A Time Before Land-- looking back.... A New Adventure Series with Mr E

[Mr E]

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men. (Book of Enoch, Chapter 6:1-2)

Wait a minute! That's from Moses-- in Genesis 6:1-2>>>

When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were bor to them, the sons of the elohim saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.

Where do you think Moses got it from? There really was a book of Enoch and interestingly-- it only shows up in places where the librarians don't have a vested interest in "disappearing" it. Places like Ethiopia, that are isolated. Alexander the Great in 300 BC mentions a book in India from before the time of Abraham. Fragments from the Book of Enoch were found preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls and it is mentioned in scripture. It's not any kind of stretch to think that it has survived from then until now in these instances and much less of a stretch to think that Abraham's great grandfather- Noah wouldn't have packed it into the ark with him. From Abraham to Moses is just a span of only around 500 years. I don't particularly care how anyone thinks about it. The book was real and we work with what we got. There is ample evidence that proves that what we have is ancient, and authentic to the degree that we can know it's not a modern forgery as some are sure to suggest. They were discussing and debating and reading the Book of Enoch in antiquity-- writers of scripture quoting and referencing it and councils were already pulling out their hair over it as early as 160 AD and then at Laodicea in the 4th century.

But it's the untouched 2000 year old testimony of the Essenes at Qumran that bears the greatest weight.

"Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he fathered Isaac. Isaac was sixty years old when he fathered Jacob. Jacob was sixty-five years old when he fathered Levi. He gave to Levi the Book of the Words of Enoch to preserve and pass on".

 

[Mr E]

Like I said-- it doesn't really matter what you think about it, the premise is recorded in both books--

The sons of the elohim in the heavenly realm became enamored with those images they had created. Particularly the female versions. If ever, there was a common ailment on earth as it is in heaven--- it's this one. Lust. Desire. Infatuation. Idolatry-- a focus and fixation on the created thing at the expense of the Father.

It's important to note that this is 'in the heavens' which is not intuitive. When we think of the things they made and the things they did we automatically think that it was heavenly beings doing things on earth. Not so. Not yet. All this in the heavens. And yes, among the elohim-- these creator offspring of the Father, there are some who get trapped through this love and admiration for all the things they created. It was they themselves who were constantly declaring everything they did-- as good.

And in the heavens there was one, whom we mentioned already as mentioned--

“‘You were the sealer of perfection,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.
Every precious stone was your covering,
the ruby, topaz, and emerald,
the chrysolite, onyx, and jasper,
the sapphire, turquoise, and beryl;
your settings and mounts were made of gold.

On the day you were created they were prepared.
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub;
you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked about amidst fiery stones.
You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created,
until sin was discovered in you.

The account in Ezekiel about this elohim, goes on about this one who came to think of himself as not 'a creator' but the Creator.

.....Because you think you are elohim-like

I threw you down to the ground;
I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
By the multitude of your iniquities, through the sinfulness of your trade, you desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I drew fire out from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth before the eyes of all who saw you.

Jesus said>>>

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Enoch was a source for Moses, but Moses was not a source for Enoch.

Enoch tells you of his grand adventures in spirit.... and all the things he was shown by the elohim. How he, in spirit-- saw God face to face and conversed with Him, not as a man-- but recognizing that as a man, he had a spiritual counterpart. A higher- him.

He explained it to his fellow men like this>>>

You, my children, you see my face, a human being created just like yourselves; I am one who has seen the face of the Lord, like iron made burning hot by a fire, emitting sparks. For you gaze into my eyes, a human being created just like yourselves; but I have gazed into the eyes of the Lord, like the rays of the shining sun and terrifying the eyes of a human being. You, my children, you see my right hand beckoning you, a human being created identical to yourselves; but I have seen the right hand of the Lord, beckoning me, who fills heaven. You see the extent of my body, the same as your own; but I have seen the extent of the Lord, without measure and without analogy, who has no end.

This is what it means to be a prophet. To discover that higher, spiritual version of yourself-- that see things more clearly than we do. While the “heavenly version” of Enoch is installed in heaven his “earthly version” is dispatched by God to the lower realm with the mission to deliver the handwriting made by the one who was translated to heaven.

