A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[ElieG12]

... Of course NOT.

To be a Jehovah's Witness requirements must be met. Jehovah does not approve of anyone just because.

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you are missing the point. Either Jesus is human or merely is NOT human but merely in human form. Which is it?

If angels are spirits and can materialise human form, (as the Bible says they did) then they remain “spirits in human form”....but Jesus did not materialise in order to be born as a 100% mortal human child....his life was transferred from heaven by means of God’s spirit in order to produce the savior that Jehovah sent to cancel Adam’s debt. He had to come through David’s lineage, which he did by being born as the human child of Mary....but his life was not new, since he was “the firstborn of ALL creation”.....he existed way before any other creation. He told the Jews that he existed before Abraham, who was the one given the promise that Messiah would come from his descendants.

After his physical death, since Jesus was a soul, fully human, three days after his execution, his God and Father resurrected him as he promised. But he raised Jesus in a spirit body; (“the firstborn from the dead” meaning that he was the first human to be raised in spirit form, opening the way for his elect to follow later) so he was able to materialise and dematerialise at will in his resurrected body. This is what Jesus did during the 40 days he remained on earth to strengthen his disciples to carry on in his absence.

Jesus was raised as a spirit because he was to return “to where he was before” as he said.
Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven......so the behavior of Jesus after his resurrection was vastly different to the way he behaved when in his original human body. He did not keep constant company with his disciples as he had done for the previous three and a half years.....he only “appeared to them”....and sometimes he even “disappeared”. Often he was not recognised....sometimes he had wounds to convince the doubters. Would God have resurrected his son in a damaged body?

Please tell me how a human can go to heaven.....? Please tell me what human ever did before Jesus?

There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....the “first resurrection” is for Christ’s elect who were to be raised in a spirit body like he was, (Rev 20:6) in this form, they could go and be where Jesus had “prepared a place for them”, to be where he was, in heaven.....and then there is a general resurrection of the dead who are raised back to mortal life on earth, like all of those were who were raised by Jesus and his apostles.
This is how Jehovah reinstates his first purpose.....(Rev 21:2-4) He did not design humans to live in heaven.

There is so much that you ignore to hang on to your chosen beliefs.....but that is entirely your choice Wrangler....you can believe whatever you wish....as we all can....but “believing” doesn’t make something that is not true, into something that is. We are all reading the same scripture, but God is revealing his truth only to those who are “doing his will”......(John 6:44, 65; Matthew 7:21-23)

What does that mean in reality in today’s world?

 

[RLT63]

If angels are spirits and can materialise human form, (as the Bible says they did) then they remain “spirits in human form”....but Jesus did not materialise in order to be born as a 100% mortal human child....his life was transferred from heaven by means of God’s spirit in order to produce the savior that Jehovah sent to cancel Adam’s debt. He had to come through David’s lineage, which he did by being born as the human child of Mary....but his life was not new, since he was “the firstborn of ALL creation”.....he existed way before any other creation. He told the Jews that he existed before Abraham, who was the one given the promise that Messiah would come from his descendants.

After his physical death, since Jesus was a soul, fully human, three days after his execution, his God and Father resurrected him as he promised. But he raised Jesus in a spirit body; (“the firstborn from the dead” meaning that he was the first human to be raised in spirit form, opening the way for his elect to follow later) so he was able to materialise and dematerialise at will in his resurrected body. This is what Jesus did during the 40 days he remained on earth to strengthen his disciples to carry on in his absence.

Jesus was raised as a spirit because he was to return “to where he was before” as he said.
Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven......so the behavior of Jesus after his resurrection was vastly different to the way he behaved when in his original human body. He did not keep constant company with his disciples as he had done for the previous three and a half years.....he only “appeared to them”....and sometimes he even “disappeared”. Often he was not recognised....sometimes he had wounds to convince the doubters. Would God have resurrected his son in a damaged body?

Please tell me how a human can go to heaven.....? Please tell me what human ever did before Jesus?

There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....the “first resurrection” is for Christ’s elect who were to be raised in a spirit body like he was, (Rev 20:6) in this form, they could go and be where Jesus had “prepared a place for them”, to be where he was, in heaven.....and then there is a general resurrection of the dead who are raised back to mortal life on earth, like all of those were who were raised by Jesus and his apostles.
This is how Jehovah reinstates his first purpose.....(Rev 21:2-4) He did not design humans to live in heaven.

There is so much that you ignore to hang on to your chosen beliefs.....but that is entirely your choice Wrangler....you can believe whatever you wish....as we all can....but “believing” doesn’t make something that is not true, into something that is. We are all reading the same scripture, but God is revealing his truth only to those who are “doing his will”......(John 6:44, 65; Matthew 7:21-23)

What does that mean in reality in today’s world?

