A Time Before Land-- looking back.... A New Adventure Series with Mr E

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A flashback. One of those little stories within a story. Moses does this often. He tells you a story, then he tells you a story about the story. It's why Genesis one and two treat the same subject matter so differently-- the latter providing details missing from the original telling. There isn't hardly a drama on television that can resist employing this story-telling mechanism.

Most often, when doing so-- the second telling is a telling of what happened first. It's not deja vu---- it's detail.

With this concept in mind concerning a world full of created images-- full of creatures below-- that are physical likenesses of beings (elohim) from above---- we can gain some understanding of who and what this snake is and where he came from. This one who suddenly appears in the garden with Adam and Eve, who approaches and speaks to her.

*Spoiler Alert*

Snakes don't talk.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's among questions often asked. Why are things so messed up? How did 'everything that was created good,' -go so bad? Did God create evil?
Those are bad questions.

'Things' are better than they were in the past and have been trending up for thousands of years now. Everything was not created 'perfect' but rather things were created unformed, and God has been forming it ever since and continues to do so... hence the way that things are slowly improving.

--Where did "demons" come from, if not created?
"Demons" arise through the act of demonizing. People do that, not gods or titans or giants.

And is earth in some sense-- a prison? Or is it a school? What is it? What is the purpose?
Earth is humanity's home, past and future. At the end of this story, the people do not become light-beams and fly away to space. Rather, God comes down to the earth to be with His people.

Salvation is found in God's Incarnation; not man's disincarnation. This is the pattern of the thing - Emmanuel - God with us.

-The confusion, might be your own. I've come to use, interchangably the terms- angels and spirits. Both terms can be used loosely to describe these divine beings that scripture calls elohim. In a more technical understanding-- angel (malak) is properly understood as a function of an elohim. It is used to describe what the elohim/divine/spiritual being is doing-- acting as an emissary, or messenger and delivering a message. How these angels do that is in spirit, as they are spiritual beings and not corporeal. You might see and interact with them while you are in spirit-- that is, while you are dreaming. Or, you might interact with them while they appear 'in-person' -- that is, while a person is wide awake, an angel visits them, rests upon them, guides them, and prompts them to say or do certain things in a way that you might think of as akin to a rider on a horse. He reins, or spurs, or prompts in ways the horse understands and has learned to follow, and one does the will of the other to whatever extent the horse is willing.
They aren't interchangeable that way. You are correct to say that malaak/angel is a function or title, but that function isn't exclusive to spirits. Seraphim and Cherubim/θρόνοi are angels with physical form, but not the physical form of men. And men and beasts and even the stars of the sky can function as God's messengers.

While we're at it, the Hebrew word for king (malak) is functionally identical to its word for angel (malaak) because they share a meaning. One acts as God's representative to mankind, and the other does too. All kings are angels, and it isn't because they lack a body.

It's the same with these fallen ones, you call devils. They weren't always devils, but were created good. They "fell" into idolatry and sin and were separated from the holy ones who remained in the presence of God (in the heavenly realm) and these fallen ones were sent away and confined to the earthly plane. This isn't a spiritual place. It's physical. Spirits don't roam free-- they must be contained and as such they only have influence -in you- and in me, and even in four-footed beasts as Enoch tells us. The concept is emphasized in the scriptures where the demons plead to be sent into the herd of pigs rather than a place of torment. This is where the idea of demon-possession comes from and it's the other end of the spectrum, the opposite of what I described above as being "inspired" as were the writers of scripture-- being 'filled with the spirit' and having 'the word of God come upon you' -- these are all wordy ways of saying the same things. For good, or evil-- we are all to some degree, 'under the influence.' It works the same for these fallen ones, with the exception being who sends whom. Just as the elohim in the divine council above had/have a Chief-- there is one who sought to displace him and that one is Chief here-- I think of him as the Warden, where the insane are running the asylum.
The function of a devil is to accuse the guilty. The great metaphor of the universe is not a prison... it's a courtroom. These are the plaintiffs, and their function isn't necessarily evil. Man calls it evil because it rarely works in our favor. It is only truly evil when the accusation is false.

