ABOUT BAPTISM

[BreadOfLife]

Bishop means elder or preacher in the Bible. They served at the will on the congregation.

The books of the Bible were circulated and accepted from the time of the writing of the letters.

Catholicism argued over authenticity.

The Bible as shown in the NIV and the NASB is what was always accepted by believers, not the Catholic Bibles.

House churches still exist today, mostly non-denominational and more solidly Biblical.

There is no office higher than local church elder/pastor.

More ignorant nonsense . . .

A Bishop was an "Overseer', not simlly a preacher.
It is the very definition of the word, Episkopos . . .

 

[Dave L]

The Bible is SILENT on the method of Baptism. It only speaks of the formula (Matt 28:19).
We get the method from Apostolic Tradition (i.e., The Didache, A D 50).

It is silent of infant baptism and sprinkling instead of immersion in water.

 

[Dave L]

No - according to Scripture, history and linguistics.

I have direct quotes from scripture supporting my position. You do not.

 

[Dave L]

Dave if you would provide the scriptural references to back up your claims, instead of giving pithy responses, then people may be more accepting of your posts. Because you post so often with opinions, it is easier for us all to grab the bar on the side and slide down to the bottom of the page.

Again, I apologize for all my shortcomings.

 

[epostle]

House Churches

Also, the first churches: The earliest churches were essentially what we would call today house churches. They typically met in well-to-do Christian homes. You may recall, in Acts 16 the church in Philippi met in the home of Lydia, and we know the church in Ephesus met in the home of Aquila and Priscilla. As Christianity grew, some homes were actually renovated to serve as churches.
Archaeologists have discovered a renovated house church in the small city of Dura, in present day Iraq. It could accommodate about sixty-five or seventy people in the main assembly room. It actually had a separate room for baptisms, with an actual baptistery. In this case, it was probably not large enough for full immersion baptism, but probably something along the lines of pouring or sprinkling.
It was not until the late third or early fourth century that we find buildings actually erected for the exclusive purpose of Christian worship. By the fifth century, there are some fifty churches in Rome.


Bock, D. L., Cardoza, F., Cohick, L. H., Evans, C. A., Goheen, M. W., James, F. A., III, … Moo, D. J. (2016). NT176 The Gospel Message in the Early Church. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Your reference says nothing about any house church operating apart from the institutional historic Church. There were no buildings erected before the late third century because of severe persecution at this time, with Christians having their property confiscated by the pagan Romans. I can come up with the names of dozens of martyrs of this era, you can't come up with one, because your anti-institutional, anti-authority group of house churches did not exist. There can't be a "church" without a qualified overseer as this is clearly laid out in the book of Acts.
They were united by the Eucharist, not by dominating dictatorship.

 

[Dave L]

Your reference says nothing about any house church operating apart from the institutional historic Church. There were no buildings erected before the late third century because of severe persecution at this time, with Christians having their property confiscated by the pagan Romans. I can come up with the names of dozens of martyrs of this era, you can't come up with one, because your anti-institutional, anti-authority group of house churches did not exist. There can't be a "church" without a qualified overseer as this is clearly laid out in the book of Acts.
They were united by the Eucharist, not by dominating dictatorship.

House Churches

Also, the first churches: The earliest churches were essentially what we would call today house churches. They typically met in well-to-do Christian homes. You may recall, in Acts 16 the church in Philippi met in the home of Lydia, and we know the church in Ephesus met in the home of Aquila and Priscilla. As Christianity grew, some homes were actually renovated to serve as churches.
Archaeologists have discovered a renovated house church in the small city of Dura, in present day Iraq. It could accommodate about sixty-five or seventy people in the main assembly room. It actually had a separate room for baptisms, with an actual baptistery. In this case, it was probably not large enough for full immersion baptism, but probably something along the lines of pouring or sprinkling.
It was not until the late third or early fourth century that we find buildings actually erected for the exclusive purpose of Christian worship. By the fifth century, there are some fifty churches in Rome.


Bock, D. L., Cardoza, F., Cohick, L. H., Evans, C. A., Goheen, M. W., James, F. A., III, … Moo, D. J. (2016). NT176 The Gospel Message in the Early Church. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

2. Specific Designations of House Churches
a) Priscilla’s and Aquila’s House
Rom. 16:3–5; 1 Cor. 16:19
b) Jason’s House
Acts 17:5–7
c) Nympha’s House
Col. 4:15
d) Philemon’s House
Philem. 1–2


Elwell, W. A., & Buckwalter, D. (1996). Topical analysis of the Bible: with the New International Version (Vol. 5). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

The lengthy list of greetings to members of the Roman house churches serves to show the extensive personal contacts that Paul already enjoys with Rome. Paul clearly intends to send the message that he knows and is concerned about many members of the church.

