A small rapture?

[Keraz]

He'll claim that is a parable, which it is not.
Why would Jesus describe two locations _ that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. He never used real people, like Abraham, in His parables.

The parable, the homily that Jesus gave in Luke 16:19-31, is just that. It teaches us that this life is the only chance we have to get right with God.
Thinking it is a real situation, is wrong and is only considered to be real by those with a false agenda.
The Bible does not say that Abraham went to heaven when he died.

 

[Keraz]

These are yet other eschatological views among the long list. Imagine though if you are wrong, all those articles on Eschatology that you've written, and steered people away from the hope that the have. How shameful that moment will be. You are an iconoclast. I could shred all your views very easily, but hey, you are entitled, you're an old coot set in your ways ... no need. Keep your views, you've had them for a long time - go to sleep with them!

I read this to my wife. We both laughed.
You make the mistake of applying the beliefs I present to me personally. What I write and post about, is what the Bible Prophets actually told us. And we do have modern knowledge and hindsight to help our understanding.

 

[Keraz]

Well I have read the entire forum here entitled “A small rapture?”…and there were some interesting thoughts put out there…poor Keras he gets the same thing he got on this forum…that he often gets on other forums and websites…

I mostly agree with your post #38
Revelation is a precis' of all the Bible Prophesies and it gives us the correct sequence of the end time events.
What amazes me, is how people feel free to shuffle it and to deny some plainly stated verses. Very unwise!

As for my feelings, I take no notice of abuse and rejection, that is what the ancient Prophets got and as I promote them, I expect the same treatment. Luckily for me, I live too far away for anything physical to happen to me, as has been threatened.

Just the fact that I have promoted the truths of the Prophetic Word, is enough for the Lord to reward me.
I hope to stand before God in Judgment with a pure hands. and clean heart.

 

[Reddsta]

Your slippeŕy premise that Jesus is not God with your several implications, is out of whack. That you can read the entire Bible and think that Jesus was just a man like Adam, although elevated to Lord and son of God, painstakingly misses the mark and vast understanding of who He is, the Creator. (JOHN 1:1-14; Col. 1:16-17).

Bruh...nothing I said was even close to what you accuse me of...perhaps you weren't paying attention to what you were reading Bruno. Show me just one of these "several implications" that are out of whack...I am open.

Revelation is the culmination of all history, it's the end of the story. One Pastor explained it to be the unveiling of CHRIST, who is the ALPHA AND OMEGA, FULLY GOD WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, BECAME A MAN AND DWELT AMONG US.
That is the context you are missing.

Again if you actually read what I wrote...you will see that what "one pastor" explained to you...is what I wrote...you likely have never heard it explained as I did...because I went beyond His coming and dwelling among us...beyond His death on the cross...beyond His resurrection...beyond the outpouring of His Holy Spirit...beyond the last 2000 years of the Lord Yahshua ruling in His kingdom in heaven and on earth...right up to today and then into the future.

How did I miss that context...Bruno?

Redd..

 

[Augustin56]

Yeah, I knew a guy once, who had a small rapture in his appendix. They ended taking it out. (LOL)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well I have read the entire forum here entitled “A small rapture?”…and there were some interesting thoughts put out there…poor Keras he gets the same thing he got on this forum…that he often gets on other forums and websites…

Keraz harps on the same thing--the 6th Seal of Revelation, supposedly an enormous solar flare, or emission. As well, he continues to express antagonism towards any sense of a Rapture to Heaven. Not much more I can say to him...

In the context of how the end of the age plays out…tribulation, great tribulation and any of the “rapture scenarios” and the rest of it…as dissected here by the participants of the forum…seems “out of context” in my opinion. Randy your OP and subsequent posts all seem to be a diligent attempt at understanding the truth about the subject matter…I do appreciate that…and you do stay with your context.

I appreciate that. I'm always willing to "wander," however, if a subject comes up that someone wants to deal with that may be connected, if only in a more distant way.

For those who can “see or hear and understand” what I am suggesting here…Revelation is the account of the completed fulfillment of the original intention of God as spoken in Genesis 1:26…which I submit to you is the purpose for God’s creation to begin with…on the sixth day…”a man in the image and likeness of God.” 5 days to establish and over abundant creation for His son…in which the son was given rule of the earth.