And this "warden" you speak of, the Father of Lies, was defeated long ago. The gates of Hades did NOT prevail to keep Jesus out, and He has set the captives free. Jesus now reigns, and I don't mean from far away as some sort of absentee landlord.

The gospel remains true - the kingdom of God is at hand. Here. Now. Our salvation is found in God's incarnation, not in man's disincarnation.
 

Wynona

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Jan 27, 2021
3,596
7,372
113
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All things are in God. Slice up that Rock. Go ahead. Which slice came into being first, and which one last?

But, no, time is an illusion of this world...even if some do not know it yet.
View attachment 43686
Sorry for being random but where'd you find this comic? It's priceless!
 
  • Love
Reactions: APAK

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They aren't interchangeable that way. You are correct to say that malaak/angel is a function or title, but that function isn't exclusive to spirits. Seraphim and Cherubim/θρόνοi are angels with physical form, but not the physical form of men. And men and beasts and even the stars of the sky can function as God's messengers.

While we're at it, the Hebrew word for king (malak) is functionally identical to its word for angel (malaak) because they share a meaning. One acts as God's representative to mankind, and the other does too. All kings are angels, and it isn't because they lack a body.

ummm --- in a word.... No.

I'm happy to address your points in time, but before doing so let's look at just one of you premises--


  • "Melakh" refers to "salt" in Hebrew.
  • "Melekh" means "king" in Hebrew.
  • "Malakh" translates to "angel" in Hebrew.
  • "Molech" is the name of a specific god in Hebrew.

It's like looking at English words-- dog, dock, dodge, duck and Doug and trying to convince people that they are all the same meaning.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,155
9,874
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry for being random but where'd you find this comic? It's priceless!
It should read they were all non-right, to be kinder and gentler in bringing the 'truth.' to the masses.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Wynona

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ummm --- in a word.... No.

I'm happy to address your points in time, but before doing so let's look at just one of you premises--
  • "Melakh" refers to "salt" in Hebrew.
  • "Melekh" means "king" in Hebrew.
  • "Malakh" translates to "angel" in Hebrew.
  • "Molech" is the name of a specific god in Hebrew.
It's like looking at English words-- dog, dock, dodge, duck and Doug and trying to convince people that they are all the same meaning.
That wasn't a premise of what I said. That was an aside that was tangentially related and provided as a matter of curiousity.

No, deciphering ancient Hebrew is NOT like looking at English words. English has over 150K words, and most words have one meaning. Ancient Hebrew has just 8000-ish words, and every word has multiple meanings - all the words are overloaded. In Hebrew, each word relates to a picture and the correct meaning may be anything related to that picture, as determined by context.

For king-malak and angel-malaak, that picture is one of a message or writ of authority. A king is stationary, and an angel is itinerant, but they perform the same function - they act in the word and authority of God. These are variations on the same word.

Salt-melah and Molech are a different root and the picture for both is one of purification by fire. Molech is a fire deity and salt is related because when you forge, you salt your fire with saltpeter - an accelerant used for making fires burn hotter.

If you wish to address my points, you're welcome to it... but I'd rather you consider them than address them.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What you said-- was this>>>

While we're at it, the Hebrew word for king (malak) is functionally identical to its word for angel (malaak) because they share a meaning. One acts as God's representative to mankind, and the other does too. All kings are angels, and it isn't because they lack a body.

And that's simply not true. I do understand what you are saying-- and I disagree with what you are saying.

For king-malak and angel-malaak, that picture is one of a message or writ of authority. A king is stationary, and an angel is itinerant, but they perform the same function - they act in the word and authority of God. These are variations on the same word.

