A small rapture?

[Randy Kluth]

Hal Lindsey along with the 'Left Behind' series are fictional fantasies! When the last trumpet begins to sound that Christ has come again, I don't believe the raptured saints, or God will be worrying about those who are left behind on this earth. Because all of them are destined to the wrath of God by fire that shall come down from God out of heaven to burn up this earth and every living thing still left upon it. On that day every human being ever to have been born from Adam shall either be caught up or left behind to be caught on fire. According to the Bible here is a depiction of what those left behind will be doing on that day when the wrath of God shall come. (Rev 6:15-17) At the same time the great innumerable multitude of the redeemed shall be changed and caught up to meet with the Lord in the air until the wrath of God by fire upon all that is left on the earth is finished.

Revelation 6:15-17 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I understand. That's an amillennial position, which is fine if that's what you believe. My problem is concerned with the premillennial scenario. I believe people will survive Armageddon. But I suppose we'll see?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth,"

Read it. I lived in Torrance , California for 30 years, so I would visit his church, Tetelestai on occasion. I was impressed too, being a young Christian. I think he was a whistle-blower, but just did not have the timing right. Back then, they were interpreting one generation as 40 years, so when 1988 came and went, people started doubting his predictions and disbelieving, which is not fair to trash e erything he claimed. Psalm 90:10 says a generation is 70-80 years.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

Impressive. Although David Koresh memorized the entire Bible ... but he had it wrong. Not trying to be disparaging, it's a good practice to memorize scripture. Rabbis were required to memorize Isaiah.

I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation.

I would also visit Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa in the early 90's, he was certainly ordained by God. His decades of preaching and seeds planted resulted in over 2000 Calvary Chapels and millions of believers. His timing about just when the rapture would happen, along with many other preachers in his time, was just off. But the generation is not. How could so many of these preachers, who were gifted, be right about so much, and being filled with the Spirit, but wrong about their Eschatology? Well, I think God intended the end times to be somewhat of an unsolved mystery, which is why there are many scholarly views.
I have to admit, I was taken in initially by the Pre-Trib doctrine ... even read all Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series. But something also seemed off. Certain scriptures did not fit into this scenario and of course they would explain them away.
The main phrase to me that was crucial to identify and an the obstacle, was the "last trumpet" in 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. They could not accept that the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15 was the last, it couldn't be, because that would completely dismantle their Pre-Trib view. But it would also dismantle the Post Trib view as well, because at the 7th Trump, there is still more to come.
You saw in 2 Thes. 1:7 " ...This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels".
That is true, when He comes, He separates the sheep from the goats and then likely moments after that happens, every eye sees Him. (Of coursethe Pre-Trib view separates the rapture from His coming by 7 years). I disagree and also am not an adherent to the Daniel 9:27 Gap Theory. Moving on, He brings wrath, ( the bowls of wrath), wages was against his enemies - so it can't be Post -Trib. It is Mid-Trib.
Now what else identifies this timing?
2 Thes. 2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed ..."
So, the Church is raptured, when the Antichrist is revealed, Jesus appears and at the last trumpet.
What other evidence do we see? Rev. 7:9,14 A multitude is seen in heaven ( that no one could number) who just came out of the tribulation.
That is no small rapture (likely 2.7 billion)
Okay, but the 7th Trumpet happens at Rev. 11:15. Rev. 7:9 and 11:15 are different vantage points of the same event. Read Rev. 11:15-19. What else happens at that time? Heaven opens, judgment, rewards are given, salvation, worship, etc. Revelation is not chronological. God shows us events one by one, but many are happening simultaneously, overlapping and accumulating as well.
The trumpets are blown rapidly _ in heaven _ by angles ( not by men as part of an earthly "feast of trumpets" on earth), and actually along with the bowls they fall within the Seals. Confusing? Yes, has been. I see Revelation as a transparent, multi- dimensional sphere of events. As you turn this sphere, you see other events within overlaping.
Look at Rev. 7. These 144k are chosen, marked by God when? Before any damage comes to the earth. How is that possible if the events of the first six seals have already taken place? It's not, they haven't. Actually, Jesus opened the Scroll with the Seven Seals right when He arrived in Heaven after His ascension. It is a written prophetic scroll of events that take place in the future. John sees what they represent. With each seal, the angel says, "come and see", taking him to a vision of the future, what tha seal represents. The scroll is the play but the actions don't take place until the stage is set and trumpets are blown and actors appear.