God in heaven, instructs him like this>>>

And now, Enoch, whatever I have explained to you, and whatever you have seen in heavens, and whatever you have seen on earth, and whatever I have written in the books - by my supreme wisdom I have contrived it all..... Apply your mind, Enoch, and acknowledge the One who is speaking to you. And you take the books which I have written.... And you go down onto the earth and tell your sons all that I have told you.... And deliver to them the books in your handwriting, and they will read them and know their Creator.... And distribute the books in your handwriting to your children and your children to their children; and the parents will read them from generation to generation.

The word of God to Enoch. This heavenly elohim Enoch becomes an angel/messenger to the Earth.

Moses' story comes later.

Still following along. Waiting for Moses’ story.

 

[Mr E]

Still following along. Waiting for Moses’ story.

We already have Moses's story....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We already have Moses's story....

I would be in jail plenty of times for missing a dentist appointment! I use to avoid them like the plague.

 

[Mr E]

I would be in jail plenty of times for missing a dentist appointment! I use to avoid them like the plague.

The Law of Moses summed up in 45 seconds.

 

[Mr E]

I will say this, strictly FWIW: If there is one doctrine that resolves virtually all problematical analytical issues with mainstream Christianity, it is - yep - reincarnation. When one considers that reincarnation is one of the oldest and most widespread religious beliefs (uncannily so) and is supported by a fairly compelling body of evidence, I'm always surprised that most Christians are foaming-at-the-mouth opposed to the notion (almost entirely on the basis of Hebrews 9:27).

My informed guess is that some form of reincarnation (which may be nothing like we typically picture, with a linear succession of separate lifetimes) together with a very different notion of time than we typically have (again, a linear succession of moments) is probably close to The Answer. It may even mesh with Hebrews 9:27!

Do I insist this is what others must or should believe? Certainly not. But it does resolve the problematical analytical issues with mainstream Christianity that I find impossible to otherwise resolve in my own mind.

I can't remember the context, but in one of the forms of communication with the Other Side the questioners were complaining that all the Other Side ever seems to deliver are generic platitudes. They asked for something concrete, something real. They got only two words: RETHINK TIME. That has always stuck with me.

This is a topic worthy of a whole 'nother conversation. (I'll put it in my bucket)

 

[Mr E]

I'm gonna cut to the chase.

With Enoch's experience as source material for Moses-- it's pretty easy to see where he gets a lot of his ideas from-- OR, he has his own kinds of experiences that closely align with what Enoch records.

Incidentally, I've heard all the noise regarding the book of Enoch. I'm not insisting Enoch wrote it-- but it's certainly about him. Similar to the way the book of Job is about him-- there is no need for the person named as subject matter to have been the author. It's a telling of the story. I've never heard anyone insist that Moby Dick was written by the whale. Same goes for the book of Jonah. Not written by the whale. They used ghost writers.

First-- Enoch>>>

You, my children, you see my face, a human being created just like yourselves; I am one who has seen the face of the Lord, like iron made burning hot by a fire, emitting sparks. For you gaze into my eyes, a human being created just like yourselves; but I have gazed into the eyes of the Lord, like the rays of the shining sun and terrifying the eyes of a human being. You, my children, you see my right hand beckoning you, a human being created identical to yourselves; but I have seen the right hand of the Lord, beckoning me, who fills heaven. You see the extent of my body, the same as your own; but I have seen the extent of the Lord, without measure and without analogy, who has no end.

Then-- Moses>>>

Now when Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand —when he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to approach him. But Moses called to them, so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and Moses spoke to them. After this all the Israelites approached, and he commanded them all that the LORD had spoken to him on Mount Sinai. When Moses finished speaking with them, he would put a veil on his face. But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he would remove the veil until he came out. Then he would come out and tell the Israelites what he had been commanded. When the Israelites would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with the LORD. (Ex 34)

 

[Mr E]

Sorry-- this is moving slowly. I've been distracted with other things.

To catch up-- Moses is telling us a story in Genesis. It's a story that had been told many, many times before-- and his story, like those before him, contain certain elements common to all. When one encounters the God of heaven-- the encounter takes place where He is-- in the spiritual realm, for He is spirit and to see Him face to face, you have to be in spirit also. But how?

