ABOUT BAPTISM

[BreadOfLife]

This is the work of your denominational lobotomy. You need to read scripture for yourself.

No - this is yet another reason Luther wanted to REMOVE the Epistle of James - because it was a little too CATHOLIC for his tastes.
Looks like YOU are suffering from the same malady . . .

 

[Dave L]

No - this is yet another reason Luther wanted to REMOVE the Epistle of James - because it was a little too CATHOLIC for his tastes.
Looks like YOU are suffering from the same malady . . .

Luther had his problems too. But as I said, I have no denominational lobotomy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is the work of your denominational lobotomy. You need to read scripture for yourself.

Does James say to call for the Presbyters to pray over the sick person - or just one of the members of the congregation??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Luther had his problems too. But as I said, I have no denominational lobotomy.

No - you simply refuse to accept what is in Scripture.
Does James say to call for the Presbyters to pray over the sick person - or just one of the members of the congregation??.

 

[Dave L]

No - you simply refuse to accept what is in Scripture.
Does James say to call for the Presbyters to pray over the sick person - or just one of the members of the congregation??.

Pastor, Elder. and Bishop AND Presbyters are the same office in any local church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pastor, Elder. and Bishop AND Presbyters are the same office in any local church.

ANY local church??
WHO told you that lie??

 

[Triumph1300]

Quote:
Does James say to call for the Presbyters to pray over the sick person - or just one of the members of the congregation??.
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This is what it says in my bible:


Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

And elsewhere it says "Pray for one and another".

So, what's the big deal? Any born again Christian should pray for others.

 

[epostle]

Your ignorance does not mean independent churches did not exist. The monarchical bishops that morphed into the Institutional Churches didn't come with New Testament teaching. In the NT pastor, elder, bishop are synonyms.

For the second time, independent churches APART FROM APOSTOLIC TEACHING, did not exist. Out of the first 3-4 centuries of Christianity, you would think there would be some evidence, but you can't even come up with a singe name of a member of an anti-institutional church over several centuries. The Church was founded as an institution so why is "institution" such a bad word for radical Protestants?

The historic institutional Church is monarchical because it is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T, Microsoft, or the Mickey Mouse Club. The angel Gabriel speaks in ROYAL terms in Luke 1, using words like "throne of his father David", "reign over the house of Jacob", "his kingdom there will be no end.” Last I checked, a kingdom implies a monarchy. And a King implies a queen, the same as the Davidic Kingdom, where you distance yourself even further.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

The anti-institution, anti-authority, and anti-hierarchy mentality are the end products of division that St. Paul condemns.

 

[epostle]

Quote:
Does James say to call for the Presbyters to pray over the sick person - or just one of the members of the congregation??.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is what it says in my bible:


Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

And elsewhere it says "Pray for one and another".

So, what's the big deal? Any born again Christian should pray for others.

"Elders" means "priest", as various translations affirm, as any Greek dictionary affirms. Anointing with oil is not the function of any layman, there is no precedent in scripture. "Any born again Christian should pray for others" is absolutely true, but that is not the focus of James 5.
When James says, " let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him," he is not giving "how to" instructions. He is saying let them do what they have been doing all along. And Who do you think taught them?

Mark 6:13 – the apostles anointed the sick with oil and cured them. This is a sacrament of the Catholic Church instituted by Christ which heals us physically and spiritually.

James 5:14 – the presbyters (priests) are called to anoint the sick with oil and pray over them. Their sins are forgiven. This is the sacrament of the sick, also called extreme unction.

James 5:15 – during the sacrament of the sick, the priest’s prayer of faith will “save” the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up. The word “save” comes from the Greek word “sozein” which means an eschatological saving of life from death.

James 5:16 – James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, the "one another" that James is referring to, not any un-ordained believer.

 

[mjrhealth]

Without obedience, you cannot HOPE to be saved (Matt 7:21, 25:31-46, James 2:19) . . .

