A Simple Yet Irrefutable Reason The Catholic church Is Not Rooted In Christ's Church

[amigo de christo]

Very interesting, the supposed “Apostolic oral tradition” about Mary was so supposedly highlighted, orally, in Great Detail, that when Mentioning Mary IN Scripture, not ONE of those supposed oral traditions was even slightly hinted or recorded IN Scripture by a single Apostle.

Sounds more like a preservation of man-made ideologies tagging the ideologies with the name Apostolic, to imply validity via the Apostles, who in fact taught no such things about Mary.

BINGO and many other like things they have done . FLEE the CC is all i can say . Very dangerous .

 

[atpollard]

In the Bible - the Greek words for “brother” (adelphos) and “adelphoi” were used much more liberally than the normal meaning.

… making all translators IDIOTS for mistranslating such a WELL KNOWN concept.

However, it changes nothing about the fact that we cannot read the Bible and believe ANYTHING that it says because God and the Translators deliberately obfuscated the truth … so we can only trust the RUMORS heard from PRIESTS based on “sacred traditions” which contradict the verbatim “Scripture”.

 

[atpollard]

Now how about YOU showing me a single verse that says Mary was the mother of Somebody OTHER than Jesus??

[Mat 12:46 NASB95] 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
[Luk 8:19 NASB95] 19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.
[Mat 12:47 NASB95] 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
[Mat 13:55 NASB95] 55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
[Mar 3:31-32 NASB95] 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent [word] to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
[Luk 8:20 NASB95] 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You."
[Jhn 2:12 NASB95] 12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and [His] brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.
[Act 1:14 NASB95] 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with [the] women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

 

[atpollard]

[Mat 12:46 NASB95] 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
[Luk 8:19 NASB95] 19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.
[Mat 12:47 NASB95] 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
[Mat 13:55 NASB95] 55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
[Mar 3:31-32 NASB95] 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent [word] to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
[Luk 8:20 NASB95] 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You."
[Jhn 2:12 NASB95] 12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and [His] brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.
[Act 1:14 NASB95] 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with [the] women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Jesus had GOD as a father and Mary as a mother. As “brothers”, they shared at least ONE parent in common. Were they related through a common father (GOD) or a common mother (Mary) or two parents in common?

 

[atpollard]

Maybe YOU should worry about the very SAME sex problem going on in YOUR sect before you start pointing fingers . . .

MY COMPLAINT was not that the RCC has molesters among its ranks. As you pointed out, that is a problem common to all denominations. My COMPLAINT is that BISHOPS and CARDINALS are punished by Rome for exposing the RCC to public criticism and, therefore, forced to shuffle molesters to protect the CHURCH rather than the members. THAT is a unique RCC evil that points out the folly of trusting those same men as the only source of TRUTH. (Since Tradition belongs to the Clergy and Scripture does not mean what it says … like “brother”.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

… making all translators IDIOTS for mistranslating such a WELL KNOWN concept.

However, it changes nothing about the fact that we cannot read the Bible and believe ANYTHING that it says because God and the Translators deliberately obfuscated the truth … so we can only trust the RUMORS heard from PRIESTS based on “sacred traditions” which contradict the verbatim “Scripture”.

Educated scholars with OPEN minds understand these passages.
It’s only closed-minded people like YOU with an anti-Catholic agenda that refuse to accept the truthgs I laid out in my last post with regard to the “Adelphoi” of Jesus.

Peter wrote:
2 Pet. 1:19-20
And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

This should be a gigantic RED FLAG to all of you Lone Rangers out there who believe that the Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit guides EVERY INDIVIDUAL to all truth (John 16:12-15).

He put His Church in charge for this very reason – so that His sheep would NOT descend into a confused gaggle of factions separated by personal interpretations.

That is precisely what happened after the 16th century with the Protestant Revolt.
Even Luther lamented:
"There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams." - Martin Luther, Christians at Antwerp, 1525

I think in some ways, he regretted the MESS he created . . .

 

[atpollard]

Which things that you must affirm do you have a problem with?

