A small rapture?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,734
2,417
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A small rapture?
I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me! ;)

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antichristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,734
2,417
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You know, there's some guy out there teaching that the Lord is going to have a separate rapture for the little people, you know the midgets.

But, he's one of the little people himself View attachment 40311
Well, that guy is not me! ;) lol!

So what do you think of what I *really said? Any thoughts that are more serious? Maybe give me some "Big Boy" thoughts? ;)
 

No Pre-TB

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2022
868
350
63
48
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A small rapture?
I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me! ;)

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antichristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”
There is enough scripture that refutes Pre-TB if you know where to look. I think some in Pre-TB believe it because their church family believes it. And that family are true believers, full of love and grace. It’s hard to look a them and say they got it all wrong. They are good people.

My current church is studying end times and they are pre-TB. I enjoy throwing out questions while watching every eye look at me because they all know me and my family and I’m giving them verses refuting what they are saying. If I’m wrong show me! But no one has with scripture. Not yet. We should really post typical pre-TB questions and respond to the errors…
 
  • Love
Reactions: Nancy

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,415
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.
That is not what 2 Thessalonians even says.

There is actually no mention of an antichrist either. There is no mention of a Second Coming, nor a rapture for that matter. The phrase used is day of Christ. The day will not happen until several things happen first.

The day of Christ, the Millennium is post trib. The AoD is post trib. The Great Tribulation is post great tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble is post the Second Coming. Satan's empire is post the 7th Trumpet declaring Jesus as the 7th King of all nations. I doubt the UN is going to declare Jesus President though.

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

This only happens after the Second Coming, after the final harvest, and only if Satan is the 8th King after Jesus becomes the 7th King at the 7th Trumpet.

Paul is talking about Armageddon in Revelation 19. A lot of stuff has to happen prior to the Day of Christ.

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Amil teach that day is at hand and has been since the Cross. The day of Christ, Paul is referring to is the Day of the Lord Peter is referring to. We call this period the Second Coming, but in reality it is the first and future coming to Paul. The first coming was in the past, and Paul was talking about a coming that many thought they had already missed.

They were not to be deceived by any one that the day of Christ, the day of the Lord had already started. So Paul was not saying theses things about the actual coming that we call the Second Coming, but Paul was talking about the day of Christ.

The previous chapter deals with the Revelation or revealing of Jesus from heaven with His angels. It would seem that Scripture places the Second Coming pre-trib as many put it. Because the rapture does not happen in a vacuum all on it's own. The rapture happens in conjunction with the heavens dissolving, and all the works on earth burned up. So nothing is left behind at all, if all planes, autos, houses, and clothes are all burned up. The rapture would be the escape from the baptism of fire. Not an escape from tribulation. The point being, that the church is no longer necessary on earth, since Jesus and His angels are now gathering the final harvest. If trillions of angels are on the earth, what is the point of billions of redeemed still hanging out? We don't go around physically killing people now, why would we do so after Jesus is on the earth, when that is what the angels will be doing.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,734
2,417
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is not what 2 Thessalonians even says.
As I said, in the course of memorizing the whole letter, that's the conclusion I came to. Paul was telling the church that Jesus could *not* have come back yet because the Antichrist has to appear 1st, and he will be destroyed at Christ's Coming *before* the Church can be Raptured.
There is actually no mention of an antichrist either. There is no mention of a Second Coming, nor a rapture for that matter. The phrase used is day of Christ. The day will not happen until several things happen first.
I don't see that at all. 1 and 2 Thes is all about the 2nd Coming. And 2 Thes specifically mentions the Man of Sin, who is the Antichrist.

You must have a whole different unconventional view of things? And I'm really not interested in weird, out of the mainstream interpretations. Sorry, but it's too convoluted to me, and I have to work too hard to apply "Timothy-speak" to understand. ;)

But enjoy your own view of things. To avoid overly-individualized interpretations of biblical prophecy I would suggest you look at all of the traditional interpretations 1st. Otherwise, you may be creating a "beast with many heads." ;)
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,446
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I said, in the course of memorizing the whole letter, that's the conclusion I came to. Paul was telling the church that Jesus could *not* have come back yet because the Antichrist has to appear 1st, and he will be destroyed at Christ's Coming *before* the Church can be Raptured.

The rapture cannot happen until the son of perdition (anti-christ) is revealed... but, the ant-christ does not have to be destroyed before the church can be taken out of the world.

The rapture is going to end up being mid-trib since the Lord is not going to allow His true and faithful to be slaughted by the ant-christ after the first 3 years when he becomes violent and starts killing all dissidents.... the Body of Christ is not appointed unto wrath... God's wrath, or the devil's wrath.

After the rapture there will be lots of backsliders re-dedicating their lives to the Lord as well as new converts... this are the tribulation saints that satan will wage war against, not God's true and faith that get taken out at the rapture.

