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A simple way to understand the Trinity

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Buzzfruit, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    A simple way to understand the Trinity
    The Spirit of God
    The Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is God in action; whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned, it means that God is doing something….God would not be God if He could not act.
    Here are seven examples
    1
    Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV)
    [sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    [sup]2 [/sup]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    2
    Numbers 24:2 (ASV)
    [sup]2 [/sup]And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
    3
    1 Chronicles 12:18 (ASV)
    [sup]18 [/sup]Then the Spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the thirty, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thy helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.
    4
    Matthew 3:16 (ASV)
    [sup]16 [/sup]And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
    5
    Matthew 12:28 (ASV)
    [sup]28 [/sup]But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
    6
    Luke 1:35 (ASV)
    [sup]35 [/sup]And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.
    7
    Luke 1:35 (NKJV)
    [sup]35 [/sup]And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
    The Word
    The Word, who became Jesus, was and is the mind and utterance of God as you will see from the Greek below. This is why Jesus is God, because the mind of God is what God is…its God’s identity. God could not be God if He could not think and speak/utter.
    John 1:1-4, 14 (ASV)
    [sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [sup]2 [/sup]The same was in the beginning with God.
    [sup]3 [/sup]All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
    [sup]4 [/sup]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    [sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
    Jesus was God with us
    Matthew 1:23 (KJV)
    [sup]23 [/sup]Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    Notice that in John 1:3 it says all things were made by Him (the Word) and in Genesis 1:1 it says God created the heaven and the earth. To critics of the Bible this may seem to be a contradiction, but these verses only adds to the fact of what Jesus said that He and the Father are one. When Jesus does something it is the Father that is doing and when the Father is doing, it is the Holy Spirit that is doing, because they are one God. Also, there is no scripture that tells us that Jesus cease to be God when He became human; all that happened is the He added humanity to His divinity. In fact the scripture tells us that that one of His name is Immanuel.
    Isaiah 7:14 (ESV)
    [sup]14 [/sup]Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
    Immanuel
    Hebrew Word: ‏אֵל‎
    Transliteration: ēl
    Phonetic Pronunciation: ale
    Root: shortened from <H352>, Greek <G2241> and <G1664>
    Cross Reference: TWOT - 93a
    Part of Speech: n m
    Vine's Words: God
    shortened from <H352> ('ayil); strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity) :- God (god), × goodly, × great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in “-el.”
    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
    Word:
    Greek Word: λόγος
    Transliteration: logos
    Phonetic Pronunciation: log'-os
    Root: from <G3004>
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:69,505
    Part of Speech: n m
    from <G3004> (lego); something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty or motive; by extension a computation; specially (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) :- account, cause, communication, × concerning, doctrine, fame, × have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, × speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
    Quote from Holman Treasury of key Bible words
    (The) Word
    See also: Word (Hebrew) and Word (Greek)
    Greek expression: ho logos
    Pronunciation: haw; LAW gawss
    Strong’s Number: <G3056>
    In the opening verse of John’s Gospel, he named the Son of God “the Word.” As “the Word,” the Son of God fully conveys and communicates God. The Greek term is logos; it was used in two ways by the Greeks. “The word” might be thought of as remaining within a person, when it denoted his or her “thought or reason.” Or it might refer to “the word” going forth from a person, when it denoted “the expression of his or her thought”—such as speech. As a philosophical term, the logos denoted the “principle of the universe,” even the creative energy that generated the universe. In both the Jewish conception and the Greek, the logos was associated with the idea of beginnings—the world began through the origination and instrumentality of “the Word.” This is seen in Genesis 1:3 where the expression “God said” is used again and again.