Enoch explains it best. There is you (the physical, flesh and blood -you), and then there is the real you-- and the real you is spirit. He describes it like this>>> You, my children, you see my right hand beckoning you, a human being created identical to yourselves; but I have seen the right hand of the Lord, beckoning me, who fills heaven. You see the extent of my body, the same as your own; but I have seen the extent of the Lord, without measure and without analogy, who has no end.

Above-- divine beings. Spiritual beings. The 'real' you.
Below-- the image. The physical container for the real you.

In the beginning, when God (elohim) created mankind-- a physical representation appeared, the way a reflection appears in a mirror or upon the still surface of the water.... and from this outward appearance, from the dust-- a likeness was made.

For simplicity-- the angels (elohim) above became so enamored with what they created- infatuated ---- consumed..... that the Father came to regret whole thing. One of the elohim-- Lucifer, by name--- considered the idea that he, himself was like the Father-- supreme, and as GOD. Pride was found in him, and like any loving Father would do, this son was disciplined for his arrogance. The punishment? God (the Father) let him go. He let him do what he wanted, and he let him suffer the consequences.

You think yourself a God? See how that works out. Go try it.

And just like that-- Lucifer was cast out and along with him, those elohim that followed with him--- and he fell. A spirit entrapped by the objects of their desire.... prisons of their own making..... caged in human cells. Contained.

 

[O'Darby]

Very similar ideas are found in the various "heretical" movements I've been studying. They were "heretical" only because Irenaeus, writing almost 200 years after Jesus, came up with the notion that his version of Christianity was the product of apostolic succession from Peter and the subsequent bishops while all the "heresies" were the Satanic progeny of Simon Magus as described in Acts. Alas, groups like the Valentinians had already claimed direct apostolic succession through Paul and a Pauline disciple named Theudas. Scholars agree that Irenaeus' list of bishops establishing his supposed apostolic succession is somewhat fanciful, as is his list of the "heretics'" supposed succession from Simon Magus. Basically, as far as I can tell, "orthodoxy" was simply another version of Christianity that ultimately prevailed via political intrigue and power.

I learned today that Clement of Alexandria and Origen made a distinction between what they called the Christianity "of faith" (and what I today might call literalist, inerrantist Bumper-Sticker Christianity) and what they called the Christianity "of wisdom" that looked beyond the simple literalist approach to the deeper mysteries that "heresies" like Gnosticism attempted to grapple with. Clement and Origen realized that simple-minded literalism was simply not sufficient for educated people who were inclined to think more deeply, and thus they attempted to grapple with the mysteries in a non-Gnostic (but sometimes quite "non-orthodox") manner. The "heretical" movements were successful and a genuine threat to Irenaeus' orthodoxy precisely because they were more intellectually and spiritually satisfying to many.

As with your thread here, I see nothing wrong with attempting to grapple with and make sense of the mysteries, even if the Bumper-Sticker crowd finds this threatening, objectionable or somehow "ungodly."

 

[Mr E]

And there you have it.

A race of created beings-- humankind. Each one a little jar of clay with a spirit inside. And not just any spirits. The ones inside are the banished elohim. The very sons of God who fell, along with Lucifer--- all of them imprisoned on earth.

And all this? A pre-Adamic mankind.

 

[O'Darby]

And there you have it.

A race of created beings-- humankind. Each one a little jar of clay with a spirit inside. And not just any spirits. The ones inside are the banished elohim. The very sons of God who fell, along with Lucifer--- all of them imprisoned on earth.

And all this? A pre-Adamic mankind.

Can we discuss UFOs now?

 

[Mr E]

It was awful.

How could it not be? Prideful, arrogant, self-seeking, flesh-loving spirits-- now manifest. Things go from bad to worse and God(the Father) lets it all play out. He lets 'nature' take its course.

And it would be easy to just sit back and watch them all destroy themselves and each other. Consumers consuming forever and ever.

But that isn't what He does with the world. He observes with compassion and He acts with mercy.

Because He loves the world He sends His son-- that whosoever believes in him should live forever, and suffer death no more. So He breathes His own spirit into these same containers where the imprisoned ones dwell, and there-- in a kingdom within these jars of clay-- one son does battle with the others.

To him who overcomes.......

 

[Mr E]

Can we discuss UFOs now?

Open for biz-- at WH.

