abomination of desolation?

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Randy Kluth

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... and yet you missed the AoD in our generation, -- in 1986?

You need more study.
Bobby Jo

I could always use more study. I do it every day, to some degree. I've been doing it for *a long time.*

I've noted that you seem to want to interpret biblical prophecy in the light of today's events? That can be a form of sensationalism, rather than actual interpretation. Much of biblical prophecy was pretty straight forward. For example, prophecies about the fall of Israel at momentous times in its history are plain. Prophecy of the Babylonian Judgment was plain.

But viewing the Antichrist as this political figure today, or seeing the 2 Witnesses as those 2 religious figures today, is another matter. It's very subjective, and not likely what God intended for us to do.

That being said, I believe that every single event in history, down to the smallest detail, somehow relates to biblical prophecy. I tend to go back to Nebuchadnezzar's Dream and to Daniel's Dream in the book of Daniel. That tells the wide scope of the story. We can fill in some of the details even in today's events around the world.
 
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quietthinker

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does anyone have solid scripture and or history, that defines what abomination that maketh desolate actually is?
It makes desolate ie, it kills......because of this it is an abomination. The lie masquerading as truth.
 

Keraz

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Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept My command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. This verse is paralleled by Rev 12:14 and Zechariah 14:2b, where a group of ‘elect’ people are taken to a place of safety, for 1260 days – the Great Tribulation period. This is a place on the earth, a place prepared by God, a place far away, of peace and security. It is false teaching to say Rev.3:10 is a ‘rapture’ of the church to heave

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises, he [the Anti Christ] will win over those who are ready to violate the covenant [Isaiah 28:14-15], but the people who are faithful to their God will be resolute and take action.

There are 2 groups of people in this verse, those who hold to their Covenant with God and those who are fooled by the Anti Christ. They are out of the Christian peoples, from every race. nation and language, who will have been living in the holy Land, ever since they settled there after the entire area is cleared of its inhabitants during the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Those people who hold fast to the New Covenant and leave Jerusalem when the “Abomination of desolation” is set up, are taken to safety. The ‘many’ who sign and agree with this 7 year treaty with the Anti Christ, Daniel 9:27, are those who must remain in Israel. Revelation 12:17

Will Christian believers experience the Great Tribulation? Yes. The many millions of followers of Jesus Christ will be present on earth during that time of persecution. His angels will gather them at the Return of Jesus. Matthew 24:30-31

Matthew 24:21-22 For there will be great distress, such as never before. If that time of troubles were not cut short, everything would die, but for the sake of God’s chosen people, those days will be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 They are those who have passed through the Great ordeal, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These two verses make it clear that believers will be present during the Tribulation and many of them will be martyred for their faith. If some of God’s people were not present at that time, there would be no need to shorten it for their sake. What God promises is eventual deliverance for His people, for some through death, but not protection from experiencing trials. We must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10


In His prayer for the disciples, and for believers in general, Jesus did not ask for them to be taken out of this world – but that they would be protected from the evil one. John 17:15. But that divine protection does not abrogate the testing of those who wish to be true followers of God. Even today, all believers are tested, some by persecution – even to the death, and others in tolerant countries, by distractions and false teachings.

2Timothy 3:1-5 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful and arrogant, disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will hate all goodness, be violent and self important. They will love their pleasures more than God, having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
 

DPMartin

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I'd say you're making a malicious judgment against me, though you may be entirely sincere. It's a matter of debate, brother. But if you can't debate it without getting angry, we shouldn't even debate the matter.

you know, maybe you shouldn't post on web sites like this one.

how in the heck did you get that posting was some kind of attack, and how is it you see this as some kind of debate? WOW.
 

DPMartin

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Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Matt 24
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Dan 11:31
Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall place the abomination that makes desolate.​

These forces are the 'people of the prince to come' in Dan 9:26.

As someone else pointed out, the temple that is defiled is the body
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?​

2 Thess 2
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

Rev 18:23
and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.
that word 'sorcery' is the Greek 'pharmakia' which is related to our word for 'pharmaceuticals' - drugs. Drugs that deceive.

