yet they have no brotherhood who believes what they teach (1 Cor 1:10).......so in that setting, this will mean that the genuine truth seeker will want to dig for the hidden treasures that are found in the Bible. They are hungry for the food that Jesus told his disciples to “feed” others. (Matthew 24:45)

The “weeds” are in the world and there are a multitude of them.....but the “wheat” are also in the world....”few” in number, but they are out there preaching what Christ told them to spread into all the world. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19-20) Our judge is separating them as we speak. The time for the “harvest” is upon us.

The “sheep” will see the futility of Christendom’s complete lack of cohesion, and are sick of wading through all the material that is put out by “a house divided” but who all claim to follow the teachings of the Christ. They fail to teach what the Bible does.
Like the Jews of old, they substitute the “traditions of men”, without any regard for how God feels about those things.
The “sheep” are the people who will want to know the truth, even if it means relinquishing long held beliefs because they see where they came from....and how God feels about them.

The Bible is not a brief book...therefore it’s truths cannot be expressed in 50 words or less....

If you can’t be brilliant be brief. I aim for both. A scripture about vain repetitions comes to mind Matthew 6:7.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you can’t be brilliant be brief.

Jesus was brilliant but he wasn't usually brief. What he had to say was of life or death importance, so brevity wasn't going to cut it. Some of his teaching sessions lasted for days.

I aim for both.

I find you skilled in only one of those areas.....not the one you think.

A scripture about vain repetitions comes to mind

A scripture that you have misapplied since it was Jesus instructing us about prayer....
Have you studied the Bible RLT...? or only theology? Did you know that there is a big difference? It isn't apparent that you do.

 

[Wrangler]

LOL...and there it is.....no defense for any of the evidence put to you....just attack the source......what am I ignoring?

I already explained. You are ignoring the Great Commission along with ‘be all things to all people’ supports celebrating cultural holy days with people in the culture you find yourself in.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I already explained. You are ignoring the Great Commission along with ‘be all things to all people’ supports celebrating cultural holy days with people in the culture you find yourself in.

What is the great commission Wrangler? Give us the details of what you believe Christ told his disciples to do and say in carrying it out?

Being "all things to all people" did not involve joining them in false religious celebrations. Nowhere are we told to appropriate the pagan's customs or rituals in order to sway them over to our way of thinking. You cannot contaminate God's worship with the worship of foreign gods. @2 Cor 6:14-18, Paul could not have been plainer.....unless of course you think he contradicted himself....?

What was the prime example that Paul used to show what he meant when trying to be "all things to all people so that he might save some"? Wasn't it his address to the philosophers at Acts 17:22-28?

“Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. 23 For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore, what you are unknowingly worshipping, this I am declaring to you. 24 The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’"

This is masterful.....Paul used an "unknown god" that was already acknowledged by the people he was addressing, and he simply identified this "unknown god" as Yahweh. He then described him to the audience so that the existence of this unknown god was acknowledged and explained.....and this God was different to all their other gods.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Doesn’t change the Great Commission. We all belong to Satan if not for Christ.

I didn't say it changed the great commission. We still go to the nations to preach the good news about the kingdom. But just as the majority of the Jews didn't believe Jesus or his apostles the majority of the people in the nations want believe today.