BThatut will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like

Took me thirty years to make sense of it.
I have held the Mid-Trib. The multitude is taken out of the tribulation, which means it is going on, but not over. Hopefully towards the beginning and not he end of it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read it. I lived in Torrance , California for 30 years, so I would visit his church, Tetelestai on occasion. I was impressed too, being a young Christian. I think he was a whistle-blower, but just did not have the timing right. Back then, they were interpreting one generation as 40 years, so when 1988 came and went, people started doubting his predictions and disbelieving, which is not fair to trash e erything he claimed. Psalm 90:10 says a generation is 70-80 years.

Impressive. Although David Koresh memorized the entire Bible ... but he had it wrong. Not trying to be disparaging, it's a good practice to memorize scripture. Rabbis were required to memorize Isaiah.

I would also visit Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa in the early 90's, he was certainly ordained by God. His decades of preaching and seeds planted resulted in over 2000 Calvary Chapels and millions of believers. His timing about just when the rapture would happen, along with many other preachers in his time, was just off. But the generation is not. How could so many of these preachers, who were gifted, be right about so much, and being filled with the Spirit, but wrong about their Eschatology? Well, I think God intended the end times to be somewhat of an unsolved mystery, which is why there are many scholarly views.
I have to admit, I was taken in initially by the Pre-Trib doctrine ... even read all Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series. But something also seemed off. Certain scriptures did not fit into this scenario and of course they would explain them away.
The main phrase to me that was crucial to identify and an the obstacle, was the "last trumpet" in 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. They could not accept that the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15 was the last, it couldn't be, because that would completely dismantle their Pre-Trib view. But it would also dismantle the Post Trib view as well, because at the 7th Trump, there is still more to come.
You saw in 2 Thes. 1:7 " ...This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels".
That is true, when He comes, He separates the sheep from the goats and then likely moments after that happens, every eye sees Him. (Of coursethe Pre-Trib view separates the rapture from His coming by 7 years). I disagree and also am not an adherent to the Daniel 9:27 Gap Theory. Moving on, He brings wrath, ( the bowls of wrath), wages was against his enemies - so it can't be Post -Trib. It is Mid-Trib.
Now what else identifies this timing?
2 Thes. 2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed ..."
So, the Church is raptured, when the Antichrist is revealed, Jesus appears and at the last trumpet.
What other evidence do we see? Rev. 7:9,14 A multitude is seen in heaven ( that no one could number) who just came out of the tribulation.
That is no small rapture (likely 2.7 billion)
Okay, but the 7th Trumpet happens at Rev. 11:15. Rev. 7:9 and 11:15 are different vantage points of the same event. Read Rev. 11:15-19. What else happens at that time? Heaven opens, judgment, rewards are given, salvation, worship, etc. Revelation is not chronological. God shows us events one by one, but many are happening simultaneously, overlapping and accumulating as well.
The trumpets are blown rapidly _ in heaven _ by angles ( not by men as part of an earthly "feast of trumpets" on earth), and actually along with the bowls they fall within the Seals. Confusing? Yes, has been. I see Revelation as a transparent, multi- dimensional sphere of events. As you turn this sphere, you see other events within overlaping.
Look at Rev. 7. These 144k are chosen, marked by God when? Before any damage comes to the earth. How is that possible if the events of the first six seals have already taken place? It's not, they haven't. Actually, Jesus opened the Scroll with the Seven Seals right when He arrived in Heaven after His ascension. It is a written prophetic scroll of events that take place in the future. John sees what they represent. With each seal, the angel says, "come and see", taking him to a vision of the future, what tha seal represents. The scroll is the play but the actions don't take place until the stage is set and trumpets are blown and actors appear.