Watch for an army that is dispensing drugs in Mystery Babylon (the UN handing out vaccines in the USA).



you are aware that Titus did exactly was is stated in Luke 21:20 in 70 ad, right? Jerusalem was under siege until Titus' armies toke over the temple area then sacrificed pigs there which is a abomination to the Jews and then continued to destroy Jerusalem. first the abomination then the destruction. and since then gentiles have dominated the area until now though that dominance is being difficult for the Jews to remove. the world around them have a lot to say in what Israel can and can't do within their own nation.

it will be interesting what shall come to pass when the Jews try to make Israel Jewish only as far as citizenry.

the virus isn't what you may be thinking, though it is an opportunity for gov. to curtail personal freedoms and condition the masses. every catastrophe is an opportunity not to be wasted in the eyes of governments.
 
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Randy Kluth

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you know, maybe you shouldn't post on web sites like this one.

how in the heck did you get that posting was some kind of attack, and how is it you see this as some kind of debate? WOW.

You said:

"people like to argue what you can't prove incorrect because they have no real interest in the truth, only the winning of the argument and placing doubt amongst Christians."

Okay, I've re-read what you wrote and think I misinterpreted what you said about others as if you were directing it at me. Sorry if I did that!

So I will try this again. You said:

"the position you refer to in antichrist has been around for hundreds of years, you better get used to the idea that it will be around until proven by historic events to be incorrect. people like to argue what you can't prove incorrect because they have no real interest in the truth, only the winning of the argument and placing doubt amongst Christians."

In the early Church there were only a couple of Church Fathers who viewed the Abomination of Desolation as the Antichrist--Irenaeus and Hippolytus. For the most part, the Early Church Fathers recognized that Jesus spoke of his own generation when he said an army would gather around Jerusalem, and destroy both the city and the temple. He called it the Abominatio of Desolation.

As we get farther along in history, Christians have become more excited about the endtimes, and about the close of the age. It is not surprising that there is a tendency to view everything prophetic as "about Antichrist." We're all entitled to our opinions. We should just make certain that our opinions are based on language and context, and confirmed by historical scholarship.

What I don't want to do is accuse others of not being interested in the truth, or of having an interest in dividing Christians. But it's true--there are those. Sorry if I thought you were accusing me of that!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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abomination of desolation?

The “man” of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is, therefore, not an individual, but a composite “man,” a collective group, as the foregoing scriptures show, and this “man” was to continue after the apostles’ death and exist down until the time of the Lord’s presence.

The “lawlessness” that this composite apostate “man” commits is lawlessness against Jehovah God the Universal Sovereign. This “man” is guilty of treason. He is called “the son of destruction,” as was Judas Iscariot, the traitor who betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ and who was instrumental in bringing about his death. He, like Judas, is to be annihilated, sent into extinction forever. This “man” is not “Babylon the Great,” who also fights against God, for she is a woman, a harlot. However, since he carries on a religious rebellion against God, he is evidently a part of mystic Babylon.—Joh 17:12; Re 17:3, 5.

“The man of lawlessness” sets himself in opposition to God and is therefore a “satan,” which means “resister.” And, indeed, his “presence is according to the operation of Satan.” (2Th 2:9) In the days of the apostle Paul, there was “mystery,” or a religious secret, about the identity of this “man of lawlessness.” To this day mystery shrouds his identity in the minds of many persons, because his wickedness is practiced under the guise of godly devotion. (2Th 2:7) By his lying teachings contrary to or superseding, as it were, the law of God, “the man of lawlessness” sets himself up over Jehovah God and other ‘gods,’ mighty ones of the earth, and also against God’s holy ones, true spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ. (Compare 2Pe 2:10-13.) Since he is a hypocrite, a false teacher claiming to be Christian, he “sits down in the temple of The God,” that is, what such false teachers claim to be that temple.—2Th 2:4.

Paul speaks of “the thing that acts as a restraint.” (2Th 2:6) It appears that the apostles constituted this restraint. Paul had told the Ephesian overseers that after his going away wolflike men would enter in. (Ac 20:29) He repeatedly wrote admonitions about such apostasy not only here in Second Thessalonians but in many exhortations to Timothy. And he counseled Timothy to commit the things he had heard from Paul to faithful men who would be qualified to teach others. He spoke of the congregation of the living God as being “a pillar and support of the truth.” He wanted it built up as strongly as possible before the great apostasy blossomed out.—2Ti 2:2; 1Ti 3:15.

