A Soldier lashes out at politicians who back the war

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BernieEOD

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Jun 26, 2006
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Thats exactly my point God controls the nations good or Evil he alone decides who wars against another all to his end
And thus nobody has the right to call for this nation to go to war here or there, to topple this government, intall that government, or prop up yet another.
 

BernieEOD

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Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.Jeremiah 21:4 - Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city.Ecclesiastes 3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.Enough said, even though I don't understand everything, I'll stick with His Words, God is in control.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and SAviour of the world.
Nice try, but you have yet to justify this current gospel of bombs & bullets.Easy to call for war and condem those who come back disillusioned when you are not the one getting shot at.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.Jeremiah 21:4 - Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city.Ecclesiastes 3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.Enough said, even though I don't understand everything, I'll stick with His Words, God is in control.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Nice try, but you have yet to justify this current gospel of bombs & bullets.Easy to call for war and condem those who come back disillusioned when you are not the one getting shot at.Do you not realize that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever? (Hebrews 13:8) and same in the OT, God does not change? (Malachi 3:6) and the fact that not all OT prophecy is fulfilled.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

BernieEOD

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So where do you get the idea that we are the right hand of God and called upon to bomb the world into submission? Especially when we are so overcome with drugs, teen sex, abortion, and all the other depravities mention in Romans 1:18-36?Back to the subject of this post. One who has not been over there cannot condem one who has for comming back disillusioned.
 

Christina

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Where do you get the idea you know what God thinks He does as he will for hisreasons you are so convinced you know you are right that America is wrong ONLY GOD KNOWS THAT NOT BERNIE all you have is an opinion based on your expercences understandable but not nessarily Gods perspective you tell me you search the bible you are blind then because Jag and I have both given you scriptures where God says all the things you say he doesnt fact of the matter is we could show you a million scriptures you would still deny it because you think you know Gods mind
 

Jordan

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Where do you get the idea you know what God thinks He does as he will for hisreasons you are so convinced you know you are right that America is wrong ONLY GOD KNOWS THAT NOT BERNIE all you have is an opinion based on your expercences understandable but not nessarily Gods perspective you tell me you search the bible you are blind then because Jag and I have both given you scriptures where God says all the things you say he doesnt fact of the matter is we could show you a million scriptures you would still deny it because you think you know Gods mind
Since when does human read the mind of God? I know for a fact that God can read our mind as well. God has all the knowledge in the world. Humans doesn't.(BernieEOD;33049)
So where do you get the idea that we are the right hand of God and called upon to bomb the world into submission? Especially when we are so overcome with drugs, teen sex, abortion, and all the other depravities mention in Romans 1:18-36?Back to the subject of this post. One who has not been over there cannot condem one who has for comming back disillusioned.
No, but I can quote scriptures on what God says, you obviously are bit so proud of yourself of thinking that you can read Him...God's mind in infinately bigger than our mind. (Proverbs 3:5-7) (Isaiah 55:8-9)If military is needed, it is needed.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

Lunar

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Nov 23, 2007
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Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.Jeremiah 21:4 - Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city.Ecclesiastes 3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Those verses simply say that there is a time for war; it doesn't prove at all that this is the time.
 

Christina

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No the point is Only God decides these things he says he and he alone controls the nations and its leaders he will put hooks in their mouths (force their hand)
 

Lunar

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Nov 23, 2007
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No the point is Only God decides these things he says he and he alone controls the nations and its leaders he will put hooks in their mouths (force their hand)
So there has never been an unjust war? Every war ever has been preordained by God?This seems to say some disturbing things about free will. It also, as best I can tell, isn't supported in scripture. Not by those verses, anyway - nothing there says anything about God justifying every war, or even his controlling the leaders of nations.
 

BernieEOD

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No the point is Only God decides these things he says he and he alone controls the nations and its leaders he will put hooks in their mouths (force their hand)
It is with this attitude that people have commited the most henious attrocites in the name of God. The Church is not commanded to compel governments to go to war. Any CHurch thqat does is a fake church. God does not fly the flag of any nation nor does he command nations to go to war in his name.
 