Where did Enoch and Elijah go?

 

[Wrangler]

Please tell me how a human can go to heaven.....? Please tell me what human ever did before Jesus?

Enoch and Elijah went. Where do you get off supposing how God achieved his goal is at our pay grade? We don’t know how God resurrected Jesus but we do know that he did.

 

[RLT63]

If angels are spirits and can materialise human form, (as the Bible says they did) then they remain “spirits in human form”....but Jesus did not materialise in order to be born as a 100% mortal human child....his life was transferred from heaven by means of God’s spirit in order to produce the savior that Jehovah sent to cancel Adam’s debt. He had to come through David’s lineage, which he did by being born as the human child of Mary....but his life was not new, since he was “the firstborn of ALL creation”.....he existed way before any other creation. He told the Jews that he existed before Abraham, who was the one given the promise that Messiah would come from his descendants.

After his physical death, since Jesus was a soul, fully human, three days after his execution, his God and Father resurrected him as he promised. But he raised Jesus in a spirit body; (“the firstborn from the dead” meaning that he was the first human to be raised in spirit form, opening the way for his elect to follow later) so he was able to materialise and dematerialise at will in his resurrected body. This is what Jesus did during the 40 days he remained on earth to strengthen his disciples to carry on in his absence.

Jesus was raised as a spirit because he was to return “to where he was before” as he said.
Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven......so the behavior of Jesus after his resurrection was vastly different to the way he behaved when in his original human body. He did not keep constant company with his disciples as he had done for the previous three and a half years.....he only “appeared to them”....and sometimes he even “disappeared”. Often he was not recognised....sometimes he had wounds to convince the doubters. Would God have resurrected his son in a damaged body?

Please tell me how a human can go to heaven.....? Please tell me what human ever did before Jesus?

There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....the “first resurrection” is for Christ’s elect who were to be raised in a spirit body like he was, (Rev 20:6) in this form, they could go and be where Jesus had “prepared a place for them”, to be where he was, in heaven.....and then there is a general resurrection of the dead who are raised back to mortal life on earth, like all of those were who were raised by Jesus and his apostles.
This is how Jehovah reinstates his first purpose.....(Rev 21:2-4) He did not design humans to live in heaven.

There is so much that you ignore to hang on to your chosen beliefs.....but that is entirely your choice Wrangler....you can believe whatever you wish....as we all can....but “believing” doesn’t make something that is not true, into something that is. We are all reading the same scripture, but God is revealing his truth only to those who are “doing his will”......(John 6:44, 65; Matthew 7:21-23)

What does that mean in reality in today’s world?

Aunty Jane said “There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....the “first resurrection” is for Christ’s elect who were to be raised in a spirit body like he was, (Rev 20:6) in this form, they could go and be where Jesus had “prepared a place for them”, to be where he was, in heaven.....and then there is a general resurrection of the dead who are raised back to mortal life on earth, like all of those were who were raised by Jesus and his apostles.” Are these raised back to “mortal life” going to die when they get old? I think you believe they will live on earth forever so they are not mortal are they? Scriptures to show the Great Crowd and Other Sheep are in heaven

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ver good article.

Of all the things to dispute - how the man Jesus died and denying he came back as a man seem so silly to me. That is, until one realizes the weight JW put on such things.

Yes, very good for those who want to support the use of an actual idol in their worship.....you keep calling knowledge my idol, but knowledge is a desirable thing from God’s perspective.....Solomon, said to have gained his wisdom from God, said...
“For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner.” (Eccl 7:12) Why do you fear it? Knowledge seems to make you uncomfortable for some reason.

Wisdom leads to knowledge which is possessed by those who bother to do their own research......I have a feeling that you would rather be spoon fed than to do your own study.
Like the ancient Beroeans who were commended for actually checking the scriptures for themselves, we need to confirm that what we have been led to believe is actually true. (Acts 17:10-11)

Christ has set us free but your JW IDOLATRY has enslaved you. I feel so bad for JW now!

Oh please, save your pity.....we will all soon see who to feel sorry for, and who is enslaved to what....idolatry in reality is being practiced widely by many people who have no idea that they are participating in it.
Justification is a powerful weapon in the hands of the devil. It all seems so harmless.....read back to the days of ancient Israel and see how seemingly harmless things were important to Jehovah.
The man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath was put to death....the man who put his hand out to save the arc, died instantly. (Luke 16:10) Those who questioned Moses’ authority......the ground opened up and swallowed them.