    John may have had these ideas about “the word” in mind, but most likely he originated a new term to identify the Son of God as the divine expression in human form (John 1:14). He is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15), the express image of God’s substance (Heb. 1:3). In the Godhead, the Son not only reveals God, but also reveals the reality of God, which is a central theme throughout John’s Gospel. John used a similar title in his first epistle: “the Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3). And in Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus is presented as the King of kings and Lord of lords, who has a name on Him: “the Word of God.”
    Before coming to earth, “the Word” lived in the beginning with God and was Himself God. This is a paradox beyond explanation: how can one be with God and yet also be God? What we gather from the first verse is that “the Word,” who is both the Son of God and God, lived in face-to-face fellowship with God His Father. The last verse of the prologue (John 1:18) tells us that the Son was in the bosom of the Father. In Jesus’ intercessory prayer (John 17) He revealed that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world. We cannot imagine the extent of their union and communion.
    Key Verses
    “The Word’s” first act was to work with God in creating the universe. His second great act was to come to men as the light of life. The essential nature of “the Word” is “life” (Greek, zōē), and this life gives light to people who live in darkness. The divine life resided in “the Word,” and He made it available to all who believe in Him.
    — Holman Treasury of Key Bible Words
    Jesus said that He issued from God; If Jesus is, or was a separate being from God He would not use this word. This was not simply a departing from the Father’s as one would if you were standing in the presence of another person, then departing…..when you do that it would not be said that you issue or issued from that person. Jesus issued from God, like water coming from a tap or pipe. Jesus issued from God because He is the mind and utterance of God….that’s why He is referred to as the word in John.
    John 16:27-28 (KJV)
    [sup]27 [/sup]For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
    [sup]28 [/sup]I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
    Came out/ came forth:
    Greek Word: ἐξέρχομαι
    Transliteration: exerchomai
    Phonetic Pronunciation:ex-er'-khom-ahee
    Root: from <G1537> and <G2064>
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:678,257
    Part of Speech: v
    Vine's Words: Come, Came, Depart, Get, Got, Gotten, Proceed
    from <G1537> (ek) and <G2064> (erchomai); to issue (literal or figurative) :- come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.
    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
    Jesus and His Father are one
    John 10:30 (ASV)
    [sup]30 [/sup]I and the Father are one.
    One:
    Greek Word: εἷς
    Transliteration: heis
    Phonetic Pronunciation:hice
    Root: (including the neuter [etc.] hen)
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:434,214
    Part of Speech: numeral
    Vine's Words: One, Other
    (including the neuter [etc.] hen); a primary numeral; one:- a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also <G1527> (heis kath' heis), <G3367> (medeis), <G3391> (mia), <G3762> (oudeis).
    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
    Jesus said He was in heaven though He was on the earth
    John 3:13 (KJV)
    [sup]13 [/sup]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    Jesus was able to say this because as He said, “I and the Father are one.” What Jesus is saying is that He and the Father is the same God.
    But at the same time, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are also distinct.
    John 1:1-2, 14 (ASV)
    [sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [sup]2 [/sup]The same was in the beginning with God.
    Matthew 3:17 (ASV)
    [sup]17 [/sup]and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    John 16:13-14 (ASV)
    [sup]13 [/sup]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
    [sup]14 [/sup]He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.
    God made mankind in His image
    When God said let us make man in our image, it was God the Father who was doing the uttering, just as you or I would utter something. Our utterance, which is simply our thoughts being heard, is the person. Without your mind you will not be you….your mind is your identity. This is why we are in the image of God. When you understand truly what is meant when God said, “let is make man in our image”, then the Trinity will not seem like a mystery.
    Genesis 1:26 (ASV)
    [sup]26 [/sup]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    We are in the image of God because we can think and speak; we can act or take action to do what we have in our thoughts. And we are like God because our thoughts are subjected to us-the one doing the uttering.
    So in a sense we are a trinity, mind, body and spirit.
     