DrBubbaLove

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What would be the point and how effective would a nation's military be if every soldier was allowed to say (and decide that) I don't want to be here now or be doing this now?War is hell, should not be necessary, is bad and the cry for blood by someone never experienced in it is of less force. It doesn't follow that such a cry is necessarily false or misguided. None of those statements address the responsibility of a person who has agreed to be a soldier or even one pressed into that service. Nor does it suggest that a country should not be able to call on citizens to be soldiers. Whether the citizen agrees with the cause is irrelevant to the power a nation should have to call on citizens to fight. It is part of what being a citizen of that country means, just as being able to voice one's opinion is a proper right in this country.Go into any VFW (for help finding it for some of you, that would be the building with that red, white, blue flag with stars on it and a black one flying underneath it) and you may well find some bitter, disillusioned individuals. You will certainly find disagreement in politics and leadership. But you will also find not a few that would kick the *** of any soldier whining about having to do what soldiers have to do, especially during happy hour. You will find as well, many very proud of their service and the service of ALL current active duty members, even if they disagreed with the politics. And you will find people that served in not just one war, but many wars. People that flew combat missions and did multiple combat tours in three wars when they could have stopped at one combat tour. People that volunteered to fly long after the military told them they did not have to go on those missions any more. Those same men will also say war is hell, ugly and they were/are not eager to do it again. They may even express doubts about the reasons the nation was there or the purpose of a particular mission. But those same men felt a responsibility as a citizen first and as soldier to do what soldiers do. And every single one of them had many moments during that time where they said "I don't want to be here.", even tearful heartfelt longings to be somewhere else. Whether they agreed with the politics of their particular war or not, most of those men don't like talking about it. Certainly not as much as those who are bitter about their service. Which suggests to me a different cause for both the bitterness and being disillusion as well as the public expression of it.A soldier is not free to express his opinions. For keeping simple discipline in any military ranks, an active soldier is not as free as Joe citizen to do so. You cannot effectively lead a military allowing every malcontent to freely voice an opinion. Being able to find a soldier or a former one that will trash Bush, the country or our being in Iraq now, does not mean he or she speaks for all soldiers.
 

BernieEOD

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(DrBubbaLove;33158)
What would be the point and how effective would a nation's military be if every soldier was allowed to say (and decide that) I don't want to be here now or be doing this now?War is hell, should not be necessary, is bad and the cry for blood by someone never experienced in it is of less force. It doesn't follow that such a cry is necessarily false or misguided. None of those statements address the responsibility of a person who has agreed to be a soldier or even one pressed into that service. Nor does it suggest that a country should not be able to call on citizens to be soldiers. Whether the citizen agrees with the cause is irrelevant to the power a nation should have to call on citizens to fight. It is part of what being a citizen of that country means, just as being able to voice one's opinion is a proper right in this country.Go into any VFW (for help finding it for some of you, that would be the building with that red, white, blue flag with stars on it and a black one flying underneath it) and you may well find some bitter, disillusioned individuals. You will certainly find disagreement in politics and leadership. But you will also find not a few that would kick the *** of any soldier whining about having to do what soldiers have to do, especially during happy hour. You will find as well, many very proud of their service and the service of ALL current active duty members, even if they disagreed with the politics. And you will find people that served in not just one war, but many wars. People that flew combat missions and did multiple combat tours in three wars when they could have stopped at one combat tour. People that volunteered to fly long after the military told them they did not have to go on those missions any more. Those same men will also say war is hell, ugly and they were/are not eager to do it again. They may even express doubts about the reasons the nation was there or the purpose of a particular mission. But those same men felt a responsibility as a citizen first and as soldier to do what soldiers do. And every single one of them had many moments during that time where they said "I don't want to be here.", even tearful heartfelt longings to be somewhere else. Whether they agreed with the politics of their particular war or not, most of those men don't like talking about it. Certainly not as much as those who are bitter about their service. Which suggests to me a different cause for both the bitterness and being disillusion as well as the public expression of it.A soldier is not free to express his opinions. For keeping simple discipline in any military ranks, an active soldier is not as free as Joe citizen to do so. You cannot effectively lead a military allowing every malcontent to freely voice an opinion. Being able to find a soldier or a former one that will trash Bush, the country or our being in Iraq now, does not mean he or she speaks for all soldiers.
We are talking about veterans who have done their duty, kept their opinions to themselves, and waited until they were discharged in order to voice them.Nuremburg has established that blind obedience to orders is not a valid excuse. When Germany re unified, two border guards were sentenced two ten years for "Doing their duty" By enforcing the laws of East Germany and shooting the last to die trying to escape.As far as the VFW is concerned, I refused to join it after serving 26 years because they reminded me too much of the character Bruch Springsteen sang about in his song "Glory days" I am not about to join those old farts boasting about "Back in my day!". My wife has standing orders to put me out of my misery if I ever am caught wearing one of those veterans hats.As a veteran, I refuse to cower behind the military while talking tough against other nations. As a citizen, it is my duty to question the cause.
 