Took me thirty years to make sense of it.
I have held the Mid-Trib. The multitude is taken out of the tribulation, which means it is going on, but not over. Hopefully towards the beginning and not he end of it.

Thank you for your detailed response! There are so many things to address, though I probably don't have to address all of them at once. It's so much easier agreeing or disagreeing with a good spirit like yours! I definitely appreciate it--it's kind of rare.

Anyway, on Hal Lindsey and on a personal note, I attended Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim where he taught. In fact I lived in Anaheim at that time, but chose to attend Walter Martin's class instead of Hal Lindsey's class. Martin was Postrib, and Lindsey I liked despite the fact he was Pretrib. That period of time was the time I seriously questioned my Postrib beliefs because I had been listening to Chuck Smith's daily radio broadcast and had just read his commentary on the Revelation.

Both Calvary Chapel and Melodyland were churches with Pretrib pastors, but Ralph Wilkerson of Melodyland welcomed me despite my Postrib beliefs, and Chuck Smith rejected me for my Postrib beliefs. I was informed of this through correspondence--not in person. I knew neither one personally.

I asked Martin, by letter, to put out something on his Postrib beliefs, and he apparently complied. You can still access that recording here on the internet. By contrast, Hal Lindsey would never reply to any letters I sent him. He is a hardened Pretribber out of Dallas Theological Seminary.

I admit that biblical eschatology appears to be confused and nearly undecipherable. However, over many years I've become fairly comfortable with it, particularly when I've tried to explain WHY the various disagreements emerged. That explains a lot!

I agree that the book of Revelation is not chronological. It's a single narrative, but each vision may have its own particular chronology. They appear more to be layers of transparencies that can be overlaid to fill in the picture. But it helps to see each vision separately to emphasize different elements of this picture.

The book of Revelation was never meant to be a Nostradamus production. It doesn't try to be a crystal ball, but rather, a general picture of how we live for Christ in our present world. It teaches us what to expect in our Christian lives so that we are better prepared.

There's a lot more I could say in response to your message, but I'll leave it for now. Thanks again!

 

[Keraz]

What other evidence do we see? Rev. 7:9,14 A multitude is seen in heaven ( that no one could number) who just came out of the tribulation.
That is no small rapture (likely 2.7 billion)

You have added to Revelation. 'heaven' is never said to be where John saw the vast multitude.
Rev 7:9 is an earthly scene, they wave palm branches and Gods Throne can be seen from the earth, if God wills it.

It would be far better for people to reject the 'rapture to heaven' idea altogether.
It just becomes a joke to see the convoluted and plain foolish attempts made, to fit in the fanciful notion that God is going to take away His people, to the Spiritual place where He lives.
We are earth beings and we never leave the home God made for us. Eventually, in the new earth; God will come to dwell with mankind, Revelation 21:1-7

 

[ewq1938]

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes.

The world will be extremely religious during the trib because the Ac will claim to be god and people will accept him as such. It will be a time of peace and safety for them so no nuclear bunkers or wars etc. Christians who will refuse to accept the AC as god and worship him will be killed or imprisoned. The rapture happens once the trib is over, when Christ returns so none of them will be driving cars or flying planes when they are caught up to the clouds.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The world will be extremely religious during the trib because the Ac will claim to be god and people will accept him as such. It will be a time of peace and safety for them so no nuclear bunkers or wars etc. Christians who will refuse to accept the AC as god and worship him will be killed or imprisoned. The rapture happens once the trib is over, when Christ returns so none of them will be driving cars or flying planes when they are caught up to the clouds.

Yes, I agree. I was just looking at how Pretrib movies depict the Rapture, as drivers go missing, leaving cars untended, etc. It seems so unlike God to have that happen.