I agree. God seems to have anticipated the "Scriptures" as a set, and Revelation is the end of the story, Genesis being the beginning. The way I express it is that God is all about being true to His Word. So what He said in the beginning must somehow resolve the problems that Man has created since.

When the original intention of God the Father is complete…the purpose for which creation was established…to support the emergence of the son of God…a man in the image and likeness of God Himself…a Body fit for a glorious Head… a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ…the one who grows up in all aspects into Him who is the head…even Christ…this creation both heavens and earth will be done away with.

I don't feel that the universe is ever going away--just the *old* universe, whatever that means. It will be a major renovation of some sort.

Once you “see/hear” this…almost all of the discussion and argument on this forum will prove to be largely “out of context”…though it would seem that Randy has had glimpses of something greater than the reasoning of man on the subject. I encourage you Randy to continue to pursue as you do.

My prayer is that we *all* come to see the same truth, though we each are given our own individual gifts. There will be no competition--just complementary pursuits.

I was telling my wife a couple hours ago, as we looked out at God's beautiful creation--"It seems that God was utterly unselfish in telling us from the start to keep the garden." He was thinking of our joy, and not just about His own control over us.

Of course, God's great joy is in having us as His sons and daughters. He is thrilled when we love Him without having to be prompted, when we choose to be like Him.

If one cannot see that the “man in the image and likeness of God” also known as the “son of God” for which creation was put in place by God the Father and for God the Father…is known as “Christ…Head and Body” as one new man…who will fully arise to fulfill the testimony of God in Christ…in creation on earth…to end this age…man will continue to be content arguing about vain...out of context speculations...which is really of no benefit.

Redd...

Don't worry, brother. If you do your part you will have your reward. If some lose some of their reward that is on them. We should just hope for the best.... Thanks.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yeah, I knew a guy once, who had a small rapture in his appendix. They ended taking it out. (LOL)

Sounds more like a "rupture?"

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem is when people omit the pretrib rapture verses and form a belief on a doctrine based on omissions.

There are no Pretrib Rapture verses that are *explicit and theological" in nature. Reading a theology into symbolism can be done in an attempt to prove Pretribism. But it doesn't work for me, in particular because we do have explicit theological statements from Paul proving Postribism in 2 Thes 2. Paraphrased, "Christ cannot come of his Church unless Antichrist appears 1st. Then Christ will come to destroy him. That is when Christ will come for his Church."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I will now address this, as well. If the visions are not chronologically sequenced, then the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11 can display the end of the age. The fact more visions followed, therefore, do not have to indicate more time for other events to take place after the 7th Trumpet.

Personally, I view the Scroll vision as one major vision, beginning with John's being caught up to heaven in ch. 4 to the end of ch. 11, when the 7th Trumpet is blown. After that, John sees a series of visions that clarify the period of the Antichrist's Reign, which I believe is 3.5 years. They take us all the way to to the end of the book. In effect, the book sort of looks like 2 large visions, each vision containing a number of internal smaller visions.

So Christ's Coming is depicted, I think, a number of times in different ways in the book of Revelation. He appears to come in some of the smaller, internal visions, such as in the 6th Seal. He also appears to come in the 7th Trumpet, for example.

In the 2nd half of the book Christ's Coming is displayed in numerous ways, with the harvest angels, with the Son of Man on a cloud, in his Coming with an Army, etc. So there is no simple 2nd Coming at the end of the book. There are many depictions of the same event, describing different matters.

I look at this a little differently. But I find it hard to determine what events in the Revelation are intended to be symbolic of future events strung together non-sequentially and what are actual events literally taking place as given?

Rev 6.15 Then the kings of the earth...hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"...
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

So will 4 angels really stand at the 4 corners of the earth *after* the kings of the earth hide from the coming of the Lamb? Or is that event simply the order of events in which John saw these various visions in a non-sequential way?

The Bible uses a very flexible form of prophetic language at times. When seeing visions you might say, "I saw that, then I saw that, then I saw that," and would not at all mean that in the future the fulfillment of each vision will take place sequentially. They are just different visions seen one after the other.

Two more cents ... Another interesting event that you brought up is when no wind blows on the earth anywhere. Imagine that. The meteorologists will freak out. We will certainly know somethings is going to happen. Of course a worldwide earthquake is another major event. There is one described in two places that are likely the same one, just two different vantage points. Check them out.
Rev.16:18 & Rev. 6:12-14

 

[Keraz]

God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2
Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.