Seifrid, M. A. (2007). Romans. In Commentary on the New Testament use of the Old Testament (p. 692). Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, UK: Baker Academic; Apollos.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is silent of infant baptism and sprinkling instead of immersion in water.

That's NOT true.

Isaiah's prophecy about Baptism talks about Sprinkling:
Ezek. 36:25-27
"Then I will SPRINKLE clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

As for Infant Baptism - that's where Apostolic Tradition comes in.
You can't show me ONE verse that talks about full immersion Baptism, either . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have direct quotes from scripture supporting my position. You do not.

I have trounced your position so many times already, it has gotten WAY past the point of being comical . . .

 

[Dave L]

I have trounced your position so many times already, it has gotten WAY past the point of being comical . . .

Only in your dreams.

 

[Dave L]

That's NOT true.

Isaiah's prophecy about Baptism talks about Sprinkling:
Ezek. 36:25-27
"Then I will SPRINKLE clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

As for Infant Baptism - that's where Apostolic Tradition comes in.
You can't show me ONE verse that talks about full immersion Baptism, either . . .

You are all hat and no cattle. Not one NT scripture supports your views.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are all hat and no cattle. Not one NT scripture supports your views.

And now you're just lying because you've been soundly defeated.
I just gave you one (Ezek. 36:25-27) - so how can you say I haven't??

 

[Dave L]

And now you're just lying because you've been soundly defeated.
I just gave you one (Ezek. 36:25-27) - so how can you say I haven't??

NT trumps OT.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only in your dreams.

Boy - you're a real glutton for punishment.
From Post #59 . . .

priest | Origin and meaning of priest by Online Etymology Dictionary
priest (n.)
Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin prester "priest," from Late Latinpresbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros.

bishop | Origin and meaning of bishop by Online Etymology Dictionary
bishop (n.)
Old English bisceop "bishop, high priest," from Late Latin episcopus, from Greek episkopos "watcher, (spiritual) overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" (see epi-) + skopos "one that watches, one that looks after; a guardian, protector" (from PIE root*spek- "to observe").

Episkopos and Presbyteros are NOT synonyms, Einstein . . .

 

[Dave L]

Boy - you're a real glutton for punishment.
From Post #59 . . .

priest | Origin and meaning of priest by Online Etymology Dictionary
priest (n.)
Old English preost, which probably was shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin prester "priest," from Late Latinpresbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros.

bishop | Origin and meaning of bishop by Online Etymology Dictionary
bishop (n.)
Old English bisceop "bishop, high priest," from Late Latin episcopus, from Greek episkopos "watcher, (spiritual) overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" (see epi-) + skopos "one that watches, one that looks after; a guardian, protector" (from PIE root*spek- "to observe").

Episkopos and Presbyteros are NOT synonyms, Einstein . . .

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” (1 Peter 2:9) (KJV 1900)

 

[BreadOfLife]

NT trumps OT.

WHAT???

The NT doesn't trump the OT - it FULFILLS it, Einstein.
WHO taught you this abomination??

The NT lies hidden in the OT - and the OT is REVEALED in the NT.

 

[Dave L]

WHAT???

The NT doesn't trump the OT - it FULFILLS it, Einstein.
WHO taught you this abomination??

The NT lies hidden in the OT - and the OT is REVEALED in the NT.

But the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. And you cannot support your position from the New Covenant.

 

[BreadOfLife]

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” (1 Peter 2:9) (KJV 1900)

And we've already been through this as well.
Don't you EVER learn?? From post #72:

EVERY SINGLE OT Type has an NT Fulfillment – without exception.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
1. Aaron, the High Priest
2. The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
3. The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
1. Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25),
2. The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
3. The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

 

[Dave L]

And we've already been through this as well.
Don't you EVER learn?? From post #72:

EVERY SINGLE OT Type has an NT Fulfillment – without exception.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
1. Aaron, the High Priest
2. The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
3. The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
1. Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25),
2. The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
3. The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just that Peter says all believers are priests.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. And you cannot support your position from the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is JESUS CHRIST - and what did HE say??
Matt. 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

You're fighting a LOSING battle here . . .

 

[Dave L]

The New Covenant is JESUS CHRIST - and what did HE say??
Matt. 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

You're fighting a LOSING battle here . . .

He fulfilled them and replaced them with the New Covenant.