Paul certainly didn't anticipate this kind of thing with all of the modern technology. So I'm just trying to picture how it may happen.

Those who follow the Beast will obviously not go in any Rapture. And those who die for their faith will not disappear from the driver's seat, leaving unbelieving passengers to die in a car wreck.

So I'm just trying to picture what God has in mind? Any thoughts are welcome!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The main phrase to me that was crucial to identify and an the obstacle, was the "last trumpet" in 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. They could not accept that the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15 was the last, it couldn't be, because that would completely dismantle their Pre-Trib view. But it would also dismantle the Post Trib view as well, because at the 7th Trump, there is still more to come.

I will now address this, as well. If the visions are not chronologically sequenced, then the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11 can display the end of the age. The fact more visions followed, therefore, do not have to indicate more time for other events to take place after the 7th Trumpet.

Personally, I view the Scroll vision as one major vision, beginning with John's being caught up to heaven in ch. 4 to the end of ch. 11, when the 7th Trumpet is blown. After that, John sees a series of visions that clarify the period of the Antichrist's Reign, which I believe is 3.5 years. They take us all the way to to the end of the book. In effect, the book sort of looks like 2 large visions, each vision containing a number of internal smaller visions.

So Christ's Coming is depicted, I think, a number of times in different ways in the book of Revelation. He appears to come in some of the smaller, internal visions, such as in the 6th Seal. He also appears to come in the 7th Trumpet, for example.

In the 2nd half of the book Christ's Coming is displayed in numerous ways, with the harvest angels, with the Son of Man on a cloud, in his Coming with an Army, etc. So there is no simple 2nd Coming at the end of the book. There are many depictions of the same event, describing different matters.

You saw in 2 Thes. 1:7 " ...This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels".
That is true, when He comes, He separates the sheep from the goats and then likely moments after that happens, every eye sees Him. (Of coursethe Pre-Trib view separates the rapture from His coming by 7 years). I disagree and also am not an adherent to the Daniel 9:27 Gap Theory. Moving on, He brings wrath, ( the bowls of wrath), wages was against his enemies - so it can't be Post -Trib. It is Mid-Trib.
Now what else identifies this timing?
2 Thes. 2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed ..."
So, the Church is raptured, when the Antichrist is revealed, Jesus appears and at the last trumpet.
What other evidence do we see? Rev. 7:9,14 A multitude is seen in heaven ( that no one could number) who just came out of the tribulation.
...As you turn this sphere, you see other events within overlaping.
Look at Rev. 7. These 144k are chosen, marked by God when? Before any damage comes to the earth. How is that possible if the events of the first six seals have already taken place? It's not, they haven't. Actually, Jesus opened the Scroll with the Seven Seals right when He arrived in Heaven after His ascension....

I look at this a little differently. But I find it hard to determine what events in the Revelation are intended to be symbolic of future events strung together non-sequentially and what are actual events literally taking place as given?

Rev 6.15 Then the kings of the earth...hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"...
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

So will 4 angels really stand at the 4 corners of the earth *after* the kings of the earth hide from the coming of the Lamb? Or is that event simply the order of events in which John saw these various visions in a non-sequential way?

The Bible uses a very flexible form of prophetic language at times. When seeing visions you might say, "I saw that, then I saw that, then I saw that," and would not at all mean that in the future the fulfillment of each vision will take place sequentially. They are just different visions seen one after the other.

Took me thirty years to make sense of it.
I have held the Mid-Trib. The multitude is taken out of the tribulation, which means it is going on, but not over. Hopefully towards the beginning and not he end of it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You have added to Revelation. 'heaven' is never said to be where John saw the vast multitude.
Rev 7:9 is an earthly scene, they wave palm branches and Gods Throne can be seen from the earth, if God wills it.

That is a vision of heaven.
They came out of the Great Tribulation. How do billions gathered from every nation _ escape the tribulation _ that us still going on _ exchange their clothes for white robes _ bowing down at the throne of God and worshipping Him _ surrounded by angels?