 

[Mr E]

Mankind was created by the elohim called Yahweh as recounted in the Genesis story as told by Moses-- on Day 3 of creation. You can read it for yourself in Gen 2--

Where Genesis 1 was vague, (elohim)-- Genesis 2 is very specific (Yahweh elohim).

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created—when the LORD God made the earth and heavens.
Now no shrub of the field had yet grown on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. Springs would well up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

This specific Genesis 2 narrative happens on Day 3 and as such it precedes the Day 6 creation of mankind account.

A named elohim (Yahweh) forms a man from the soil of the ground and breaths into him the breath of life. A spirit from above. He's one of a kind. When Eve is created, she comes from a part of him-- she's strictly flesh and bone, scripture says. It's interesting, but it doesn't say anything about her being formed from the soil of the ground-- nor does it specify that she has this spirit (breath of life) breathed into her.

I'm not sure if anyone has ever noticed that--- but it's true. She isn't created the same way that he was. She isn't the same. While man is made in God's image, there is a distinction between him and her. The female counterpart was taken out of him, she was separated from him the way the land was separated from the sky and the water, the way darkness was separated from light, good from evil, spirit from flesh.

 

[Mr E]

Neither are any of those mentioned as having been created on Day 6 said to have had the breath of life (from above) breathed into their nostrils like the original man of Day 3. The Day 6 humans were modeled after the Day 3 man and his Day 3 counterpart- Eve, the female--- and similarly, the Day 6 humans were created- male and female, like the original Day 3 pair, but not exactly like them. The original pair came from a single being--- with one taken from the other. The Day 6 reproductions were created male and female from the start.

Why do any of these details matter?

Because of what happened next.

As it stands in this story-- we have a world created by the elohim (supernatural beings) and among those-- one elohim in particular (Yahweh) creates humankind-- a created being made in the image of himself. And Yahweh is the Chief elohim. Ruler of the assembly. First, and foremost. His creation is unique, for he breathed into it the breath of life -- the spirit-- (water from above) and while other elohim similarly made images of themselves, for themselves-- these humans had no spirit within them. They were empty vessels-- simply human souls (water from the ground) -- like shadows or reflections of their creators above- those elohim. They looked the same as the original pair, but they were not the same as the original pair.

Be fruitful and multiply! -Everything was good.

Until it wasn't.

 

[Mr E]

A family of men. Some would say a race of men, or mankind, or humankind. Male and female. An original-- one so loved, that his creator breathed into him the spirit of life-- the breath of life from above so that this one would be ben elohim. The son of a divine one, you could say. This first one had no human Father-- he was formed from the soil, and she was made from him. And of all the remaining family of man, none had the breath of life breathed into them from above. They were mere creatures (created ones) of earth.

But this beloved one-- this son of the Chief of that divine assembly-- similarly was LORD of all-- he was first and foremost on earth below as Yahweh was first and foremost in the assembly above. On earth as it is in heaven. The one below, like the one above was entrusted and in charge of everything-- over all the land, the plants, the garden, the animals (Day 4) and all the people (Day 6)- to guide, to grow, to produce fruit, to shepherd and to lead.... to keep everything alive. He was a likeness of the one above-- his creator.

There was no original intent beyond the joy of creating. The world was created and as part of the process, so was this likeness created. The likeness was made in the image of the elohim son, who as son was a likeness of the Father. The one below like the one above, but while in spirit-- spirit gives birth to spirit, on earth-- flesh gives birth to flesh. In this way- the man's flesh counterpart (Eve) became the mother of all the living-- all those who have the spirit (breath of life from above) within them. The likeness below was intended to be a caretaker, a caregiver and a custodian of all that he had been put in charge of, to protect and preserve and to produce-- to be fruitful and multiply.

And all those Watchers above, were so intrigued. It was so interesting to watch, to manipulate these 'clay figures' and to play-act with them, those Day 6 creations. They were not like the originals, and they were not entrusted with taking care of the earth, nor protecting and preserving it.... they thought 'to rule over it.' To tread it down, and subjugate it. Hardly the original intent. Most fascinating of all, most interesting of course-- most compelling-- was reproduction. Flesh coming together, and giving birth to flesh was an entirely captivating process.

