A Textual Challenge to the “Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations” Position

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Moonwood

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The challenge is to prove that Mary did not have normal married relations after the birth of Christ
List those verses please

No, that is not the challenge.
The title of the thread is:

"A Textual Challenge to the 'Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations' Position."

The challenge is not:

"Prove Mary's perpetual virginity."

The challenge is:

"Can the belief that Mary and Joseph had later marital relations be reconciled with Luke 1:34-37?"

Those are different questions.
The subject of this thread is whether your position adequately explains:
  • Mary's statement, "I know not man."
  • Gabriel's explanation of divine conception.
  • Gabriel's appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception.
  • His conclusion, "For with God nothing shall be impossible."
So I'll ask again:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph, and therefore expected future conception through Joseph, why does She present not knowing man as the obstacle to the announced conception when Gabriel never specifies when the conception will occur? And how does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?

If you can answer that, you'll have addressed the challenge. If not, then repeatedly asking me to prove a different proposition simply changes the subject.
 

Dryhn

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No, that is not the challenge.
The title of the thread is:

"A Textual Challenge to the 'Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations' Position."

The challenge is not:

"Prove Mary's perpetual virginity."

The challenge is:

"Can the belief that Mary and Joseph had later marital relations be reconciled with Luke 1:34-37?"

Those are different questions.
The subject of this thread is whether your position adequately explains:
  • Mary's statement, "I know not man."
  • Gabriel's explanation of divine conception.
  • Gabriel's appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception.
  • His conclusion, "For with God nothing shall be impossible."
So I'll ask again:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph, and therefore expected future conception through Joseph, why does She present not knowing man as the obstacle to the announced conception when Gabriel never specifies when the conception will occur? And how does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?

If you can answer that, you'll have addressed the challenge. If not, then repeatedly asking me to prove a different proposition simply changes the subject.
and so far you have failed to disprove normal relations between Mary & Joseph following the birth of Christ
 

beechan

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Many here — including @Titus, @David in NJ, @Armour of God, @marks, @David Lamb, @sondring7, and @markalan — reject the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity and instead assert that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus. The usual arguments are:
  • Marriage is oriented toward procreation (Genesis 2).
  • “To know one’s wife” means sexual relations.
  • “Joseph knew Her not until She had given birth to a Son” (Matthew 1:25), therefore they must have had intercourse afterward.
  • Paul teaches that spouses owe each other conjugal rights except for limited periods (1 Corinthians 7).
If this position is truly confident, scriptural, and well‑supported — and if those of us who disagree, including myself, @BreadOfLife, @Marymog, and @GodsGrace, are mistaken — then it should be able to withstand these simple, text‑based questions.

​

1. Mary’s Question to Gabriel (Luke 1:34)​

When Gabriel announces that Mary will conceive a son, Mary replies:

“How will this occur, since I do not know man (οὐ γινώσκω ἄνδρα)?”

The text shows Mary:
  • betrothed (legally married under Jewish law; cf. Matthew 1:19–20) to Joseph (Luke 1:27),
  • responding to the announcement of conception by asking how conception will occur (Luke 1:34)
  • explaining Her confusion by stating that She “does not know man” (Luke 1:34)
So the question stands:

If Mary expected normal marital relations with Joseph, why does She ask how conception will occur — and explain Her confusion by saying She "knows not man"?

​

2. Gabriel’s Answer (Luke 1:35–37)​

Gabriel answers Mary’s question by describing a conception brought about by divine action:

“The Holy Spirit will come upon You, and the power of the Most High will overshadow You.”
“Your kinswoman Elizabeth has conceived in her old age… for nothing will be impossible with God.”


The text shows Gabriel responding to Mary’s question with:
  • a description of miraculous conception,
  • an example of another woman whose conception was naturally impossible,
  • and a statement that God overcomes what is impossible.
So the question stands:

If Mary expected to conceive naturally through Joseph, why does Gabriel respond with a description of miraculous, non‑sexual conception and reinforce it by citing Elizabeth — a woman whose conception was naturally impossible? What relevance would Elizabeth’s impossibility have if Mary’s conception were expected to be natural?