Well you see BOL you are not being obedient for obedience is faith, believing in the finished works of Christ not running after mens religions and doctrines.

 

[Dave L]

For the second time, independent churches APART FROM APOSTOLIC TEACHING, did not exist. Out of the first 3-4 centuries of Christianity, you would think there would be some evidence, but you can't even come up with a singe name of a member of an anti-institutional church over several centuries. The Church was founded as an institution so why is "institution" such a bad word for radical Protestants?

The historic institutional Church is monarchical because it is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T, Microsoft, or the Mickey Mouse Club. The angel Gabriel speaks in ROYAL terms in Luke 1, using words like "throne of his father David", "reign over the house of Jacob", "his kingdom there will be no end.” Last I checked, a kingdom implies a monarchy. And a King implies a queen, the same as the Davidic Kingdom, where you distance yourself even further.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

The anti-institution, anti-authority, and anti-hierarchy mentality are the end products of division that St. Paul condemns.

Most of the churches in Acts were independent of each other, meeting in houses. Each had pastors (elders, bishops, presbyters) all the same person or groups of persons. No visible institutional churches existed until the perversion of the ministry into monarchical bishops.

 

[Dave L]

ANY local church??
WHO told you that lie??

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers [Bishops], to shepherd [pastor] the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (HCSB)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well you see BOL you are not being obedient for obedience is faith, believing in the finished works of Christ not running after mens religions and doctrines.

Being disobedient is following the religious sects of men like YOU who follow the teachings of the man made online cult "aggressivechristianity.net" - with it's "Generals" in charge.

THAT is disobedience . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers [Bishops], to shepherd [pastor] the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (HCSB)

You can keep repeating yourself - but you'll STILL be wrong.
You've LOST this linguistic battle . . .

 

[Dave L]

You can keep repeating yourself - but you'l STILL be wrong.
You've LOST this linguistic battle . . .

I don't think so. Scripture uses pastor, elder, bishop and presbyter interchangeably in the home church model in Acts.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Most of the churches in Acts were independent of each other, meeting in houses. Each had pastors (elders, bishops, presbyters) all the same person or groups of persons. No visible institutional churches existed until the perversion of the ministry into monarchical bishops.

A totally false and ignorant statement.

There IS and always WAS only ONE Church. The use of the term "churches" in the NT simply refers to the different locales.
Today, we refer to them as dioceses and parishes - but they are ALL the same Church.

This is why Paul admonished his readers NOT to fall into independent factions (1 Cor. 3) - but instead to follow their EVERY TRADITION- whether is was by ORAL teaching or by a LETTER. He stresses that we are ALL part of ONE Body - in need of each other (1 Cor. 12).

Unfortunately, ignorant people like YOU have forgotten his warnings . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't think so. Scripture uses pastor, elder, bishop and presbyter interchangeably in the home church model in Acts.

And I've proven to you in several posts that you don't know what you're talking about . . .

 

[Dave L]

And I've proven to you in several posts that you don't know what you're talking about . . .

Post it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Being disobedient is following the religious sects of men like YOU who follow the teachings of the man made online cult "aggressivechristianity.net" - with it's "Generals" in charge.

THAT is disobedience . . .

See how the truth upsets those who dont walk in it. No highlighted text in mine, is there?? Yes you do follow after false doctrines these ones

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

do have a nice day.

 

[Dave L]

A totally false and ignorant statement.

There IS and always WAS only ONE Church. The use of the term "churches" in the NT simply refers to the different locales.
Today, we refer to them as dioceses and parishes - but they are ALL the same Church.

This is why Paul admonished his readers NOT to fall into independent factions (1 Cor. 3) - but instead to follow their EVERY TRADITION- whether is was by ORAL teaching or by a LETTER. He stresses that we are ALL part of ONE Body - in need of each other (1 Cor. 12).

Unfortunately, ignorant people like YOU have forgotten his warnings . . .

Most of the churches were house churches. Sometimes they met in a school or at a synagogue to witness. But without exception, house churches were the norm.