The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31

These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.

What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!
For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!

There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]

 

[Randy Kluth]

Two more cents ... Another interesting event that you brought up is when no wind blows on the earth anywhere. Imagine that. The meteorologists will freak out. We will certainly know somethings is going to happen. Of course a worldwide earthquake is another major event. There is one described in two places that are likely the same one, just two different vantage points. Check them out.
Rev.16:18 & Rev. 6:12-14

The problem Ron is in understanding how the language is to be understood? An earthquake can be depicted as world-wide even though it is strictly local.

For example, I could say that an enormous earthquake struck the earth, and every tree swayed, and all the roads buckled. Would I mean that all roads on earth buckled, or that every tree on earth swayed? No. This is just speaking in universal terms in a particular context that is strictly local.

Or I could say that my house grew quiet, and nothing stirred. Do I mean that there was no movement at all in my house? No. I'm just making a general statement as a figure of speech. It was *very quiet.*

So I don't know what is symbolic, what is a figure of speech, or what is the particular context for these statements? I guess I'm back at the start trying to understand apocalyptic language? But thanks, I'll keep trying.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2
Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.

The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31

These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.

What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!
For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!

There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]

False view that suffers from Replacement theology.

The ten (Islamic) nations are now forming and at least five are attacking Israel. It is Iran's proxy war that includes many terrorist groups within these countries: Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, AlQaida, ISIS, AL Shabab, etc., etc. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen are currently involved. The war will escalate to likely include Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan. Russia has bases in Syria and has supported Iran's nuclearbprogramnfor decades. Many of these countries have already warned against and hate Israel _ FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
It seems many Americans join in this hatred.
This prophecy is NOW unfolding:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Zech. 12:2-3
The entire UN is stumbling over this rock and her war as we speak and are growing against Israel.
Biden just enabled Iran releasing billions to fund their war. They likely already have nukes.
Islam is the Beast with seven heads and ten horns.
Daniel 70th week was already fulfilled. That was a prophecy about Christ's 1st coming. You are waiting for some Peace Treaty and a Temple to be built -- I don't think so, and am not an adherent to the Gap theory either. Christ will build a Temple in the Millennial Kingdom.
The Bible stories have always centered around Jerusalem/ Israel. The Beast ( ruled by Satan), has manifested itself in the past world empires: Babylon, Egypt, Assyria, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman AND OTTOMAN (that formed in 1299 but defeated the Eastern Riman Empire in 1453 and ruled til 1921). The Ottoman (Islamic) empire, who suffered a deadly blow, now has come back to life. (7th horn suffers a deadly blow and becomes #8).
Well, that's my view and you could have another good laugh at that ... until you realize that it is real.
I'll definitely get back to you with updates ... don't have to ... but will make an extra effort just for you Bruce.

 

[Reddsta]

You emphasized that Jesus, the "son of God…a man in the image and likeness of God";
as if He was born like us, made in the image of God. He is God, not a created being, another man like Adam.

Ok…since you see it like that and I appreciate you saying so Bruno I will try to clarify my belief and what I said.

Yahshua…Jesus as you prefer…#1. Is the Son of God, #2. Was the son of man, #3. Is the image of the invisible God, #4. Is the firstborn of all creation, #5. By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, #6. He is the Head of the Body, #7. The fullness of the Father dwelt in Him, #8. He was the son that was born and the son that was given.

He was a man…like you and I, He was born of a woman…like you and I, He suffered in the flesh…like you and I for you and I, He is referred to as “the last Adam who became a life-giving spirit”…so we probably agree on those things…right? Yahshua Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

So brother Bruno…He is the Son of God…who was a man in the image and likeness of God and thus…the second of three iterations of the man in the image and likeness of God…who is a Spirit.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

You also emphasized "Creator ... Father ... God".

Yes I did…referring to the simple fact that the “Creator” had a specific picture for the purpose of the created realms of heaven and earth…before…actually bringing them into existence temporally. I suggested that the primary reason for His bringing forth creation…was to abundantly support His Son…a man created in the image and likeness of God...who is a Spirit.

Do not think I am dishonoring the Father, but they are equal, we are to honor them equally as well as the Holy Spirit.
You left Jesus out of the creative process.

I do not think that you are dishonoring the Father Bruno…no…Isaiah told us this…for a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

I see them all embodied in the Son that was given…the Lord Yahshua Christ.