Given that you hold every point of doctrine a salvation issue, you must have no hope in JW reversing themselves on celebrating Christmas, Jesus dying on a cross. It means that by your own doctrines, you are holding fellow JW (of a different time) as incapable of receiving salvation since the believed what you now believe is untrue.

There is no need to reverse yourself back to something that was never true or valid in the first place....
JW’s have made many adjustments in their beliefs over the time we have have been gathered together as an organized global body of Christians, in this “time of the end”. We are not stuck in false beliefs, because, if our governing body sees that our view needs adjustment, they will make the adjustment, and alert our brotherhood as to the clarification, and the reasons for it. Jehovah does not reveal everything all at once....he never has. He reveals things progressively....so this is how we travel. (Prov 4:18)' The light on the path gets brighter'....as the new day approaches.
Being given “food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45) means we get what we need, when we need it. This "food" only comes from one source...and its not a buffet.

Circular & False Alternative. What is something before it exists?

Where were you before you existed? Where was I? The answer is simple (unless you are a Mormon). We did not exist.
Where was Jesus before he existed as a man on earth? He said he was in existence before Abraham was born. You and I did not exist before we were born....but Jesus said that he did. I can take his word for that.

Enoch and Elijah went. Where do you get off supposing how God achieved his goal is at our pay grade? We don’t know how God resurrected Jesus but we do know that he did.

Again you show no knowledge of what the Bible says about these two men....neither of whom went to heaven because that would make the scriptures contradict.....
John 3:13....Jesus said....
“....no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
There you have an explicit statement.....Jesus descended from heaven and returned there....but no human went to heaven before he did. Can it be plainer than that?

Faithful Enoch lived in extremely dangerous times, so God gently ended his life, probably to protect him from a violent death at the hands of his opposers. Death is merely a “sleep”....a state of complete unconsciousness according to Solomon. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) So Enoch did not go to heaven.

“Eʹnoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.”

It doesn’t say that God took him to heaven.

Elijah was taken up in a windstorm into "the heavens", which is a word that can mean the atmospheric heavens, where birds fly.......but he did not die, he was merely relocated to another assignment; his role taken over by Elisha. But Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master, an important custom among the Jews, proving that he had not died.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chron 21:12-15)

Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler....unless you have a closed mind.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane said “There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....the “first resurrection” is for Christ’s elect who were to be raised in a spirit body like he was, (Rev 20:6) in this form, they could go and be where Jesus had “prepared a place for them”, to be where he was, in heaven.....and then there is a general resurrection of the dead who are raised back to mortal life on earth, like all of those were who were raised by Jesus and his apostles.” Are these raised back to “mortal life” going to die when they get old? I think you believe they will live on earth forever so they are not mortal are they? Scriptures to show the Great Crowd and Other Sheep are in heaven

What do you think "mortal" means RLT? It means that a mortal can die....not that they must but that they can.
An immortal OTOH, cannot die at all.....they have the power of an indestructible life.

Originally only God was immortal. Not even his firstborn son had that capacity, otherwise he could never have been sent to earth to die for mankind. If he was an immortal he could not have died so what would have been the point in sending him? On completing his mission faithfully he was granted immortality and because his elect also have to prove "faithful to their death", these too will be granted life in an immortal spirit body.

What God created in Eden had no defects.....humankind were not flawed by sin, until Adam and his wife disobeyed God's command.....which is where sin, old age, sickness and death originated.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, no death would have occurred. They had access to the "tree of life" and so had the prospect of living forever without any pain suffering or death (Gen 3:22-24).....that is what Adam lost for his children......and it is what Jesus came to buy back for us. Earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven.....God already has a large family of spirit sons there who were all in existence before the Universe was created.

Rev 21:2-4 tells us the outcome of what the coming of God's kingdom means for us humans.....
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

It is the wicked world and evil people who will "pass away"....not God's faithful ones. This is what redeemed mankind can look forward to.....getting back to what Adam and Eve first experienced life to be......paradise on earth...with no sickness, aging or death to rob us of what God has purposed for us, and will yet achieve. (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[Wrangler]

Yes, very good for those who want to support the use of an actual idol in their worship.....you keep calling knowledge my idol, but knowledge is a desirable thing from God’s perspective

Again, you have COMPLETELY failed to grasp the significance of Original Sin.

No one worships the cross lady. It is not an idol. The cross is a symbol of God reaching out to us, to bridge the gap, which makes all the difference. It is God's effort, not our pursuit of doubling down on the Original Sin by which we are saved.