They are not "functionally identical." If you had said-- "they sound the same" I would agree with you, because they do-- but they are not the same and certainly not identical in function or meaning. A better example I could have used to invoke your primary differentiation-- that being positional (stationary) as in a king versus one acting on behalf of a king --in motion, going as a representative, or messenger carrying a writ/word of that king is this---

Reign versus Rain. They sound the same, but they are not the same. A king reigns and sits (on a throne) in authority and supremacy, but he doesn't rain. Raining and reigning are not the same, yet a king can certainly rain down wrath through emissaries. The two words are not "functionally identical" and they don't mean the same thing. If they were, they could be used interchangeably. They cannot.

Check out a few places where the differentiation is made-- king and angel in the same text, with entirely separate (not functionally identical) meanings... say-- the book of Daniel, where he is talking to the king about an angel. The difference got him out of the lion's den.

However-- that's more than enough of an aside. If you want your points considered, consider starting your own thread to discuss them. Here, I get to pick and choose speed and direction. ;)
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
However-- that's more than enough of an aside. If you want your points considered, consider starting your own thread to discuss them. Here, I get to pick and choose speed and direction. ;)
Fair enough. I still get to wish you had responded to anything relevant, rather than hyperfocusing on a bit of trivia.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Fair enough. I still get to wish you had responded to anything relevant, rather than hyperfocusing on a bit of trivia.

Let's ignore your textual errors then. At least, let's not hyperfocus on it. When you wish upon a star......

'Things' are better than they were in the past and have been trending up for thousands of years now. Everything was not created 'perfect' but rather things were created unformed, and God has been forming it ever since and continues to do so... hence the way that things are slowly improving.

Really? What 'things?' Do things improve over time, or do the deteriorate? Since the context was the story being told at the beginning of Genesis-- did 'things' improve by Genesis 3? How about Genesis 6? or 10?

"Things" didn't slowly improve.


"Demons" arise through the act of demonizing. People do that, not gods or titans or giants.

Angels and Demons are spiritual-- not people. On this much, I'm in agreement with you.

Earth is humanity's home, past and future. At the end of this story, the people do not become light-beams and fly away to space. Rather, God comes down to the earth to be with His people.

Salvation is found in God's Incarnation; not man's disincarnation. This is the pattern of the thing - Emmanuel - God with us.

God is with His people now (His people are not people, but spirit). His kingdom is within, not in outer space. It's a spiritual realm, -it's not a matter of waiting for God to come to earth to be with us--- rather we will be with Him and He lives in us.

The function of a devil is to accuse the guilty. The great metaphor of the universe is not a prison... it's a courtroom. These are the plaintiffs, and their function isn't necessarily evil. Man calls it evil because it rarely works in our favor. It is only truly evil when the accusation is false.

And this "warden" you speak of, the Father of Lies, was defeated long ago. The gates of Hades did NOT prevail to keep Jesus out, and He has set the captives free. Jesus now reigns, and I don't mean from far away as some sort of absentee landlord.

The gospel remains true - the kingdom of God is at hand. Here. Now. Our salvation is found in God's incarnation, not in man's disincarnation.

A courtroom, where judgments are made and sentences are pronounced.... and the sentences are life sentences and they are served--- wait for it....... in prison. Who's in charge of this earth? If you said- the Warden was left in charge of the prison-- you'd be correct.

What good is a courtroom if there is no associated prison system? Salvation has nothing to do with anything here in this 'dying place.' The promise is after-death.... resurrection. To be raised from the dead, and to be born again. Did Jesus reign on earth? You talk about him reigning now-- it's not in Jerusalem, friend.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's ignore your textual errors then. At least, let's not hyperfocus on it. When you wish upon a star......
That's an ironic turn of phrase... leaves me wondering if the irony is intentional or no.
Really? What 'things?' Do things improve over time, or do the deteriorate? Since the context was the story being told at the beginning of Genesis-- did 'things' improve by Genesis 3? How about Genesis 6? or 10?

"Things" didn't slowly improve.
I see how many come to that conclusion based on the text, but... Genesis 1-10 isn't a coherent chronological narrative. It's a patchwork quilt of traditions from several cultures.