So if I got you wrong, I will retract my post if you agree that Jesus is and always has been God, the CREATOR and equal to the Father.

It was a misunderstanding or a miscommunication and nothing more…no need on my part for you to retract your post…it can happen easily on these forums and I appreciate that you are willing to get this right…that means a lot brother Bruno…thank you.

There is no doubt in me anywhere…that our “Lord Yahshua Christ” is anything less than the eternal God and Father manifest in a Body upon the earth…as it is today…and will continue be revealed in its fullness in creation…on this earth as the Glory of God...bringing this age to the fulfillment of the original intention of the Creator.

A question brother Bruno...from an "eternal" perspective...if God knew the end of the matter of creation from before it even existed...does that mean it is already complete or fulfilled in the mind of God and therefore exists?

Redd...

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Keraz harps on the same thing--the 6th Seal of Revelation, supposedly an enormous solar flare, or emission. As well, he continues to express antagonism towards any sense of a Rapture to Heaven. Not much more I can say to him...

Well bro Keras is stout in his belief for sure...but somehow I sense a passion for the Lord Yahshua in him...I think he will obey His Father as his Father raises him up.

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ok…since you see it like that and I appreciate you saying so Bruno I will try to clarify my belief and what I said.

Yahshua…Jesus as you prefer…#1. Is the Son of God, #2. Was the son of man, #3. Is the image of the invisible God, #4. Is the firstborn of all creation, #5. By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, #6. He is the Head of the Body, #7. The fullness of the Father dwelt in Him, #8. He was the son that was born and the son that was given.

He was a man…like you and I, He was born of a woman…like you and I, He suffered in the flesh…like you and I for you and I, He is referred to as “the last Adam who became a life-giving spirit”…so we probably agree on those things…right? Yahshua Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

So brother Bruno…He is the Son of God…who was a man in the image and likeness of God and thus…the second of three iterations of the man in the image and likeness of God…who is a Spirit.

Redd...

Okay. Sorry, sometimes these Non-Trinitarians who don't see Jesus as God, but as a created being, like an angel, try to get clever and slippery with ther doctrine and infuse it into the conversation. I jumped the gun with you when I read " in the image of and like God", and without giving Him the full honor, glory and recognition that you just did. Certainly saying his humanity appeared in the image of and like God, does not remove or discount His deity. One of my faults is jumping conclusions.
Jesus did say that man would have a difficulty grasping this concept.
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. PHIL. 2:5-8

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A question brother Bruno...from an "eternal" perspective...if God knew the end of the matter of creation from before it even existed...does that mean it is already complete or fulfilled in the mind of God and therefore exists?

No. His plan _ in His mind _was complete before the world existed. He is in such control of the story that He guides it through to completion. But of course, this question is really above my grasp. It just seems logical to me.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer. 1:5

That doesn't mean Jeremiah existed yet, only in God's mind. His design, everything about Jeremiah, He had a blueprint for as an architect has before he builds anything.

 

[Reddsta]

I don't feel that the universe is ever going away--just the *old* universe, whatever that means. It will be a major renovation of some sort.

Let me offer you what may be an alternative perspective in regards to what I call “creation” and you refer to as the “universe” because essentially…it seems that they point to the same “created” reality…unless I have misunderstood you here Randy.

The alternative perspective I am referring to is in resistance to your idea that creation/universe is not going away.

Essentially we are to continuously come into a greater understanding of what the term “eternal” really means. I say this because in the end of Hebrews 5 and on into 6 we are instructed to be established in the “elementary teaching about the Christ” and “eternal judgment” is last one listed.

This being one of the elementary yet foundational…”principles of Christ”…that we must embrace by faith and live out in obedience…because…it is a part of our “spiritual maturity and growth” just as was written in that text…here referring to “eternal judgment.” I could go into these principals deeper at some point…but not now.

Suffice it here to say…that we are to grow spiritually to the place where “our judgments” are brought forth from the mind of God via the Holy Spirit. In 1Corinthians 2 Paul reveals to us…“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.” That is eternal judgment simply defined for you. Judgment that comes from the depths of God.

How important are the “elementary teachings about the Christ”…they are fundamental and yet I cannot recall ever being taught them in any of the church’s I have attended.