I find little to no support for your Mariology.
It seems inappropriate to claim to be Catholic and to disbelieve in Perpetual Virginity, Mary’s Assumption, Mary as Queen of Heaven or praying to any saints for intercession.

I have enough sins in my past and life without deliberately courting hypocrisy.

 

[atpollard]

Educated scholars with OPEN minds understand these passages.

See post #123 and show me an Educated scholar that “correctly” translated these people who shared neither a common father or mother with Jesus as something other than the deliberately misleading English word “brother”. If they UNDERSTOOD, then why did they deliberately mistranslate?

 

[BreadOfLife]

MY COMPLAINT was not that the RCC has molesters among its ranks. As you pointed out, that is a problem common to all denominations. My COMPLAINT is that BISHOPS and CARDINALS are punished by Rome for exposing the RCC to public criticism and, therefore, forced to shuffle molesters to protect the CHURCH rather than the members.

Can you give me a LIST of Bishops and Cardinals who were “punished” for exposing the Church’s position – and please include their subsequent “punishments”.
MY COMPLAINT is that you guys vomit out a LOT of claims – but NOT much evidence . . .

THAT is a unique RCC evil that points out the folly of trusting those same men as the only source of TRUTH. (Since Tradition belongs to the Clergy and Scripture does not mean what it says … like “brother”.)

This is almost too asinine to address – but here goes . . .
First of all – the Church does NOT claim to be the “ONLY source of truth.

The very Scriptures that YOU purport to be our “SOLE” Authority have THIS to say about the Church:
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus gave His Church Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church declared on earth will also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).
Secondly – not ALL priests and clergy are child molesters – anymore than ALL Protestant ministers are. Tin fact – only a very small percentage of clergy were even implicated.

So – YOUR comment that it is a “folly” to trust the vast majority of the clergy with guarding the truth is utterly stupid – even for you . . .

 

[atpollard]

I think in some ways, he regretted the MESS he created . . .

Technically, the mess ROME created.
Luther (for his many flaws) attempted to present his case to the Church calling for reform of the evils that the Church did reform a hundred years later. The corrupt leaders in the Church attempted to assassinate Luther … leaving him little choice but to leave or die.

 

[atpollard]

Can you give me a LIST …

Yes, but you would ignore it like you have everything else.

 

[BreadOfLife]

See post #123 and show me an Educated scholar that “correctly” translated these people who shared neither a common father or mother with Jesus as something other than the deliberately misleading English word “brother”. If they UNDERSTOOD, then why did they deliberately mistranslate?

Ummmm, I HATE to be the one to break this to you, but the Bible wa NOT written in English.

The OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek.
About 200 years before Jesus was born, the Greek Translation of the OT was transcribed and is known as the “Septuagint” because of the SEVENTY scholars who translated it,

If you’re NOT equipped to discuss the Biblical and Linguistic arguments I made in post #120 – just say so . . .

 

[atpollard]

The very Scriptures that YOU purport to be our “SOLE” Authority have THIS to say about the Church:

Sorry, but you have already demonstrated that we cannot trust the scriptures.

• Scripture says Jesus has brothers, but Rome says “not so”.
• Scripture says Mary was the wife of Joseph, but Rome says “not so”.
• Scripture says not to pray for the dead, but Rome says “not so”.

Thus your presented scriptures are, also, untrustworthy.

For those that reject Rome and embrace Sola Scriptura … Rome ceased being The Church when she abandoned scripture for her man-made traditions … trading the LORD for a female co-redemptrix, queen of heaven.

 

[atpollard]

If you’re NOT equipped to discuss the Biblical and Linguistic arguments I made in post #120 – just say so . . .

Those arguments are irrelevant since EVERY LINGUISTIC EXPERT that has EVER translated Greek into English has translated those verses as BROTHERS … so the REAL experts have already determined that the most accurate English translation is those were Jesus’ brothers.

English is my native language, so I know what a brother is.
I am still waiting for YOUR expert that disagrees with me and all those expert translators. Where is your translation that does not call them “brothers” in those verses? You don’t have any? That’s what I thought.