 

[Wrangler]

The man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath was put to death....the man who put his hand out to save the arc, died instantly. (Luke 16:10)

Luke 16:10 tells with being trusted, not about having right knowledge to obtain salvation. Nice try.

Given that you hold every point of doctrine a salvation issue, you must have no hope in JW reversing themselves on celebrating Christmas, Jesus dying on a cross. It means that by your own doctrines, you are holding fellow JW (of a different time) as incapable of receiving salvation since the believed what you now believe is untrue.

Holy works based doctrine, batman!

There is no need to reverse yourself back to something that was never true or valid in the first place....
JW’s have made many adjustments in their beliefs over the time

I'm not reversing myself. You do ignore the contradictions of your doctrines. JW doctrinal adjustments logically mean JW's of the past cannot obtain salvation. Your response is to pretend that I am reversing myself? Wow!

He said he was in existence before Abraham was born. You and I did not exist before we were born....but Jesus said that he did. I can take his word for that.

Again, ignoring contradictions of your doctrines. If Jesus is a man - and men do not exist before they are born - there is no basis to suppose Jesus existed before he was born.

Alternatively, humans, including Jesus exist before we are born, thereby averting the contradiction.

“Eʹnoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.”

It doesn’t say that God took him to heaven.

Elijah was taken up in a windstorm into "the heavens", which is a word that can mean the atmospheric heavens

It doesn't say Enoch was taken into heaven? Where do you suppose God took him? It's awesome that you pretend heaven is not a subset of the plural heavens, which Elijah was taken.

You cannot connect both were taken means they were both taken to heaven only because it violates your doctrine.

Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler....unless you have a closed mind.

Knowledge is the fruit from the forbidden tree. Knowledge is only an enemy to a believer in God to prioritize knowlege over a relationship with God. The 1C is NOT 'thou shall gain knowledge.' Still side stepping the lesson of Original Sin.

Powerful is the IDOLATRY of JW.

 

[RLT63]

What do you think "mortal" means RLT? It means that a mortal can die....not that they must but that they can.
An immortal OTOH, cannot die at all.....they have the power of an indestructible life.

Originally only God was immortal. Not even his firstborn son had that capacity, otherwise he could never have been sent to earth to die for mankind. If he was an immortal he could not have died so what would have been the point in sending him? On completing his mission faithfully he was granted immortality and because his elect also have to prove "faithful to their death", these too will be granted life in an immortal spirit body.

What God created in Eden had no defects.....humankind were not flawed by sin, until Adam and his wife disobeyed God's command.....which is where sin, old age, sickness and death originated.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, no death would have occurred. They had access to the "tree of life" and so had the prospect of living forever without any pain suffering or death (Gen 3:22-24).....that is what Adam lost for his children......and it is what Jesus came to buy back for us. Earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven.....God already has a large family of spirit sons there who were all in existence before the Universe was created.

Rev 21:2-4 tells us the outcome of what the coming of God's kingdom means for us humans.....
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

It is the wicked world and evil people who will "pass away"....not God's faithful ones. This is what redeemed mankind can look forward to.....getting back to what Adam and Eve first experienced life to be......paradise on earth...with no sickness, aging or death to rob us of what God has purposed for us, and will yet achieve. (Isaiah 55:11)

1. If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to "receive my spirit"? How could Jesus receive Stephen's spirit if a man's spirit ceases to exist when the body dies?
2. If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?
3. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two?
4. If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death (1Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead" (1Pet 4:6)

 

[RLT63]

Yes, very good for those who want to support the use of an actual idol in their worship.....you keep calling knowledge my idol, but knowledge is a desirable thing from God’s perspective.....Solomon, said to have gained his wisdom from God, said...
“For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner.” (Eccl 7:12) Why do you fear it? Knowledge seems to make you uncomfortable for some reason.

Wisdom leads to knowledge which is possessed by those who bother to do their own research......I have a feeling that you would rather be spoon fed than to do your own study.
Like the ancient Beroeans who were commended for actually checking the scriptures for themselves, we need to confirm that what we have been led to believe is actually true. (Acts 17:10-11)

Oh please, save your pity.....we will all soon see who to feel sorry for, and who is enslaved to what....idolatry in reality is being practiced widely by many people who have no idea that they are participating in it.
Justification is a powerful weapon in the hands of the devil. It all seems so harmless.....read back to the days of ancient Israel and see how seemingly harmless things were important to Jehovah.
The man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath was put to death....the man who put his hand out to save the arc, died instantly. (Luke 16:10) Those who questioned Moses’ authority......the ground opened up and swallowed them.