  2. Perspectives

    Perspectives New Member

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    Hummm....I thought you said simple. At the top of your post you said God would not be God if He couldn't act. Did He stop resting? Seems very clear that He rested from ALL His works after the sixth day. In other words, everything He will ever do has already been done in eternity and moved along the timeline to be slotted into it's perfect point of manifestation or act. If His people would do the same and lay down our own creations/works the Trinity conundrum would be simple, He's God Almighty and there's not any deficet in the other two, period. It's a constant ongoing operation.
     
  3. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    There is a big difference between not being able to do something and the choice of stop doing something. So I did not say God could not be God if stoped doing.



    Because God has rested from His work does not mean He will remain in that state forever. The creation is not finished.....it has been subjected to a state of bondage and will not be set free until the Children of God has been liberated from their bondage. God intends for the planets that He created to be inhabited with living things and even intelligent life. So we won't see the potential of these plants until when God makes all things new.
     
  4. Perspectives

    Perspectives New Member

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    Then go with that.
     
  5. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    :huh:
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    1 Tim 2:5

    Very simple!

    So the Bible teaches us the following:
    • The Bible is the inspired Word of God and the sole authoritative source of Christian doctrine and practice
    • The Father alone is God
    • Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but not God himself
    • The Holy Spirit is the power of God, but not God himself
    • Jesus Christ died for our sins and was raised to immortality by the Father
    If one reads the volumes of articles written by the Catholic church on the trinity and compare these evil works to the simplicity of 1 Tim 2:5, one wonders why they are the apostate church?


    Their many books!
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    John 5:17 "But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working" (BBE).
     
  8. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    anything that takes that much explaining cannot be simple :D

    simple trinity = oxy moron
     
  9. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    I think what Big Picture might be saying is God has stopped creating.
     
  10. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Actually your point is interesting.

    It was sin that caused God to come out of His rest...else the Father would have no need to send the Angel into the garden to speak to the first pair in the fallen state. (Heb 1:14)

    I think this working together (not creative as Buzz has stated) both Father and Son labouring to bringing about that same rest in the earth.
    .
    Of course God is never physically weary (Isa 40:28), although He has invested great time and energy throughout 1000's of years to restore His cursed earth.
    .
    John 5:17 Sin having been committed, the Father's rest was broken, and through the Elohim (angels), and later the Lord Jesus, He commenced again to labour on behalf of His family.

    We are the recipients of their labours.


    True
     
  11. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    but according to Paul, God was still in his rest

    Hebrews 4:6-7

    Gods rest day was still in progress in the first century, Christians were invited to enter into it.... so he must still be resting.

    So I think the 'rest' has to do with 'creative' works. It was after God created Eve that he rested. From that point on, what he had created was given time to come to its fruition...mankind was to be born into the earth, to populate it and govern it and extend the boarders of eden right around the globe. ​
     
  12. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The explanation might not be simple (I could have explained it in a few sentences but some would ask what scriptures in the Bible that would support what I am saying) but if one understand what I am saying in the OP they will see how simple the trinity is to understand.

    The God – the one who spoke/Word/Logos/utterance.

    Word/Logos/Utterance - The God made audible or the voice of The God and therefore = is God.
    Holy Spirit - God in action.
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Yes God finished His work of creation on the 6th day and rested on the 7th, (Sabbath) day.

    But the "rest" of creation in Heb 4:4 is not the "rest" Heb 4:5 / Psa 95:11. It is only a type of that "rest". The true "rest" will never be achieved until the end of the Millennium Age. :)

    Buzz - I should make it clear I was not critising your OP but rather the amount of material used by the churches to explain the Trinity.

    I will drift away into the background...bye!

    Insight
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Father - mind
    Son - heart
    Holy Spirit - action
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That is a fascinating perspective. Thank you for sharing that. It certainly deserves more pondering as it may be a key that affects how we see other things.

     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Trinity believers often get very hyped up when they come face to face with One True God believers who say that Jesus is the glorified Son of God and the very first and last creation directly of God. (And the reverse is also true.)

    Yet Trinity believers will point proudly to doubting Thomas and say that Thomas finally recognized Jesus as God there at John 20:28.

    I am not now going to debate their interpretation but I would like to ask them a question or two:

    How did Jesus treat Thomas before that moment where you say Thomas first recognized Jesus as being God?

    And this next question is for everyone:

    Did Jesus or any of the Apostles and Paul ever dog anyone solely for their beliefs?

    They certainly dealt with beliefs and tried to assist others to correct their beliefs but did they dog them for their beliefs?

    When Jesus told anyone that they were bound for Gehenna was he attacking their beliefs or was he telling them the consequences of clearly wicked actions they manifested? For example, he knew the Pharisees and the religious leaders were plotting to kill him and they were using wicked treachery to trap him.
     
  17. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    And please don't think that I am saying anyone on this thread is dogging anyone else.

    I simply believe that the more we more alarm that we are able to take out of our impression of what others believe the better we become at reasoning together.

    There is no need to be alarmed by what others believe if we see that God is in charge of making it grow.

    We first seek to sow the soil of peace and then good things can grow.
     