2 Thess simply says the gathering of ourselves unto the Lord (rapture) cannot happen until there is a falling away and the nutjob be revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


*The phrase ”Gathering together”

Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,734
2,417
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The rapture cannot happen until the son of perdition (anti-christ) is revealed... but, the ant-christ does not have to be destroyed before the church can be taken out of the world.
I'll tell you why I *think* that Antichrist must be *destroyed* before the Rapture of the Church takes place. The same Scripture passage that says Antichrist must be revealed 1st also indicates he must be destroyed 1st. The logic is as follows...

The day of Christ's Coming cannot take place now because he will Come after the Antichrist is revealed *to destroy him." Paul's argument is that, I assume in accordance with Dan 7, the Antichrist must 1st reign 3.5 years before the Messiah can come with the clouds of heaven and establish his Kingdom on earth.

So the establishment of the Kingdom is immediately preceded by the Rapture of the Church at the descent of the Son of Man from the clouds of heaven. And that takes place, ie the establishment of God's Kingdom, after 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule. The passage reads like this, with my added notes...

2 Thes 2.Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction...
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.


As you can see, the destruction of the Antichrist is linked to Christ's Coming for his Church. And in Daniel the Coming of the Son of Man is linked to the establishment of God's Kingdom, which requires the Rapture of the Church.

Simply put, Christ comes, the Son of Man from the clouds, to Rapture the Church and to establish his Kingdom only after Antichrist is revealed and is destroyed at that very Coming.
The rapture is going to end up being mid-trib since the Lord is not going to allow His true and faithful to be slaughted by the ant-christ after the first 3 years when he becomes violent and starts killing all dissidents.... the Body of Christ is not appointed unto wrath... God's wrath, or the devil's wrath.
Well, I don't get too upset with Pre-Wrathers because I view them as cousins to my own Postrib position. ;) The point of the book of Revelation is that the Church is to be warned that we must testify during difficult times, including in the time of Antichrist.

And this is nothing new. As the Apostle John wrote, "As you've heard that Antichrist is coming, so already there have been many antichrists.

In other words, it's part of the character of the present age. And we've been called to have courage and to be faithful even when our enemies seem like giants.
After the rapture there will be lots of backsliders re-dedicating their lives to the Lord as well as new converts... this are the tribulation saints that satan will wage war against, not God's true and faith that get taken out at the rapture.

2 Thess simply says the gathering of ourselves unto the Lord (rapture) cannot happen until there is a falling away and the nutjob be revealed
Exactly, I think as we get closer to the end of the age, the Great Apostasy will become clearer to those of us who live for Christ. Christian Civilization is collapsing before our eyes. And yet some will be convicted and turn back to the Gospel for Salvation.
Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.
Really good point. Some audaciously claim that "apostasia" means to "depart in a Rapture." Doesn't make sense to me either! To me, the Postrib Theology is abundantly clear. And my eyes aren't lying! ;)
 
Last edited:

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,816
25,468
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is enough scripture that refutes Pre-TB if you know where to look. I think some in Pre-TB believe it because their church family believes it. And that family are true believers, full of love and grace. It’s hard to look a them and say they got it all wrong. They are good people.

My current church is studying end times and they are pre-TB. I enjoy throwing out questions while watching every eye look at me because they all know me and my family and I’m giving them verses refuting what they are saying. If I’m wrong show me! But no one has with scripture. Not yet. We should really post typical pre-TB questions and respond to the errors…
I too read Hal Lindsey's LGPE in the 70's after my mom read it. So, since then up until about 10 years ago, I was also believing it, against my better judgement and told many unbelievers about it. I told them Christians would be whisked away from any harm the GT will bring. Just think of the implications this could bring on unbelievers of Christian, pre-trib families and all who would listen, if it is not true. If this (and I now fully believe in POST) pre-trib has been put in the heads of those thinking of becoming a believer and it does not happen, don't ya think many will scoff at the lie they were told, go get the mark so they can buy and sell...I can hear it in my mind now; "Where's your Jesus, look what we are going through, they lied to us"!! Not to mention all those who still believe in pre-trib will most likely not build their faith as strong as it will need to be, WHEN the time comes. God help us!
 