There is no need to reverse yourself back to something that was never true or valid in the first place....
JW’s have made many adjustments in their beliefs over the time we have have been gathered together as an organized global body of Christians, in this “time of the end”. We are not stuck in false beliefs, because, if our governing body sees that our view needs adjustment, they will make the adjustment, and alert our brotherhood as to the clarification, and the reasons for it. Jehovah does not reveal everything all at once....he never has. He reveals things progressively....so this is how we travel. (Prov 4:18)' The light on the path gets brighter'....as the new day approaches.
Being given “food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45) means we get what we need, when we need it. This "food" only comes from one source...and its not a buffet.

Where were you before you existed? Where was I? The answer is simple (unless you are a Mormon). We did not exist.
Where was Jesus before he existed as a man on earth? He said he was in existence before Abraham was born. You and I did not exist before we were born....but Jesus said that he did. I can take his word for that.


Again you show no knowledge of what the Bible says about these two men....neither of whom went to heaven because that would make the scriptures contradict.....
John 3:13....Jesus said....
“....no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
There you have an explicit statement.....Jesus descended from heaven and returned there....but no human went to heaven before he did. Can it be plainer than that?

Faithful Enoch lived in extremely dangerous times, so God gently ended his life, probably to protect him from a violent death at the hands of his opposers. Death is merely a “sleep”....a state of complete unconsciousness according to Solomon. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) So Enoch did not go to heaven.

“Eʹnoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.”

It doesn’t say that God took him to heaven.

Elijah was taken up in a windstorm into "the heavens", which is a word that can mean the atmospheric heavens, where birds fly.......but he did not die, he was merely relocated to another assignment; his role taken over by Elisha. But Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master, an important custom among the Jews, proving that he had not died.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chron 21:12-15)

Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler....unless you have a closed mind.

If Jesus was executed on a torture stake, with both hands together over his head, instead of on a cross with both hands outstretched, why does Mt 27:37 say that the sign "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" was "posted above his HEAD" instead of being posted above his hands? How could it have been posted above his head if his arms were stretched out over his head?

 

[RLT63]

What do you think "mortal" means RLT? It means that a mortal can die....not that they must but that they can.
An immortal OTOH, cannot die at all.....they have the power of an indestructible life.

Originally only God was immortal. Not even his firstborn son had that capacity, otherwise he could never have been sent to earth to die for mankind. If he was an immortal he could not have died so what would have been the point in sending him? On completing his mission faithfully he was granted immortality and because his elect also have to prove "faithful to their death", these too will be granted life in an immortal spirit body.

What God created in Eden had no defects.....humankind were not flawed by sin, until Adam and his wife disobeyed God's command.....which is where sin, old age, sickness and death originated.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, no death would have occurred. They had access to the "tree of life" and so had the prospect of living forever without any pain suffering or death (Gen 3:22-24).....that is what Adam lost for his children......and it is what Jesus came to buy back for us. Earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven.....God already has a large family of spirit sons there who were all in existence before the Universe was created.

Rev 21:2-4 tells us the outcome of what the coming of God's kingdom means for us humans.....
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

It is the wicked world and evil people who will "pass away"....not God's faithful ones. This is what redeemed mankind can look forward to.....getting back to what Adam and Eve first experienced life to be......paradise on earth...with no sickness, aging or death to rob us of what God has purposed for us, and will yet achieve. (Isaiah 55:11)

How can I know I have eternal life?
1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again, you have COMPLETELY failed to grasp the significance of Original Sin.

Or perhaps you do...and how sending his “only begotten son” was the solution.
What is “original sin” to you, Wrangler? How does Jesus' sacrifice fix that?

No one worships the cross lady. It is not an idol.

If even making an image to use in worship was a breach of the 2nd Commandment, then the making of any religious image, is idolatry. In order to bow before an image, one first has to “make” one.

The first Christians were so conscious of this command of God and Israel’s history of adopting false religious ideas and practices, that there were no images of any description found in the catacombs. The first indication of a “Christian” symbol in later times was the fish. Crosses did not appear till around the 4th century....so, what is that telling you? I know what it tells me.

The cross is a symbol of God reaching out to us, to bridge the gap, which makes all the difference. It is God's effort, not our pursuit of doubling down on the Original Sin by which we are saved.

And if Jesus had been hanged, or shot with arrows, or run through with a spear....imagine what people would be displaying on their churches or wearing as jewellery....? Do you make an image of the thing used to put someone you love to death? The idea is abhorrent. It is Jesus‘ death that saved us, not the instrument used to end his life.
I have shown you before that the Romans used different forms of the “stauros” to put their victims to death. The form of the one used to execute Jesus is not mentioned.
You ignore what you cannot defend.
If you want to use a cross as the symbol for Christ's sacrifice when no one really knows what shape it was...then that is up to you. All I know is that crosses were used by pagans as a religious symbol centuriers before Christ was born.