I would encourage you to use your eyes and a history book. Yes, things are improving. It's no longer fashionable to immolate newborn babies, or crush them death and bury them in the walls of your house for luck. Genocide is now a war crime instead of the norm. Worker's rights have greatly expanded. Consumer protection laws exist. Knowledge has expanded exponentially.

The Lord is on the throne, and He shall reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

God is with His people now (His people are not people, but spirit). His kingdom is within, not in outer space. It's a spiritual realm, -it's not a matter of waiting for God to come to earth to be with us--- rather we will be with Him and He lives in us.
Reading this thread, I had thought you were the one locating Him in outer space? I guess you're more of an alternate-dimension sort of guy?

But it's neither of those - it's here and now. The kingdom is within us, but we are here.

A courtroom, where judgments are made and sentences are pronounced.... and the sentences are life sentences and they are served--- wait for it....... in prison. Who's in charge of this earth? If you said- the Warden was left in charge of the prison-- you'd be correct.

What good is a courtroom if there is no associated prison system? Salvation has nothing to do with anything here in this 'dying place.' The promise is after-death.... resurrection. To be raised from the dead, and to be born again. Did Jesus reign on earth? You talk about him reigning now-- it's not in Jerusalem, friend.
Eh... the Old Testament courtroom doesn't really come with a prison of the modern sort. The condemned is subject either to (1) make reparations, (2) vengeance, or (3) death.

If reparations are ordered and the judged is not able to make them, they would become indentured until they are paid. That's as close as we get to prison. '3 hots and a cot' was a burden on society that they couldn't afford.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've been a traveling man and just getting back to this now. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, without agreement.

Yes, things are improving. It's no longer fashionable to immolate newborn babies, or crush them death and bury them in the walls of your house for luck. Genocide is now a war crime instead of the norm. Worker's rights have greatly expanded. Consumer protection laws exist. Knowledge has expanded exponentially.

Do you consider it to be an improvement to dismember babies in the womb and suck their body parts out with a vacuum-- AND THEN incinerate them rather than "immolate" newborns? In what way is it different, or better? Or maybe you think it's 'better' to put those parts up for sale to be used for 'science' or face creams? There are more abortions performed today than ever before in the history of mankind. It's not even comparable, in terms of numbers....

Today-- 60% of the ever-increasing numbers of abortions are performed not by physicians in clinics-- but by a woman taking a pill. Is this the improvement you are pointing toward? The mother is the house where those babies are killed within the walls having never seen the light of day.

Reading this thread, I had thought you were the one locating Him in outer space? I guess you're more of an alternate-dimension sort of guy?

But it's neither of those - it's here and now. The kingdom is within us, but we are here.

Inner space. Scripture is clear on this, but yes-- that's another realm.

Eh... the Old Testament courtroom doesn't really come with a prison of the modern sort. The condemned is subject either to (1) make reparations, (2) vengeance, or (3) death.

If reparations are ordered and the judged is not able to make them, they would become indentured until they are paid. That's as close as we get to prison. '3 hots and a cot' was a burden on society that they couldn't afford.


I'm not talking about an old testament courtroom, but a heavenly one. And every sentence is a life sentence.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are we doing here? What is the purpose? Why are we here?

From a spiritual (heavenly) perspective-- is our human experience even significant?

You've heard the 'row your boat' philosophical quip--

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin -a French, Jesuit Catholic Priest. (life is but a dream).


But is life (our human experience) a training ground of sorts-- like a school we one day hope to graduate from? - Or is it a penitentiary, where we serve time, doing hard labor as a sort of punishment to pay recompense for wrong-doing?

It's kind of both-- while at once, not only both. It's also field work, where laborers volunteer their time and effort as an act of service to the slaves/students.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you consider it to be an improvement to dismember babies in the womb and suck their body parts out with a vacuum-- AND THEN incinerate them rather than "immolate" newborns? In what way is it different, or better? Or maybe you think it's 'better' to put those parts up for sale to be used for 'science' or face creams? There are more abortions performed today than ever before in the history of mankind. It's not even comparable, in terms of numbers....