 

[O'Darby]

A family of men. Some would say a race of men, or mankind, or humankind. Male and female. An original-- one so loved, that his creator breathed into him the spirit of life-- the breath of life from above so that this one would be ben elohim. The son of a divine one, you could say. This first one had no human Father-- he was formed from the soil, and she was made from him. And of all the remaining family of man, none had the breath of life breathed into them from above. They were mere creatures (created ones) of earth.

But this beloved one-- this son of the Chief of that divine assembly-- similarly was LORD of all-- he was first and foremost on earth below as Yahweh was first and foremost in the assembly above. On earth as it is in heaven. The one below, like the one above was entrusted and in charge of everything-- over all the land, the plants, the garden, the animals (Day 4) and all the people (Day 6)- to guide, to grow, to produce fruit, to shepherd and to lead.... to keep everything alive. He was a likeness of the one above-- his creator.

There was no original intent beyond the joy of creating. The world was created and as part of the process, so was this likeness created. The likeness was made in the image of the elohim son, who as son was a likeness of the Father. The one below like the one above, but while in spirit-- spirit gives birth to spirit, on earth-- flesh gives birth to flesh. In this way- the man's flesh counterpart (Eve) became the mother of all the living-- all those who have the spirit (breath of life from above) within them. The likeness below was intended to be a caretaker, a caregiver and a custodian of all that he had been put in charge of, to protect and preserve and to produce-- to be fruitful and multiply.

And all those Watchers above, were so intrigued. It was so interesting to watch, to manipulate these 'clay figures' and to play-act with them, those Day 6 creations. They were not like the originals, and they were not entrusted with taking care of the earth, nor protecting and preserving it.... they thought 'to rule over it.' To tread it down, and subjugate it. Hardly the original intent. Most fascinating of all, most interesting of course-- most compelling-- was reproduction. Flesh coming together, and giving birth to flesh was an entirely captivating process.

Go for it, @Mr E! You'll have to do an Executive Summary for those of limited attention spans.

It is interesting that virtually all of the supposed heresies and even some of the deeper Christianities wrestled with very similar issues and, beacuse the issues are not simple, ALWAYS ended up with theologies FAR more complex than Bumper-Sticker Christianity. It seems as though they all posited One True God who was an ineffable, unknowable Being above all the fray and then attempted to explain the heavenly host, humans and this world at a level below the One True God.

 

[Wick Stick]

I will say this, strictly FWIW: If there is one doctrine that resolves virtually all problematical analytical issues with mainstream Christianity, it is - yep - reincarnation. When one considers that reincarnation is one of the oldest and most widespread religious beliefs (uncannily so) and is supported by a fairly compelling body of evidence, I'm always surprised that most Christians are foaming-at-the-mouth opposed to the notion (almost entirely on the basis of Hebrews 9:27).

My informed guess is that some form of reincarnation (which may be nothing like we typically picture, with a linear succession of separate lifetimes) together with a very different notion of time than we typically have (again, a linear succession of moments) is probably close to The Answer. It may even mesh with Hebrews 9:27!

Do I insist this is what others must or should believe? Certainly not. But it does resolve the problematical analytical issues with mainstream Christianity that I find impossible to otherwise resolve in my own mind.

I can't remember the context, but in one of the forms of communication with the Other Side the questioners were complaining that all the Other Side ever seems to deliver are generic platitudes. They asked for something concrete, something real. They got only two words: RETHINK TIME. That has always stuck with me.

The New Testament shows some evidence that the early church was credulous of the Greek conception of Hades. Jesus' breaks down the 'gates of hell' to set captives free. That sounds like way more than a dirt-nap. There's a whole cosmology packaged into that little verse.

And if they had a Hades then that includes transmigration of souls, which is just a fancy name for reincarnation. The Greeks' Hades was an In-Between Place, not a Final Destination. Souls went there for judgment and then went on to... Tartarus, Elysium, Outer Darkness, or had their memory erased and were re-born into this world.

 

[Wick Stick]

And there you have it.

A race of created beings-- humankind. Each one a little jar of clay with a spirit inside. And not just any spirits. The ones inside are the banished elohim. The very sons of God who fell, along with Lucifer--- all of them imprisoned on earth.

And all this? A pre-Adamic mankind.

Suddenly scientology... why?