No Pre-TB

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2022
868
350
63
48
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I too read Hal Lindsey's LGPE in the 70's after my mom read it. So, since then up until about 10 years ago, I was also believing it, against my better judgement and told many unbelievers about it. I told them Christians would be whisked away from any harm the GT will bring. Just think of the implications this could bring on unbelievers of Christian, pre-trib families and all who would listen, if it is not true. If this (and I now fully believe in POST) pre-trib has been put in the heads of those thinking of becoming a believer and it does not happen, don't ya think many will scoff at the lie they were told, go get the mark so they can buy and sell...I can hear it in my mind now; "Where's your Jesus, look what we are going through, they lied to us"!! Not to mention all those who still believe in pre-trib will most likely not build their faith as strong as it will need to be, WHEN the time comes. God help us!
Nancy,

That is something I struggle with. Explaining that to someone that believes in Pre-TB and doesn’t personally know you, most times it’ll fall on deaf ears. It’s the ones we know we can talk to. I don’t want my brothers/sisters in Christ to be deceived. There are some I personally know that I’d count one of the 144k but only God knows. With them, the only issue is their eschatology. I had raised some issues to some friends and I am still waiting on a response.
Ex.
1: 2 Thess 2 - if the coming and gathering is a resurrection or rapture issue
2: When does wrath begin if we are the elders and a rapture must precede them in Rev 4. It’s easily proved by 4 points when God begins his judgment and 3 of them are found after opening the 6th seal. The other is found before the first trumpet is blown. If his judgment is applied months to years later (think of seal 1-5) with wars, famines, disease etc.. how can a rapture precede years before wrath and not on the same day?

I should really write up an argument then just rambling on.
 

pompadour

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oct 5, 2011
839
1,239
93
minnesota USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Thes 2: talks about the restrainer. Who is the restrainer that holds back the Antichrist ? ( My logic ) The Holy Spirit!.
The restrainer (Spirit filled believers, the Church ) must be removed BEFORE the Antichrist will be reviled. ( mid-tribe ) As I remember from Daniel. the first 3 1/2 yrs are good the next 3 1/2 yrs he turns bad. ( that would be the time for the restrainer to be removed ) Born-again Christians are filed with the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is removed will the Christians go with Him ? ( Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you )

1 Thes 4:17 talks about being caught UP in the air to meet the Lord. The second coming Jesus STANDS on the Mount of olives ( not in the air ) Then there is the parable of the 10 virgins 5 were taken and 5 were left. Taken where ? in the air ?
That's MY logic.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antichristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

When we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured), I agree the number of Christians still alive when Christ comes shall be few. Probably why Christ rhetorically asks if He would find faith on the earth. But it won't be only Christians who are still alive on the earth, because they shall be caught up together with the resurrected physically dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. I agree it shall be post tribulation. My question is how can the number of faithful saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air be few in number? Don't you believe the full/complete body of Christ that shall be an innumerable multitude, will be physically changed immortal & incorruptible and caught up to meet the Lord together as ONE complete body of Christ?
 

No Pre-TB

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2022
868
350
63
48
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Thes 2: talks about the restrainer. Who is the restrainer that holds back the Antichrist ? ( My logic ) The Holy Spirit!.
The restrainer (Spirit filled believers, the Church ) must be removed BEFORE the Antichrist will be reviled. ( mid-tribe ) As I remember from Daniel. the first 3 1/2 yrs are good the next 3 1/2 yrs he turns bad. ( that would be the time for the restrainer to be removed ) Born-again Christians are filed with the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is removed will the Christians go with Him ? ( Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you )

1 Thes 4:17 talks about being caught UP in the air to meet the Lord. The second coming Jesus STANDS on the Mount of olives ( not in the air ) Then there is the parable of the 10 virgins 5 were taken and 5 were left. Taken where ? in the air ?
That's MY logic.
Did you read 2 Thess 2? Paul tells you what the restrainer is. And now you know what restrains till he is removed. The HS is never removed. It’s the down payment till the purchased possession. Our gathering together unto Christ cannot happen till there is a falling away first and the man of sin revealed. Therefore, the church will see both of these since our gathering comes after them per Paul. That also makes them 2 prerequisites which is completely opposite of immanency.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,147
927
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Our gathering together unto Christ cannot happen till there is a falling away first and the man of sin revealed. Therefore, the church will see both of these since our gathering comes after them per Paul.
That gathering will happen when Jesus Returns; Matthew 24:30-31
The multitude of living Christians, are those who will have been kept in the place of safety, on earth for the 1260 days of world Satanic control. Revelation 12:14 Transported to Jerusalem.
The ONLY dead Christians who will be resurrected at the Return, are the Martyrs killed during that time. Revelation 20:4 Some of the people described in Revelation 12:17
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,734
2,417
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured), I agree the number of Christians still alive when Christ comes shall be few. Probably why Christ rhetorically asks if He would find faith on the earth. But it won't be only Christians who are still alive on the earth, because they shall be caught up together with the resurrected physically dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. I agree it shall be post tribulation. My question is how can the number of faithful saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air be few in number? Don't you believe the full/complete body of Christ that shall be an innumerable multitude, will be physically changed immortal & incorruptible and caught up to meet the Lord together as ONE complete body of Christ?
Yes, completely agree with you. I was just referring to the Pretrib notion of Christians "disappearing" all over the earth, leaving airplanes unpiloted, cars undriven, and trains unguided, etc.