 

[Philip James]

I find little to no support for your Mariology.
It seems inappropriate to claim to be Catholic and to disbelieve in Perpetual Virginity, Mary’s Assumption, Mary as Queen of Heaven or praying to any saints for intercession.

I have enough sins in my past and life without deliberately courting hypocrisy.

Hello atpollard,

Thank you for answering my question.

While one is not obligated to venerate the Saints, the Church most certainly does.

As for asking for their aid, why wouldnt we? The communion of the saints is REAL. I have personal testimony of the efficacy of the prayers of St. André Bissette in the healing of my son..

Your issue seems more with assenting to the Marian dogmas.. Would you prefer if they were not defined?
The Orthodox also honour and venerate the Saints, of whom Mary is the greatest, they have valid sacraments, do you reject them as well?
What 2000 year old apostilic community believes as you do?
Can one just take our sacred texts and declare themselves 'church' and the apostolic communities 'false' and be believed?

Doubt over dogmas is understandable. Obstinate doubt and a refusal to accept the correction of 2000 years of ones brethen is just hubris..

'for we have the mind of Christ' is very much a communal we.

Pax et Bonum

 

[BreadOfLife]

[Mat 12:46 NASB95] 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
[Luk 8:19 NASB95] 19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.
[Mat 12:47 NASB95] 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
[Mat 13:55 NASB95] 55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
[Mar 3:31-32 NASB95] 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent [word] to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
[Luk 8:20 NASB95] 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You."
[Jhn 2:12 NASB95] 12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and [His] brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.
[Act 1:14 NASB95] 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with [the] women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Well, you FAILED – so I will ask you AGAIN:
Can you show me a SINGLE VERSE of Scripture that describes Mary as the “Mother” of ANYBODY other than Jesus - or that she had children OTHER than Jesus?

I ALREADY proved that those "Adelphoi" were the children of Mary's "Adelphe" - ALSO called "Mary, wife of Clopas/Alphaeus.

There is NOT even an extrabiblical document that makes this claim.
Happy hunting . . .

 

[BeyondET]

Yes, but you would ignore it like you have everything else.

that one is set in stone, they don't like catholic criticism lol.

 

[BeyondET]

[Mat 12:46 NASB95] 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
[Luk 8:19 NASB95] 19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.
[Mat 12:47 NASB95] 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
[Mat 13:55 NASB95] 55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
[Mar 3:31-32 NASB95] 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent [word] to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
[Luk 8:20 NASB95] 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You."
[Jhn 2:12 NASB95] 12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and [His] brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.
[Act 1:14 NASB95] 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with [the] women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Joseph and Mary could of been pumping them out like rabbits. But the few children mentioned in scripture may or may not be fully biological siblings. Joseph may have had children before marriage with Mary who knows.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those arguments are irrelevant since EVERY LINGUISTIC EXPERT that has EVER translated Greek into English has translated those verses as BROTHERS … so the REAL experts have already determined that the most accurate English translation is those were Jesus’ brothers.

English is my native language, so I know what a brother is.
I am still waiting for YOUR expert that disagrees with me and all those expert translators. Where is your translation that does not call them “brothers” in those verses? You don’t have any? That’s what I thought.

That is an idiotically ignorant argument – and it’s painfully obvious that you know NOTHING about languages.

In Acts 1 – Peter talks to about 120 people in the upper Room.
He says:
Acts 1:15-17
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (Adelphoi) (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, “Brothers (Adelphoi) and sisters (Adelphe),[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

Sooooo – here we have the words “Brother, Sisters and Believers – and they are ALL Adelphoi.
WHAT word should the English interpreter have used?

 

[atpollard]

Well, you FAILED – so I will ask you AGAIN:
Can you show me a SINGLE VERSE of Scripture that describes Mary as the “Mother” of ANYBODY other than Jesus - or that she had children OTHER than Jesus?

I ALREADY proved that those "Adelphoi" were the children of Mary's "Adelphe" - ALSO called "Mary, wife of Clopas/Alphaeus.

There is NOT even an extrabiblical document that makes this claim.
Happy hunting . . .

I understand … you have it correct and every Greek Scholar that translated any Bible into English was unfamiliar with the English word “cousin” … I just do not believe you.