It would be far better for people to reject the 'rapture to heaven' idea altogether.
It just becomes a joke to see the convoluted and plain foolish attempts made, to fit in the fanciful notion that God is going to take away His people, to the Spiritual place where He lives.

He did that to Enoch and Elijah. Abraham is up there, Paul, the Apostles, all the faithful Old Testament saints and hundreds of millions of Christians already. Jesus said He would go prepare a place, where there are many mansions, where His Father is for us.
It has been a traditional belief that we go to heaven when we die. Sidn't you get the memo? But at the resurrection, those who are alive will be snatched up as the verse describes:
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Thes. 4:17 harpazo means ( caught up, taken up, snatched away)
Does that sound like a joke to you?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I will now address this, as well. If the visions are not chronologically sequenced, then the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11 can display the end of the age. The fact more visions followed, therefore, do not have to indicate more time for other events to take place after the 7th Trumpet.

Personally, I view the Scroll vision as one major vision, beginning with John's being caught up to heaven in ch. 4 to the end of ch. 11, when the 7th Trumpet is blown. After that, John sees a series of visions that clarify the period of the Antichrist's Reign, which I believe is 3.5 years. They take us all the way to to the end of the book. In effect, the book sort of looks like 2 large visions, each vision containing a number of internal smaller visions.

So Christ's Coming is depicted, I think, a number of times in different ways in the book of Revelation. He appears to come in some of the smaller, internal visions, such as in the 6th Seal. He also appears to come in the 7th Trumpet, for example.

In the 2nd half of the book Christ's Coming is displayed in numerous ways, with the harvest angels, with the Son of Man on a cloud, in his Coming with an Army, etc. So there is no simple 2nd Coming at the end of the book. There are many depictions of the same event, describing different matters.

I look at this a little differently. But I find it hard to determine what events in the Revelation are intended to be symbolic of future events strung together non-sequentially and what are actual events literally taking place as given?

Rev 6.15 Then the kings of the earth...hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"...
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

So will 4 angels really stand at the 4 corners of the earth *after* the kings of the earth hide from the coming of the Lamb? Or is that event simply the order of events in which John saw these various visions in a non-sequential way?

The Bible uses a very flexible form of prophetic language at times. When seeing visions you might say, "I saw that, then I saw that, then I saw that," and would not at all mean that in the future the fulfillment of each vision will take place sequentially. They are just different visions seen one after the other.

Thanks for sharing your view. There are many views and so no sense in arguing about stuff we aren't exactly sure about.

 

[Keraz]

Does that sound like a joke to you?

Firstly, thanks for replying. Others here simply ignore any opposition to their beliefs.

But yes; the argument over the 'rapture to heaven', is it pre, mid or post, and why God do such a thing at all, is just a joke.
And Satan is laughing all the way to hell over how the poor saps of gullible Christians have sucked his lies in.

It has been a traditional belief that we go to heaven when we die. Sidn't you get the memo?

I have been to funerals and when the celebrant or anyone says the dear departed has gone to heaven, I just think: another white lie.
Scripture is clear; everyone who has ever lived, must await the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15
For those who have died, their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Firstly, thanks for replying. Others here simply ignore any opposition to their beliefs.

But yes; the argument over the 'rapture to heaven', is it pre, mid or post, and why God do such a thing at all, is just a joke.
And Satan is laughing all the way to hell over how the poor saps of gullible Christians have sucked his lies in.

I have been to funerals and when the celebrant or anyone says the dear departed has gone to heaven, I just think: another white lie.
Scripture is clear; everyone who has ever lived, must await the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15
For those who have died, their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God.

You say thank you, then insult me saying I am a poor sap and gullible, deceived by Satan, who is laughing at me.
Some fruit of the Spirit ... brotherly love?
No wonder people ignor your posts.
One response is worth a little research into your beliefs.
Here are a few of you quotes just to confirm your views:
Keraz said: The souls of the martyrs killed for their faith, ever since Stephen; are kept under the Altar in heaven. They 'sleep' there, but they are allowed to cry out at times. (Dec. 7, 2023, " Alternative To Rapture", post #42)

Lol, where did you get that?