BernieEOD

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The Gospel, more than any other faith, calls for obedience to a higher authority.We are indeed called upon to obey those in authority to the extent where we do not act against the Will of God. Having been to Italy, We visited several Churches which are named after Roman Soldiers who refused to obey their orders to kill Christians and instead, took thier place beside those they were ordered to kill.In war, each side believes it is so right that not only do their own soldiers have no right to question the cause, but the enemy has no right to resist them. In Nuremburg, one of the charges they attempted to levy against Goering was for the "Murder" of allied bomber crews by his Luftwaffe. (How dare you Defend yourself!) Goering eloquently pointed out that in Dresdyn, Berlin, Colonge, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki it was they who were the murderers and if they were going to charge him with defending the population of a city it simply reflected on them who they really were. When they tried to charge him with the London Blitz, he called fourth Ed "Bomber" Harris, Hap Arnold, and Curtis LeMay and forced them to confess that they copied many of his doctrines and "Improved upon them". The only charges against Goering that stuck were not for what he did as Chief of the Luftwaffe but as interior minister and his hand in helping Himler deal with the Jews.Just as "Our side" Wishes to charge anybody who opposes us as criminals, Even soldiers who obey orders, amsey Clark and the UN War crimes tribunal wishes to charge not only both Bush's, but every officer and NCO who was involved in the Gulf war and every war since. Once again, obeying orders will not be an excuse.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Part of any officer's training and presumably any soldier is their duty to follow LAWFUL orders. Not following orders will be punished, but if one can demonstrate the order was unlawful then not following can be exonerated. Unlawful is not the same as saying I disagree that we should be doing this.In the military having a dissenting opinion and expressing it (or not) is not the same as not following or following orders. These are two different matters. Logically the military cannot function if every order must be followed only if each man agrees it should be followed. You cannot run a military that way. As the manual for court martial puts it ""The dictates of a person's conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order,"As for VFWs being full of just old farts, that depends on where one lives and your age. In San Diego you will find many post with members younger than either of us that would call us both old farts. Agree in some places the air in the VFW can be rather moldy. However, many of the current VFW members were also Vietnam vets, a most politically dividing and unpopular war publicly. Yet whether any two Vietnam Vets disagree politically, if they are members they are both proud of their service and of each other's. But even in the public bars where currently active military hang in San Diego or any military town, one would get one's *** kicked for expressing the disrespect shown here. So even if they agree with the "soldier's" opinion on CNN, they would still kick him in the *** if that view was expressed to their face in the same manner.
 

Christina

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So there has never been an unjust war? Every war ever has been preordained by God?This seems to say some disturbing things about free will. It also, as best I can tell, isn't supported in scripture. Not by those verses, anyway - nothing there says anything about God justifying every war, or even his controlling the leaders of nations.
No thats not what Im saying all war is unjust to someone we should hate war what I am saying is that if God allows it we are not in a position to second guess him example: The war that brought about the holocaust was a horrible war men thought they were fighting for one reason but God knew it would result in the Re-gathering of the Jews to Israel which was the fulfillment of prophecy So from Gods perspective it was necessary in his plan of the agesWe can not know which wars he allows for his purposes so we must hate them but trust that God says he is in control of these things.
 