Today-- 60% of the ever-increasing numbers of abortions are performed not by physicians in clinics-- but by a woman taking a pill. Is this the improvement you are pointing toward? The mother is the house where those babies are killed within the walls having never seen the light of day.
A good answer would take a lot of space and lead us off-topic. So instead, a rhetorical question that I think answers -

Do you think partial-birth abortions and third-trimester abortions are worse than early-term abortions and the morning-after pill? I do.

Inner space. Scripture is clear on this, but yes-- that's another realm.
I don't think of it that way, but I'm not averse to trying on someone else's mindset...

So then... how do you formulate it? There is an entire dimension of thought? A mindscape, so to speak. Can people interact in that dimension? Read each other's minds? Pull thoughts from a common pool of experience? Is this like Jung's collective subconscious?

And is this the same thing as the heaven of the New Testament?

It's an interesting line of thinking. It needs some refinement, but I'm not sure exactly how much is knowable or testable on this subject.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A good answer would take a lot of space and lead us off-topic. So instead, a rhetorical question that I think answers -

Do you think partial-birth abortions and third-trimester abortions are worse than early-term abortions and the morning-after pill? I do.


I don't think of it that way, but I'm not averse to trying on someone else's mindset...

So then... how do you formulate it? There is an entire dimension of thought? A mindscape, so to speak. Can people interact in that dimension? Read each other's minds? Pull thoughts from a common pool of experience? Is this like Jung's collective subconscious?

And is this the same thing as the heaven of the New Testament?

It's an interesting line of thinking. It needs some refinement, but I'm not sure exactly how much is knowable or testable on this subject.

Immaterial and incorporeal. Those are the answers to both of your rhetorical sets.

Which is worse? A serial killer who suffocates victims in their sleep, or a serial killer who mutilates? --- does it matter, the morning after?

--I think you might be referring to Jung's collective unconsciousness, but no-- I am not. I'm talking about the spiritual realm as the spiritual reality, and this world as being a reflection of those things above/within. What Freud or Jung might call 'archaic remnants' I would recognize as the real real..... as spiritual existence and very much in line with the new testament view of heaven-- absent from the body and present with the Lord. God is spirit.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's look at the heavenly realm specifically-- in this Time Before Land. How did we get into this mess? I mean-- it was heaven. What could go wrong?

Well..... according to scripture-- someone -- a shining one, an elohim (spiritual being) became prideful and imagined himself to be like God and God took exception. The consequence was to be removed from His presence-- seperated, suspended, banned-- in Forumesque. Ezekiel 28 gives a glimpse as does Isaiah 14-- but we are really talking about the conditions that preceded Genesis 3-- and that serpent in the garden. The garden was heavenly (above) and earthly (below) one-- a reflection of the other. And that consequence spoken of was the banishment.

Everything that follows is a result. We have to return to the garden of God. Back home-- to the Father. This is the message Jesus brought. This is the good news-- that there is a way.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
587
421
63
44
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Immaterial and incorporeal. Those are the answers to both of your rhetorical sets.

Which is worse? A serial killer who suffocates victims in their sleep, or a serial killer who mutilates? --- does it matter, the morning after?
Yes, the one who tortures their victim before killing them is worse.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,614
2,593
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Following this premise I've laid out so far, the elohim are divine beings-- spirits in and from the heavenly (spiritual) realm and as scripture stipulates these are the true offspring of God- the Father (who shall remain nameless)----- Spirit gives birth to spirit, only and always. Never flesh.

Flesh gives birth to flesh-- only and always. The flesh comes first, then the spirit is breathed into it like filling a container. That might not be familiar, but that is scriptural.

It was these elohim that fell and were given over to their passions and who became captivated and captive -- the creators captive to the idol creations they had made as likenesses of themselves. It was for the love of the world, that the first man was given the breath of life from above (the spirit) and that man was made Lord of all the earth. Adam.