These questions arise directly from Luke’s narrative logic. If the text supports the expectation of normal marital relations, it should be possible to explain why Mary and Gabriel speak as though conception is impossible without divine intervention. Impossibilities in Scripture are tied to physical obstructions — barrenness, age, infertility, or lack of a husband. Mary has none of these. Under Her circumstances, natural conception through Joseph is entirely possible. Yet She speaks as though conception is impossible under Her expected future circumstances. I ask that responses address these questions directly, without shifting to unrelated topics or assumptions.

And I don't want anyone to view an inability to answer this challenge, or a decision to reevaluate a long-held belief, as some kind of personal failure.

The purpose of this challenge is not to embarrass, ridicule, or humiliate anyone. Quite the opposite.

If anything, I have respect for those who are willing to set aside assumptions about my being Catholic and honestly engage the textual argument itself.

If someone carefully considers these questions and concludes that their current position should be reevaluated, I would see that not as a weakness but as an intellectual and spiritual strength.

My hope is not victory over other Christians, but greater understanding, greater honesty with the text, and ultimately greater unity among those who sincerely seek the truth.
It is the Protestants today that bring up the “Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations” position.

Strangely, the early prominent Protestant figures Martin Luther, Calvin and Zwingli said the otherwise

(1) Luther explicitly defended Mary’s perpetual virginity many times.
“She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ.
She was a virgin before the birth, she was a virgin in the birth, and she remained a virgin after the birth.
”
— Sermon on the Magnificat (1521)


(2) Calvin, though rejecting later Catholic Marian devotion, affirmed perpetual virginity and used the same linguistic defense of heōs hou:
“He [Joseph] had no intercourse with her until she had brought forth her firstborn son.
No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words that Joseph had intercourse with her after her delivery; what took place afterward the historian does not inform us.
He simply means that Mary remained a virgin until she had brought forth her Son.”
— Commentary on Matthew 1:25

(3) Zwingli, the Swiss Reformer, was even more emphatic:
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the Gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
— Zwingli, Sermon on “Mary, Ever Virgin, Mother of God,” 1524


I don't know why their teachings were twisted to what we have today.
 

Moonwood

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and so far you have failed to disprove normal relations between Mary & Joseph following the birth of Christ

Once again, you're treating two different questions as though they were the same.
I have never claimed that this thread was titled:

"A Demonstration of Mary's Perpetual Virginity."

It is titled:

"A Textual Challenge to the 'Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations' Position."

The purpose of the thread is to examine whether that position can be reconciled with Luke 1:34-37.
Therefore, even if you believe I have not disproven later marital relations, that still would not answer the challenge.
The challenge remains:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph, and therefore expected future conception through Joseph, why does She present "I know not man" as the obstacle to the announced conception when Gabriel never specifies when the conception will occur?

And how does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, his appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and his conclusion, "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?


Simply asserting that I have not disproven your conclusion is not the same thing as reconciling your conclusion with Luke's narrative.
The challenge is not whether I can prove my position. The challenge is whether you can explain those features of Luke's text within yours.
 

Dryhn

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Once again, you're treating two different questions as though they were the same.
I have never claimed that this thread was titled:

"A Demonstration of Mary's Perpetual Virginity."

It is titled:

"A Textual Challenge to the 'Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations' Position."

The purpose of the thread is to examine whether that position can be reconciled with Luke 1:34-37.
Therefore, even if you believe I have not disproven later marital relations, that still would not answer the challenge.
The challenge remains:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph, and therefore expected future conception through Joseph, why does She present "I know not man" as the obstacle to the announced conception when Gabriel never specifies when the conception will occur?

And how does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, his appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and his conclusion, "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?


Simply asserting that I have not disproven your conclusion is not the same thing as reconciling your conclusion with Luke's narrative.
The challenge is not whether I can prove my position. The challenge is whether you can explain those features of Luke's text within yours.
Before Christ was born Mary was a virgin -
“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

AFTER the birth of Christ list the verses that confirm Mary remained a virgin