BernieEOD

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Part of any officer's training and presumably any soldier is their duty to follow LAWFUL orders. Not following orders will be punished, but if one can demonstrate the order was unlawful then not following can be exonerated. Unlawful is not the same as saying I disagree that we should be doing this.In the military having a dissenting opinion and expressing it (or not) is not the same as not following or following orders. These are two different matters. Logically the military cannot function if every order must be followed only if each man agrees it should be followed. You cannot run a military that way. As the manual for court martial puts it ""The dictates of a person's conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order,"As for VFWs being full of just old farts, that depends on where one lives and your age. In San Diego you will find many post with members younger than either of us that would call us both old farts. Agree in some places the air in the VFW can be rather moldy. However, many of the current VFW members were also Vietnam vets, a most politically dividing and unpopular war publicly. Yet whether any two Vietnam Vets disagree politically, if they are members they are both proud of their service and of each other's. But even in the public bars where currently active military hang in San Diego or any military town, one would get one's *** kicked for expressing the disrespect shown here. So even if they agree with the "soldier's" opinion on CNN, they would still kick him in the *** if that view was expressed to their face in the same manner.
The East German Border guards were following orders that were "Lawfull" by the standards of thier government and yet, the Newly united Germany saw fit to sentance them to 10 years. If we ever elected the wrong President and were ordered to attack Isreal on behalf of the Arabs, those would be lawfull orders and you would be screaming bloody murder.Once again, this is not about those who are still in uniform. It is about those who are honorably discharged and now voicing their disillusionment.As far as getting my %$^& kicked. Well, that happens all the time anyway.Sailors VS Marines VS Army VS Air Force. Even within the Navy, you have Surface VS Air VS Submarine VS Spec War. And even with the Spec war Navy, it's SEAL VS EOD VS SeaBee VS SBU. We EOD guys have a habit of starting a lot of "Bar fights" Just with some of our T Shirts. One reads "Fly Navy! Divers Need the work!" Another shows a Dolphin in the MK-6 marine Mammal System choking a character who too closly resembles the SEALS "Freddy Frog" And the Dolphin shouting "Not on your Best Day Frogboy!" So if one desires to fight because of my opinion...Bring it on.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Am not the one insulting people and using fighting words. People express differing opinions all the time with out resulting to a fight. We have a few post members that think Clinton was the best president ever, I still buy them a beer and they me and have not punched each other out yet.If you are looking for a fight come on down to Coronado VFW or to the McPs any Friday evening and maintain your tone. If I am not there am sure someone else will oblige you. If want to drink and talk, first one is on me.Some of the men at My Lai tried to use the same defense as the Germans, Lt Calley ordered it. Calley said his boss ordered it. A defense which fails as it did for the Germans when one asks would the average person consider such an order lawful. There is a presumption that orders should be lawful, but when it comes to the commission of a crime like murder the sane person should know the difference and the right thing to do.
 

BernieEOD

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Don't hang out in bars and don't drink. I prefer to make new memories rather than continue to re live old ones. The point here is about those who have served and are now expressing their disillusionment. Those who have never been in the service much less having been in a war zone are in no position to condem those who have for being disillusioned.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Good for you! Probably better for you to stay away from such places. Well you know where to find me. My point was there are plenty of people who have served without being disillusioned even though they disagreed with the politics that got them there and they did not have to or want to go on TV to complain about it when they were done. Every unit I have seen has unhappy people in it, just like the ones we see on TV. The office is no different. But the plight of these people has nothing to do with politics or why the government did this or that. They are just unhappy, disgruntled, bitter people.And no matter what a person's religious, personal opinion or politics are, across the board you can find a hundred other men that; while maybe unhappy with the current administration, politics or even disagreeing with the mission; they were not only happy but also proud to be soldiers serving this country. And no matter what their political opinions, very very few of them would ever seek out a lime light focusing on their service, either negatively or positively UNLESS there was some advantage to them for doing so. Am not a big fan, but Montel Williams has a record to be proud of and he does not typically speak of it and is very modest when he has. That has been my experience.In short, if in fact these people we see now were soldiers in combat, it is more likely that what is bothering them now has nothing to do with being a soldier or what they did or were asked to do. For every sad Vietnam war vet one can show, there were hundreds of others that went through the same thing or far worse and you would never know it. How many people outside the military realized the horrors Admiral Jim Stockdale, (Ross Perot's running mate for most of you) lived through?
 

Lunar

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No thats not what Im saying all war is unjust to someone we should hate war what I am saying is that if God allows it we are not in a position to second guess him example: The war that brought about the holocaust was a horrible war men thought they were fighting for one reason but God knew it would result in the Re-gathering of the Jews to Israel which was the fulfillment of prophecy So from Gods perspective it was necessary in his plan of the agesWe can not know which wars he allows for his purposes so we must hate them but trust that God says he is in control of these things.
How far are you going to take this logic, though? God allows lots of terrible things to happen, but obviously we're supposed to stop some of them. For instance, let's say you're against abortion. Clearly God is allowing abortions to happen - you can't question that, it's simply a fact that they are happening. But would you say that the fact that God has allowed them to happen entails that you ought not to do something about it?Everything that is happening is as such, in part, due to the fact that God did not willfully make it otherwise. That doesn't mean that we can't change anything.