Keraz said: The dead people from Adam to now, ALL 'sleep' in the grave, they know nothing until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment. Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 20:11-15 ( March 15, 2023, "The 7th Trumpet", #259)

Keraz said: Sheer fantasy! How can any human go to heaven or hell; before Judgment?
The Bible prophesies are plain; only after the Millennium, does God sit and Judge all mankind. Revelation 20:11-15 (July 4, 2022, "The Pre-Trib Rapture", #1681)

You are clearly not Pre-Millennial and not an Amillennial. You are Post-Millennial, believe in soul sleep and Replacement Theology ( Israel of God view). This I noticed in past posts. We actually went at it a few times years ago and so we kind of avoid eachother because of our differences.

These are yet other eschatological views among the long list. Imagine though if you are wrong, all those articles on Eschatology that you've written, and steered people away from the hope that the have. How shameful that moment will be. You are an iconoclast. I could shred all your views very easily, but hey, you are entitled, you're an old coot set in your ways ... no need. Keep your views, you've had them for a long time - go to sleep with them!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Firstly, thanks for replying. Others here simply ignore any opposition to their beliefs.

But yes; the argument over the 'rapture to heaven', is it pre, mid or post, and why God do such a thing at all, is just a joke.
And Satan is laughing all the way to hell over how the poor saps of gullible Christians have sucked his lies in.

I have been to funerals and when the celebrant or anyone says the dear departed has gone to heaven, I just think: another white lie.
Scripture is clear; everyone who has ever lived, must await the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15
For those who have died, their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God.

The rich man and Lazarus destroy your beliefs.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You say thank you, then insult me saying I am a poor sap and gullible, deceived by Satan, who is laughing at me.
Some fruit of the Spirit ... brotherly love?
No wonder people ignor your posts.
One response is worth a little research into your beliefs.
Here are a few of you quotes just to confirm your views:
Keraz said: The souls of the martyrs killed for their faith, ever since Stephen; are kept under the Altar in heaven. They 'sleep' there, but they are allowed to cry out at times. (Dec. 7, 2023, " Alternative To Rapture", post #42)

Keraz said: The dead people from Adam to now, ALL 'sleep' in the grave, they know nothing until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment. Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 20:11-15 ( March 15, 2023, "The 7th Trumpet", #259)

Keraz said: Sheer fantasy! How can any human go to heaven or hell; before Judgment?
The Bible prophesies are plain; only after the Millennium, does God sit and Judge all mankind. Revelation 20:11-15 (July 4, 2022, "The Pre-Trib Rapture", #1681)

You are clearly not Pre-Millennal and not an Amillennial. You are Post-Millennial, believe in soul sleep and Replacement Theology ( Israel of God view). This I noticed in past posts. We actually went at it a few times years ago and so we kind of avoid eachother because of our differences.

These are yet other eschatological views among the long list. Imagine though if you are wrong, all those articles on Eschatology that you've written, and steered people away from the hope that the have. How shameful that moment will be. You are an iconoclast. I could shred all your views very easily, but hey, you are entitled, you're an old coot set in your ways ... no need. Keep your views, you've had them for a long time - go to sleep with them!

Not only that he basically calls the bible a joke.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured), I agree the number of Christians still alive when Christ comes shall be few. Probably why Christ rhetorically asks if He would find faith on the earth. But it won't be only Christians who are still alive on the earth, because they shall be caught up together with the resurrected physically dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. I agree it shall be post tribulation. My question is how can the number of faithful saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air be few in number? Don't you believe the full/complete body of Christ that shall be an innumerable multitude, will be physically changed immortal & incorruptible and caught up to meet the Lord together as ONE complete body of Christ?

rev 14;14 has a gathering of Jews right after firstfruit Jews are gathered. both of those are DURING THE TRIB. So your doctrine has the dead in Christ raised AFTER that mid trib gathering.
Impossible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

A small rapture?
I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me!