Luke 16:10 tells with being trusted, not about having right knowledge to obtain salvation. Nice try.

Really....? Is that what you think this means?....
“The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much.”
It means that the “least” things are still important to God, because if, even in those “least” things, you are mindful of obeying him, then you will not hesitate to obey him in the more important things.

I'm not reversing myself.

I never said you were....I said we would not need to reverse ourselves back to what we have already proven to ourselves is unacceptable to the God we worship. The god you worship might not be too fussy about what you do. The God of Israel was an exacting (jealous) God who did not tolerate any deviation from his stated laws....and Jesus did not say that the new covenant was any less strict in its application than the old one. It’s the same God with the same expectation of his worshippers.

It’s not an excuse to turn Jehovah into some all forgiving, ‘mamby pamby’ sop.
Paul’s words were a warning....
“Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

We disobey him at our own peril....sin is sin....God hates it...so should we.

You do ignore the contradictions of your doctrines. JW doctrinal adjustments logically mean JW's of the past cannot obtain salvation. Your response is to pretend that I am reversing myself?

You need to read more carefully because I never said you were reversing yourself...you said that of us....remember?
Respond to what is said....not what you think is said.....

There are no contradictions in our beliefs or I would have uncovered them....I came out of Christendom with one objective...to find the whole truth and it had to agree with all of scripture....not cherry picked bits of it. That is what a thorough study of the Bible does for a person...it crosses all the “t’s” and dots all the “i’s”. There is no ambiguity, and all the pieces fit into the one big picture.
Yet here you are arguing with me about Enoch and Elijah going to heaven, when scripture clearly states that 'no one went to heaven before Jesus'....your belief is a contradiction of Jesus' own words....not mine.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again, ignoring contradictions of your doctrines. If Jesus is a man - and men do not exist before they are born -there is no basis to suppose Jesus existed before he was born.

Ignoring scripture again.....Jesus clearly stated that he existed before his human birth....that he 'came down from heaven'....you need to argue with his own words, which have been shown to you several times, but because it contradicts what you want to believe, you contradict Jesus again....you just ignore what you cannot address......nice work.

Alternatively, humans, including Jesus exist before we are born, thereby averting the contradiction.

Why alternatively? Was Jesus a son of Adam? Or was he a "son of God" who was given a human birth without the need of normal human conception? His birth was nothing like ours....it is your beliefs that contradict the scriptures. He existed before his human birth....we did not.
Is that somehow a difficult concept?

It doesn't say Enoch was taken into heaven? Where do you suppose God took him? It's awesome that you pretend heaven is not a subset of the plural heavens, which Elijah was taken.

Since the Bible does not teach that there is immediate life after death, Enoch’s life was taken by God and will be restored to him in the coming resurrection. (John 5:28-29) The ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, or in any conscious part of man that can exist without a physical body. The resurrection that Jesus taught and demonstrated was a restoration of this life back to the earth, in keeping with Jewish belief. Read the account about Lazarus and see where Jesus said he was and where his sister imagined seeing him again....(John ch 11)

The concept of going to heaven was not introduced to Christ’s disciples until after the death of their Messiah. Only with the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost was a "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) implanted in Christ’s elect. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, his apostles still believed that his Kingdom would be established here on the earth, rather than in heaven. (Acts 1:6)

You cannot connect both were taken means they were both taken to heaven only because it violates your doctrine.

No Wrangler, it violates the words of Jesus to assume what you do. No human went to heaven before Jesus....he said so, so argue with him. (John 3:13) He said he "descended from heaven".....that just drifts right by you, doesn't it?

Knowledge is the fruit from the forbidden tree.

No sorry...wrong again. It wasn't "the tree of knowledge"...it was the tree of a particular kind of knowledge....the "knowledge of good and evil".....the kind of knowledge that God never wanted the human race to deal with.....deciding for themselves what is good and what is evil......free will can warp that concept if it is abused, as satan demonstrated. Kept within the confines of the limits he set on the exercise of their free will, all of God's children could have avoided the outcome that we have endured for all of our history......but at the end of this exercise mankind will have experienced only the consequences of "evil"......the "good" is yet to come, foreshadowed by the life that God originally gave to his first human children...and it will restored thanks to the rescue mission that Jesus willingly undertook. (Rev 21:2-4; Isaiah 55:11)

Knowledge is only an enemy to a believer in God to prioritize knowlege over a relationship with God.