  18. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    Most of that old not be support in scripture though. Are you saying the son is like a heart that pumps blood in God's body? In the king James version of the Bible; king James confuse the heart that pumps blood throughout the body as the place for the human emotion. The mind and our emotion are one and is not in separate organ of the body.
     
  19. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Good question.

    The immediate issue facing a trinity believer is the verse does not say "God the Son".

    So we are left to address in what way Thomas saw Jesus as God, but clearly not being "Very God?"

    Well firstly we need to establish if this is unique in all Scripture. Can we find other instances were subjects are called God or god?

    It’s no surprise we do find many places that refer to such a title as God: angels are spoken of as being God; See Gen 16:13; 18:13; Exo 23:20,21; Hos 12:3,5; Men also in Exo 22:28; 22:6; 21:8 (elohim); Psa 138:1; Joh 10:34 (cit Psa 82:1,6); The Messiah even before his birth in Isa 8:13,14; 61:1,6; 64:4; 65:16; Zec 12:10; Mal 3:1; Joh 20:28; Heb 1:8.

    This account really takes me back to Exo 23:21 where God was warning Israel concerning the Angel of His Presence, who fully represented Yahweh on earth. His name (Yahweh) being actually in the angel carried Yahweh’s authority, as if God were speaking!!!

    To Israel this Angel was God!

    However, this does not address your question.

    When we move into the record it gets really interesting to see Thomas mind work and the Greek picks it up beautifully.

    For instance John 20:25 he states “I Will Not Believe” – in the Greek it’s a double negative: “I will never, never believe”

    Now the doors are shut!....and Christ is standing in the midst of them! Marvellous! this dear readers is utterly marvellous -- Jesus promised them he would be in the midst of two or three who gather in his name! (Whereas the Angel would go out in front! Exod 23:21! & Jesus who has Gods name in him now in the midst Matt 18:20!!!) And even today He still walks in the midst his true disciples Rev 2:1

    So Jesus now Speaks!

    “Peace Be Unto Thee” – he repeats the formal greeting in John 20:19. Note: He had also promised them ‘his peace’ in John 14:27

    Jesus then directs his attention directly towards Thomas (can you imagine the look?) he reveals his knowledge of Thomas’ protest openly before all those he doubted! Jesus can do this because he knew what was in man John 2:24,25

    And then Jesus calmly speaks to Thomas “Be Not Faithless But Believing” this literally means “become not unbelieving, but believing”.

    Jesus is saying "Thomas you need to put away you backward spirit!"

    Now notice how his answer comes with not touching the Lords body?

    “My Lord and My God” “kurious”, “theos”). These are the Titles used of “God” or “god” but I believe in Thomas’ mind he perceived to see Jesus as now fully representing God on Earth. Exo 23:21

    Of course verse John 20:31KJV is recorded so we don’t jump to any unfounded conclusions about which Jesus really is but none the less it reveals beautifully the position which His Father has now given him having overcome the trials in his flesh.

    Jesus is the "Son of God” and not “God the Son”! John 20:31.

    Insight


    p.s Thanks Vengle...I really enjoyed revisiting this beautiful section of Scripture...it certainly comes to life!...(Living Word not just ink on a page [​IMG])
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    A few thoughts about Thomas’ Character:

    I haven’t time now but you can prove from the record that Thomas was a man of commonsense, he was very determined and somewhat of a stubborn person. He refused to believe the Apostles witness of Jesus resurrection until he saw evidence.

    These type of commonsense people struggle to lift their minds upwards and often need to see evidence before they are converted. You will note that his ccommonsense told him it was suicidal to go to Jerusalem, yet he courageously followed his Lord. This alone would have been very difficult for Thomas! John 11:16

    So we cannot accuse Thomas of not having courage! but we can see within his character being so practically minded that seeing the “unseen” was not easy for him. I perceive him to be a simplistic man who at times is sceptical about the unknown.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Perspectives

    Perspectives New Member

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    Ecclesiastes 1:9 That which has been is what will be. That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. But, it is new to us. Ya, He's done with creating, and is resting..... has finished what He created and then sets about to manifest in His own perfect timing what He has done that is always of eternal value. We must begin to think in eternal terms if we want to know more about an eternal being. For example, if you can hear it, we all get to Heaven at once (not at one time) at once. Nobody is waiting for anybody to arrive in Heaven, in reality, we are already there. Embrace the Bigger Picture!
     
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