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antichristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

The problem is when people omit the pretrib rapture verses and form a belief on a doctrine based on omissions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I too read Hal Lindsey's LGPE in the 70's after my mom read it. So, since then up until about 10 years ago, I was also believing it, against my better judgement and told many unbelievers about it. I told them Christians would be whisked away from any harm the GT will bring. Just think of the implications this could bring on unbelievers of Christian, pre-trib families and all who would listen, if it is not true. If this (and I now fully believe in POST) pre-trib has been put in the heads of those thinking of becoming a believer and it does not happen, don't ya think many will scoff at the lie they were told, go get the mark so they can buy and sell...I can hear it in my mind now; "Where's your Jesus, look what we are going through, they lied to us"!! Not to mention all those who still believe in pre-trib will most likely not build their faith as strong as it will need to be, WHEN the time comes. God help us!

I keep hearing this from those that omit the pretrib rapture verses.
The idea that those believers who had not only oil in their lamps, but bright flames, were the ones waiting and believing in his immanent return, are depicted by the antipretribs as inferior believers that will get all depressed and defeated when their escapeism doctrine fails.
It would seem that you are telling on yourself in a few ways.
It is flat out bizarre that i keep hearing "the ones that are ready spiritually and expecting their groom to gather them, are extremely inferior to the ones that scoff at those with the bright burning lamps." (in reality, he only gathers the ready ones watching and waiting)
So, in their wisdom they tell us to quit being weak, and stop waiting and being ready for Jesus. They tell us to instead be wise and wait for the fake Christ.. the antichrist

Luke 12:45
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

2 peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Am i biblical in preparing to leave as the 10 virgins did and as commanded in the above verses.? Yep!
Or should I take your wise advice and prepare to stay.?
BTW, where is it in the bible where anyone is commended to prepare for the devil and his takeover?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: small rapture?

More Speculation? I thought God Only "Knows the heart" and how many
He Will "Gather, Catching us Up Into the air" eh?

Not to mention all those who still believe in pre-trib will most likely not build their faith as strong as it will need to be

Precious friend, my 'faith' is just fine - no worries. The Eternal Life He Gave me Has Been Safely
"In His Hands" since the first Precious day I met and trusted Him! I simply believe All Of His
Passages that I prayerfully and Carefully studied for: God's Great GRACE Departure!

That is something I struggle with. Explaining that to someone that believes in Pre-TB and doesn’t personally know you, most times it’ll fall on deaf ears. It’s the ones we know we can talk to. I don’t want my brothers/sisters in Christ to be deceived.

Precious friend, appreciate your concern about my being deceived, and am always ready to
listen to humble and kind discussions about God's Important Doctrine! But not so much
with judgmental name-calling critics, eh?

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In The
Lord Jesus Christ and In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided.

Amen.

 

[Reddsta]

A small rapture?​

Well I have read the entire forum here entitled “A small rapture?”…and there were some interesting thoughts put out there…poor Keras he gets the same thing he got on this forum…that he often gets on other forums and websites…

In the context of how the end of the age plays out…tribulation, great tribulation and any of the “rapture scenarios” and the rest of it…as dissected here by the participants of the forum…seems “out of context” in my opinion. Randy your OP and subsequent posts all seem to be a diligent attempt at understanding the truth about the subject matter…I do appreciate that…and you do stay with your context.

What do I mean “out of context”…the context for the end of the age, this iteration of the created heavens and the earth…must be observed within the stated parameters of the “Creator…Father…God” for putting creation in place to begin with…yeh back in Genesis.
5 “days” to establish creation…for what? Well…for what was created on the 6th day of course…man…Adam…”the son of God” as was traced back in Luke 3.