This just makes me smile Wrangler.....as if "a relationship with God" can be based on anything else....where do we get our knowledge of God in the first place? From his written word, and from the record of his dealings with flawed humanity for the past 6,000 years.....where do we find out about God's son and the sacrifice he made?...and what the apostles taught, guided by their Master after his death? Why do you think we have a Bible?

Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler...it appears that you fear that it might prove you wrong.....apparently you cannot accommodate that, so you roast anyone who disagrees with you. What makes you think you are right above all others? What if you have it all wrong? When will you know? How will you feel?

The 1C is NOT 'thou shall gain knowledge.' Still side stepping the lesson of Original Sin.

What??? Please tell me what you imagine "the lesson of original sin" to be? I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean....unless of course you imagine that "the tree of knowledge of good and evil", was simply a tree of all knowledge...? If so then you are barking up the wrong tree.....

Powerful is the IDOLATRY of JW.

How powerful is your own ignorance?....that is the more important question. Your 'attack' mode betrays a lack of valid 'defense'.

JW v Jw. We are all believers in God (Jw) but that does not make us a member of the works-based denomination JW.

Since all of God's worshippers were called his "witnesses", including Jesus, "doing" the will of the Father is the qualifier of makes one a "Christian" (Matthew 7:21-23)...unless you have the works to back up your faith.....it is useless.

James 2:14,17,18.....
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? . . . faith by itself, without works, is dead. . . . Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Are you missing something there?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus was executed on a torture stake, with both hands together over his head, instead of on a cross with both hands outstretched, why does Mt 27:37 say that the sign "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" was "posted above his HEAD" instead of being posted above his hands? How could it have been posted above his head if his arms were stretched out over his head?

Not rocket science.....is it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

How can I know I have eternal life?
1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

There are two kinds of life offered to two groups of people....those who are chosen as Christ's elect will be resurrected in an immortal spirit body.
They will be "kings and priests" as Jesus told John in Revelation 20:6...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

These kings and priests are heaven bound, but their subjects inherit everlasting life on earth. Kings need subjects, so if all who go to heaven are kings....over whom do they rule? And if they are to be priests as well, guiding and directing sinners back into reconciliation with God, where are the sinners for whom these priests will intercede? There are no sinners in heaven.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that the kingdom will rule mankind....
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

God's original purpose is to be restored....would you not want to live forever in paradise on earth if you knew that you would never get sick or grow old or die......that there would be no wicked people or anything to disturb the peace for anyone else? We would have forever to explore this beautiful planet and enjoy the life God originally planned for us along with all in the animal kingdom who would also cause us no harm...

Isaiah 65:17, 21-25 is a beautiful prophesy about our future....
"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart". . . .
They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.
24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah."

The Christian scriptures were written by, and for Christ's elect.....but not all Christians will go to heaven, only those chosen by God will do so, to rule over the vast majority of humans who will be brought back to live on earth......this time, forever. (John 5:28-29) Its what makes the Bible's story logical and with the happy ending we all want.....

 

[Adventageous]

There are no contradictions in our beliefs or I would have uncovered them

[1] Yes, there are contradictions in WTS beliefs.

1898:

WTS/JW "worship" Jesus, and "properly so":

“Question: The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer: Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so . . . It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father, and his agent in the creation of all things, including man,” (Watchtower, July 15, 1898, p. 216 [2337]). - https://www.watchtowerwayback.org/jw-wb/English/Magazines/The Watchtower/1898 The Watchtower.pdf​

​

“For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? And again: ‘I shall be a Father to him, and he will be a Son to me? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all God’s angels worship him,'” (New Heavens and a New Earth, 1953, p. 27-28). - https://www.watchtowerwayback.org/j...ngs/1953 New heavens and a new earth (nh).pdf​

​

Then in 1987:

WTS/JW "do not worship Jesus":

​

“What I learned was so different from what I had heard at the “Christian” school I had attended. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not worship Jesus. Rather, they worship Almighty God, the One that Jesus himself worshipped,” (Awake, Dec. 22, 1987, p. 22). - https://www.watchtowerwayback.org/jw-wb/English/Magazines/Awake/1987 Awake.pdf​

[2] Your second premise assumes that you are wise enough, or even unbiased enough, to see them (contradictions). Some persons just don't want to see contradictions, especially after declaring something to be right, when it is not.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1. If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to "receive my spirit"? How could Jesus receive Stephen's spirit if a man's spirit ceases to exist when the body dies?