Much later, at the command of Christ, the apostle John was told to write, warning against sects, mentioning especially the sect of Nicolaus and speaking of false prophets like Balaam and of the woman Jezebel who called herself a prophetess.—Re 2:6, 14, 15, 20.

At work in apostles’ days. The apostle Paul said that the mystery was “already at work.” (2Th 2:7) There were those trying to teach false doctrine, some of these even disturbing the Thessalonian congregation, prompting, in part, the writing of his second letter to them. There were antichrists when John wrote his letters, and doubtless before that. John spoke of “the last hour” of the apostolic period, and said: “Just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists . . . They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”—1Jo 2:18, 19;

Following the apostles’ death, “the man of lawlessness” came out into the open with his religious hypocrisy and false teachings. (2Th 2:3, 6, 8) According to Paul’s words, this “man” would gain great power, operating under Satan’s control, performing “every powerful work and lying signs and portents.” Persons deceived by the operation of the composite “man of lawlessness” are referred to as “those who are perishing [literally, “destroying themselves”], as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.” The apostle shows that they “get to believing the lie” and they will all “be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2Th 2:9-12; see Int.) The judgment is therefore a condemnatory one. (Sin against the holy spirit).

This composite, hypocritical “man of lawlessness” is to be done away with by the Lord Jesus “by the spirit of his mouth” and brought to nothing “by the manifestation of his presence.” The annihilation of this wicked opposer of God will be visible, concrete proof that the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting and acting as Judge. He will not judge according to his own standards, hence the destruction “by the spirit of his mouth” evidently means in expression of Jehovah’s judgment against this wicked class of persons.—2Th 2:8; compare Re 19:21, as to “the long sword . . . which sword proceeded out of his mouth.”
 

DPMartin

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The abomination of Desolation (Awful Horror) was when Antioches took over the Temple and converted it to pagan worship - the State Religion - as described in Maccabees Bible Gatehway passage: 1 Maccabees 1 - Good News Translation

could be, but that was quite some time before Jesus mentions to look for it as Danial said. some one here mentions that the two abominations that make desolation in Danial are two separate events. not to sure about that, that theory could the use of scripture to fit the theory.
 

Heyzeus

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could be, but that was quite some time before Jesus mentions to look for it as Danial said. some one here mentions that the two abominations that make desolation in Danial are two separate events. not to sure about that, that theory could the use of scripture to fit the theory.

Jesus was well aware of OT scripture - and Maccabees is actually not that far removed from the time of Jesus as it goes into the period where the Romans took over .. mentioning Cleopatra and Ptolemy.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

OK .. so we have some clues -- this is something that is standing in the Holy Place - and Daniel is mentioned.

If we go to Daniel we find that during the time of Xerxes -- there are pagan Rituals - and presumably Idols set up in the holy place - daily sacrifices to these other God's being made.

The same thing happens during the time of Maccabees - and Jesus is saying that this will happen again .. which alludes to the Destruction of the Temple by the Romans.
 

DPMartin

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abomination of desolation?

The “man” of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is, therefore, not an individual, but a composite “man,” a collective group, as the foregoing scriptures show, and this “man” was to continue after the apostles’ death and exist down until the time of the Lord’s presence.

.”

for the record here Paul speaks of an individual
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

also like the rst of us who seek to know and be able to antisapate what we might have to experience in this life, Paul speaks of the dealing and conditions for christains in the age of roman empirors.


Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

its theory but its believed that Paul died one year before Nero, who we know to be a complete nut job, a true enemy of Christ with unlimited world power. also Caligula (37–41 ce) during Paul's life required his subject to worship him as a god and would present himself as a god in temples in the emperor. its also said of him that he cut the heads off of all the statues in temples and replaced then with his head, and its a known fact that he put out an edict to have his image placed in the temple in Jerusalem.

it doesn't make sense that guys like Paul and the rest would talk about what would happen 2000 years into the future when these events were happening during his life time.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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for the record here Paul speaks of an individual
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

also like the rst of us who seek to know and be able to antisapate what we might have to experience in this life, Paul speaks of the dealing and conditions for christains in the age of roman empirors.


Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

its theory but its believed that Paul died one year before Nero, who we know to be a complete nut job, a true enemy of Christ with unlimited world power. also Caligula (37–41 ce) during Paul's life required his subject to worship him as a god and would present himself as a god in temples in the emperor. its also said of him that he cut the heads off of all the statues in temples and replaced then with his head, and its a known fact that he put out an edict to have his image placed in the temple in Jerusalem.

it doesn't make sense that guys like Paul and the rest would talk about what would happen 2000 years into the future when these events were happening during his life time.

Many people believe this man of lawlessness is an individual, but this man of lawlessness began during the Apostles time and became more intense after the Apostles died and has continued down to our day. This man of lawlessness has existed for centuries so I don't believe the man of lawlessness is a individual. The scriptures say that in the last days which means during the second presence of Jesus Christ this man of lawlessness will be revealed. That doesn't mean this man of lawlessness hasn't been in existence but that people who have faith will be able to distinguish this man of lawlessness to be just that during that time. Those who have faith will be able to distinguish this man of lawlessness as part of the spirit of the antichrist.
 

quietthinker

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interesting how there is much talk of the law being done away with amongst those who espouse vision yet at the same time great flourishes are made on the man of lawlessness and in so doing admitting that lawlessness is a bad thing.

The logic....If the law has been done away with then no law (lawlessness) is not bad because it no longer exists.

This shot in the foot ensures one goes nowhere except in circles in ones own inconsistencies.
 
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Nancy

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for the record here Paul speaks of an individual
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

also like the rst of us who seek to know and be able to antisapate what we might have to experience in this life, Paul speaks of the dealing and conditions for christains in the age of roman empirors.


Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

its theory but its believed that Paul died one year before Nero, who we know to be a complete nut job, a true enemy of Christ with unlimited world power. also Caligula (37–41 ce) during Paul's life required his subject to worship him as a god and would present himself as a god in temples in the emperor. its also said of him that he cut the heads off of all the statues in temples and replaced then with his head, and its a known fact that he put out an edict to have his image placed in the temple in Jerusalem.

it doesn't make sense that guys like Paul and the rest would talk about what would happen 2000 years into the future when these events were happening during his life time.

This trips me up so much. Nero himself could be considered at the very least, "an" antichrist. As well as many who have followed him, like Hilter, and those like him. This seems such an important thing- considering all that was written in Matthew 24- for Christians to have down pat! But then again my thoughts go to, He knows who are His and His sheep know HIS voice. A tough theological web, IMO.
 
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Bobby Jo

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... A tough theological web, IMO.

Ummmmmmmm, some thought the parables were indecipherable (including the DISCIPLES), and some think the a/c = 666 is indecipherable (including the CHURCH), -- but they're both understandable exactly as intended! :)


Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

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... If we go to Daniel we find that during the time of Xerxes...

... you get LIES. And they're LIES because the angel said as much in 12:4 & 9.

Perhaps you should consider MODERN JEWISH HISTORY, -- or not.
Bobby Jo
 

Heyzeus

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... you get LIES. And they're LIES because the angel said as much in 12:4 & 9.

Perhaps you should consider MODERN JEWISH HISTORY, -- or not.
Bobby Jo

So you are saying that Daniel is Lies ? don't get your drift mate .. nor your coded numbering system ..

A Puzzle ?
 

Bobby Jo

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I could always use more study. I do it every day, to some degree. I've been doing it for *a long time.*
It ain't the duration, it's the inspiration.

I've noted that you seem to want to interpret biblical prophecy in the light of today's events? That can be a form of sensationalism, rather than actual interpretation.
Tell that to the angel in 12: 4 & 9. I'm sure he'll see things your way once you explain it to him.

... viewing the Antichrist as this political figure today, or seeing the 2 Witnesses as those 2 religious figures today, is another matter. It's very subjective, and not likely what God intended for us to do.
It certainly isn't what YOU intended for us to do. But if GOD didn't, then HE wouldn't have given us the information.

... I tend to go back to Nebuchadnezzar's Dream and to Daniel's Dream in the book of Daniel. ...
BOTH which your butcher.


If Bible Prophecy isn't for TODAY, then it doesn't exist.
Bobby Jo
 
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Bobby Jo

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So you are saying that Daniel is Lies ? ...
... Dan. Chapter 12, verses 4 & 9 -- 12:4 & 9


Simple question, -- How many kingdoms in Dan. 2?

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4.a. Iron, Roman
4.b. Clay, Revived Roman -- or some variation --

AGREED?
Bobby Jo
 
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