Few have put any real value upon them at all…in the Baptist church that I pastored…I attempted to bring forth the teaching about the “Elementary doctrines” and interestingly enough the elder staff said no go. So unfortunate…perhaps that is in view here? Clearly this plays directly into the perpetual spiritual immaturity in the church today…but I digress.

Eternal, eternity, eternal life are probably not understood for what they are…granted it is a difficult concept to understand and perhaps impossible to some…that all depends upon ones spiritual maturity…right? What I was once taught concerning the eternal…as a simple working definition…is the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. As such…can it be said…that which is eternal is outside of time?

Of course…no beginning no end…time on the other hand…both begins and ends. That is how God exists eternally…which is why He can know the end from before the beginning. All that begins…ends…simply because it is not eternal…it has been created…by Him. Thus its beginning…which by virtue of the nature of that which is created…has an end.
This really has to do with a deeper understanding of “who” the Holy Spirit actually is…He is greatly misunderstood…yet He is eternal…and living in my spirit today.

End Part 1

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

I don't feel that the universe is ever going away--just the *old* universe, whatever that means. It will be a major renovation of some sort.

Part 2

The eternal exists “outside” of creation…creation exists within eternity…realistically creation exists in Him, He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God. It is by this understanding that we can know that “nothing in eternity” is dependent upon “anything in creation.” Just think about that for a bit…

Now think Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” So here we have the creation of both the heavens and the earth…at their beginning…so they did not always exist and as such, have an end and thereby cannot be eternal. It was eternity “Himself” who…was before the beginning…who put forth creation within Himself…that seems fairly straightforward to me.

Now…the Lord Yahshua said…”those who believe in Him…have eternal life.” John the Baptist is reported to have said…”He who believes in the Son has eternal life”…that makes sense to me…because it is in Him only…that one can find eternal life…because eternal life is His life and who He is.

In Romans 8 Paul tells us who are called according to His (Yahshua) purpose…that He “foreknew” us and that we were predestined to become conformed to His image. That means that these “whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified”…He gives us His eternal life…

So…if one has “His life” in them…which is “eternal life”…then by virtue of having been filled with the eternal Holy Spirit of God…they are considered by the Lord Yahshua…a spiritual son of God who is partaking in “life eternal…in Christ.”

Now the impact that has on the end of the age, tribulation, or any type of rapture…has got to be considered…which via many years of personal experience, is not really given much thought or discussion. I am trying…however…often times it is due to the immaturity and carnality among the church that keeps this discussion from happening at all.

The predestined “spiritual sons of God” under the Headship of the Lord Yahshua Christ both on the earth and in the heavens constitutes the “spiritual man” known as “Christ” the son of God. The sons of God on the earth will emerge just before the end of this age…as assembled by the Holy Spirit Himself. If you see that…you will notice how it will begin to change your perspective of the end of the age happenings…in many ways. This perspective has the Body of Christ…the now mature sons of God on the earth as Christ until the unveiling of the Lord Himself as He is…and we shall be like He is!

Remember this is in reference to His “foreknowing and predestination” which indicates a “prior too” or “before something”…which in Ephesians 1 Paul will once again talk about those of us chosen in Him from “before” the foundation of the world…that is before creation. Yeh go ahead and look at it…predestined to the adoption as spiritual “sons to God” via the Lord Yahshua Christ.

Further on in Ephesians 1 Paul writes… “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” He tells us that “all things in the heavens and on the earth” will be “summed up in Christ”…of course…it is our “inheritance”…He is eternal and He is eternity itself…so there is the end of all that has been created including the heavens and the earth.

At that point…the end of the age…there will no longer be any purpose for the previously created heavens and earth…their created purpose was to bring forth unto God a spiritual son from every tribe, tongue, people and nation…when that is complete…this creation will be discarded having come to its end in having fulfilled its created purpose…God has no use for that which is not eternal…no…for His purposes…only that which is reconciled to Him which is eternal will exist.

Wow…there is a lot here for us…however I have said enough….this should open door to a further and deeper revelation of Christ…thoughts?

Redd...

 

[Keraz]

False view that suffers from Replacement theology.

Just that accusation shows how confused and deceived you are.

Well, that's my view and you could have another good laugh at that ... until you realize that it is real.
I'll definitely get back to you with updates ... don't have to ... but will make an extra effort just for you Bruce.

Don't bother yourself. Islam will be gone when the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
You rely on speculation and guesswork for your beliefs, your post #52 is bereft of any scriptural support.