What is the spirit? What does this word (spirit) mean in Greek, rather than the meaning Christendom wants to give it as a synonym for soul?
The soul and the spirit are two entirely different words with two entirely different meanings.
Strongs defines "spirit" this way....

"πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit".
So if the primary definition of "spirit" is our "breath"......that which keeps the soul (body) alive, then Stephen was asking Jesus to receive his life as the one charged by God with the resurrection.....giving back the spirit (breath) of life in the same way that he made Adam alive with the "breath (spirit) of life" in the beginning.

1. If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?

Those described in 1 Thess 4:17 are not the great crowd.....they are the elect who are left alive on earth at the coming of the Lord....These will not need to sleep in death as the other members of the elect have from the first century onward. They will be instantly transformed and "caught away to meet the Lord in the air". Read the whole passage....v13-17.

1. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two?

Again this is Paul speaking of the elect collectively....
"One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; "
This is the "body of Christ" "called to the one hope" of all going to heaven.....it is their "calling" (Heb 3:1)
Not all have the "heavenly calling".
Paul wrote...
"to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (1 Cor 1:2)
Two groups here....both have Jesus as their "Lord".

1. If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death (1Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead" (1Pet 4:6)

The spirits in prison were the demon angels who rebelled in Noah's day....not the spirits of dead people.
2 Peter 2:4...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

Jesus, after his resurrection in the spirit, went to pronounce that judgment message to those wicked spirits in Tartarus, which is not "hell" as many Bibles mistranslate.

 

[Adventageous]

The spirits in prison were the demon angels who rebelled in Noah's day....not the spirits of dead people.
2 Peter 2:4...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

Jesus, after his resurrection in the spirit, went to pronounce that judgment message to those wicked spirits in Tartarus, which is not "hell" as many Bibles mistranslate.

WTS/JW misapply 2 Peter 2:4 in that they do not understand the built in chiasm or structure of Peter & Jude, which is rightly seen here:

Michael The Archangel [X1] Appendix 1 The Epistles Of Peter & Jude Compared : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Michael The Archangel [X1] Appendix 1 The Epistles Of Peter & Jude ComparedYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

Jesus, was not preaching to the angels who sinned, by the Holy Ghost in Noah's day. He was preaching to mankind in that day, not angels. The angels which were cast out and fell, cannot receive redemption, so there is no need to preach to them.

No, Jesus, in His resurrection, went to speak to His disciples, not "wicked spirits in Tartarus". The timing of the WTS/JW is all off, as well as the events.

The phrase in 2 Peter 2:4, refers to when the angels which rebelled were cast out of Heaven (3rd), and sent into outer darkness (the 'space' between the unfallen worlds), which is what the word 'hell' generally means, a place of darkness, hidden, covered, not in the light (as Heaven is). The events of 2 Peter 2:4 took place long before the days of Noah, even before the creation of this earth.

[Rebellious Angels in Heaven before earth was created, angel-kind]

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;​

[Days of Noah, after earth was created, mankind]

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;​

[Sodom and Gomorrah, long after the flood took place, mankind]

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;​

Three differing events, in three differing times, just as Jude shows also.

[Egypt & Moses, mankind]

​

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.​

[Rebellious Angels in Heaven before earth was created, Heaven]

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.​

[Sodom and Gomorrah, long after the flood took place, mankind]

​

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

[Reverse Chiasm, "filthy dreamers defile the flesh" refers to Sodom; "despise dominion" refers to Rebellious angels in Heaven; "speak evil of dignities" refers to Moses & Egypt, with Dathan, Abiram and Korah)

​

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.​

​

For more, see previous link.

 

[Adventageous]

Paul wrote...
"to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (1 Cor 1:2)
Two groups here....both have Jesus as their "Lord".

What deception you are in!

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

[1] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth​

​

[2] with all that in every place​

There are not two groups, in which the WTS states, 1. Heavenly calling, and 2. earthly calling.

The truth in the verse is that Paul is speaking to the members at the Corinthians church specifically, hence the epistle to the Corinthians!, and all those other members in the other churches, such as a Galatia, Colossae, Rome, Ephesus, Philippi, Antioch, Jerusalem, Asia, etc, etc.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.​

​

1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.​

​

1Co 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.​

​

1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.​

[1] even so do ye (Corinthian members)​

​

[2] to the churches of Galatia (Galatian members), "Jerusalem" (members in Jerusalem), "Ephesus" (members at Ephesus that Paul would stay with, etc), "churches of Asia" (the Asian members), and those in Aquila and Priscilla's house too.​

They all have the same calling in Christ Jesus, not two callings.