If we really believe Christ is coming to deliver those "remaining until his Coming," then there surely will be Christians in these precarious positions. I'm just trying to explain how God could remove these Christians without endangering the safety of those left behind.

It's pure speculation. We only have Enoch and Elijah as examples of a true "Rapture." If it is to be a group of people across the earth, it must be at a time of extreme stress, when people will not be flying about, driving about, or travelling places. It will most likely be a tremendous nuclear war, with people largely hiding from the fallout. And the number of true reborn Christians will be relatively few, even if the number of nominal Christians remains pretty high.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,415
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I too read Hal Lindsey's LGPE in the 70's after my mom read it. So, since then up until about 10 years ago, I was also believing it, against my better judgement and told many unbelievers about it. I told them Christians would be whisked away from any harm the GT will bring. Just think of the implications this could bring on unbelievers of Christian, pre-trib families and all who would listen, if it is not true. If this (and I now fully believe in POST) pre-trib has been put in the heads of those thinking of becoming a believer and it does not happen, don't ya think many will scoff at the lie they were told, go get the mark so they can buy and sell...I can hear it in my mind now; "Where's your Jesus, look what we are going through, they lied to us"!! Not to mention all those who still believe in pre-trib will most likely not build their faith as strong as it will need to be, WHEN the time comes. God help us!
If the Second Coming does not happen when Scripture states, God has lied to all of us.

Forget believers lying to non believers.

I guess those who get left behind after being lied to by post tribbers will be upset and lost forever. Those lied to by pre-tribbers won't be upset, but still just as lost.

Most mock God's Word anyways.

Can some one point out in these verses where people are mocking Christians and running to get the mark: Revelation 6:12-17?

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal.... every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

How much faith does it take to bow in reverence to God Almighty sitting on the throne in sight of the entire earth? Do you think those on God's side, have anything to fear when the rest of the world actually sees God for the first time?

Or another example of faith in the two thieves hanging with Jesus. Did the thief who asked to be allowed into the kingdom have enough faith to finish dying in anguish on the Cross? I am pretty sure that when the 6th Seal is opened you will either be ready or you won't be ready. There won't be any changing one's mind for a little season. Many who were not prepared, will be watching people chosen by Jesus and given eternal life or cast into the LOF, wondering when it will be their turn, and then the judgment will be over and they will still be waiting. Remember that you all are post everything, still waiting for your faith to take effect, no?

Why do so many think the Second Coming is a planned event after much trouble and Satan put in charge? The Second Coming is the surprise event before all that trouble starts. If not, the Second Coming is not the surprise Scripture makes it out to be. You all must know more than even Jesus did, who claimed not to know when it will happen.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,147
927
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
If not, the Second Coming is not the surprise Scripture makes it out to be. You all must know more than even Jesus did, who claimed not to know when it will happen.
Jesus and all the Prophesies that tell us of an unexpected Day of disaster, was not referring to the glorious Return, but to the near future Sixth Seal Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb, surprising and shocking everyone.
The Return will be known, as Jesus will come exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated; 2 Thess 2:4, Rev 13:5
 
  • Like
Reactions: pompadour and Nancy

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, completely agree with you. I was just referring to the Pretrib notion of Christians "disappearing" all over the earth, leaving airplanes unpiloted, cars undriven, and trains unguided, etc.

If we really believe Christ is coming to deliver those "remaining until his Coming," then there surely will be Christians in these precarious positions. I'm just trying to explain how God could remove these Christians without endangering the safety of those left behind.

It's pure speculation. We only have Enoch and Elijah as examples of a true "Rapture." If it is to be a group of people across the earth, it must be at a time of extreme stress, when people will not be flying about, driving about, or travelling places. It will most likely be a tremendous nuclear war, with people largely hiding from the fallout. And the number of true reborn Christians will be relatively few, even if the number of nominal Christians remains pretty high.

Hal Lindsey along with the 'Left Behind' series are fictional fantasies! When the last trumpet begins to sound that Christ has come again, I don't believe the raptured saints, or God will be worrying about those who are left behind on this earth. Because all of them are destined to the wrath of God by fire that shall come down from God out of heaven to burn up this earth and every living thing still left upon it. On that day every human being ever to have been born from Adam shall either be caught up or left behind to be caught on fire. According to the Bible here is a depiction of what those left behind will be doing on that day when the wrath of God shall come. (Rev 6:15-17) At the same time the great innumerable multitude of the redeemed shall be changed and caught up to meet with the Lord in the air until the wrath of God by fire upon all that is left on the earth is finished.

Revelation 6:15-17 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
1,360
274
83
68
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When will you guys explore the impossibility of a postrib/wrath rapture?
That is a bible fact.
Rev14:14 is a good start.
Postrib/ wrath DEPENDS on only one gathering.
Which is so easy to disprove it is like shooting ducks in a barrel.