I know some are thinking…”back to Genesis?” Yeh…it is imperative…if you want revelation from the Holy Spirit that will definitively answer some of the questions and topics brought forth here and light on things associated to these topics that have not been seen. Often times I can see that people…Christians…seem to forget that even “before” God the Father created the heavens and the earth…He knew the end of that creation and all that would transpire in between Genesis and Revelation.

When man attempts to decipher, unravel, deconstruct the book of Revelation and does so void the understanding that Revelation is a book of culminations…that which the Spirit of God knew before it came to be…but chose to reveal in His own timing…he will always see things “out of context.”

I am endeavoring to put before my readers here…the idea that the book of Revelation is the summation of the 65 books preceding it…and its interpretations are found in the collection of those books themselves. All the prophetic end of time symbols, scenarios, types and shadows from Genesis through Jude have their interpretive culminations in the book of Revelation.

For those who can “see or hear and understand” what I am suggesting here…Revelation is the account of the completed fulfillment of the original intention of God as spoken in Genesis 1:26…which I submit to you is the purpose for God’s creation to begin with…on the sixth day…”a man in the image and likeness of God.” 5 days to establish and over abundant creation for His son…in which the son was given rule of the earth.

Clearly Adam was not the ultimate fulfillment of that man…God knew that…He saw beyond Adam to the Lord Yahshua…now that was a man in the image and likeness of God. If He was the fulfillment of the “man” of original intent…why would creation continue to exist? Because He…the Lord Yahshua Christ was not the completed desire of the Father of creation…He was the “pattern Son”…the “Head”…of what? His Body which was prepared for Him…He was to bring many sons into the glory of God.

When the original intention of God the Father is complete…the purpose for which creation was established…to support the emergence of the son of God…a man in the image and likeness of God Himself…a Body fit for a glorious Head… a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ…the one who grows up in all aspects into Him who is the head…even Christ…this creation both heavens and earth will be done away with.

I understand that this may seem like anything but Truth to the multitude…that’s fine scripture itself warns of such. There are things in scripture that have their antecedents brought to fullness in the final letter of the scriptures. The book of Revelation is the final accounting of that which has happened before in scripture…sometimes a number of times before.

It is in that context that the book of Revelation and its meanings shine forth. I assure you that the specifics of how this iteration of God’s creation plays out…are following His plans without fail…so we really needn’t be divided on the issue…that only shows that we are not hearing the Lord Yahshua Christ…the Holy Spirit of Truth is taking what is the Lord’s and disclosing it to those that are His…as you read this.

Once you “see/hear” this…almost all of the discussion and argument on this forum will prove to be largely “out of context”…though it would seem that Randy has had glimpses of something greater than the reasoning of man on the subject. I encourage you Randy to continue to pursue as you do.

If one cannot see that the “man in the image and likeness of God” also known as the “son of God” for which creation was put in place by God the Father and for God the Father…is known as “Christ…Head and Body” as one new man…who will fully arise to fulfill the testimony of God in Christ…in creation on earth…to end this age…man will continue to be content arguing about vain...out of context speculations...which is really of no benefit.

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The rich man and Lazarus destroy your beliefs.

He'll claim that is a parable, which it is not.
Why would Jesus describe two locations _ that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. He never used real people, like Abraham, in His parables.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz said: The souls of the martyrs killed for their faith, ever since Stephen; are kept under the Altar in heaven. They 'sleep' there, but they are allowed to cry out at times. (Dec. 7, 2023, " Alternative To Rapture", post #42)

Lol, where did you get that?

Revelation 6:9-11 clearly states it.
Keeping the souls of those who kept their faith unto death in heaven, seems the right thing for God to do.

You are clearly not Pre-Millennial and not an Amillennial. You are Post-Millennial, believe in soul sleep and Replacement Theology

I am none of those.
I believe in what the Bible Prophets have told us. Having carefully read and studied ALL of the Bible, God's Plan is clear to me.

It is a shame that you and so many others have gone down rabbit trails and have been fooled by false theories. I may be a bit harsh about those who do believe in ideas that are not Biblical, but I do it to shock them in the hope they will renounce such fables, like the rapture.