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Featured ABOUT BAPTISM

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by H. Richard, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Two places in the Bible that I do not feel support baptismal regeneration (water baptism necessary for salvation) are as follows.

    1 Pet 3:18-22

    18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
    19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
    20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
    21 and this water """symbolizes""" baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body [by water] but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. “””It saves you by the resurrection””” of Jesus Christ,
    22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand-- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
    (NIV)

    In verse 20 note the word is THROUGH water. Not a drop of water was put on Noah and his family because they were in the Ark..

    Verse 21 in the NKJV reads:

    21 There is also an “””antitype””” which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    (NKJ)

    At the end of verse 20, we read that, eight souls, were saved ""through" water. It is not that they were saved "by" water; they were saved "through" the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them. If the people in the Ark, left the Ark, they would have drowned in the water. Therefore it is obvious that the water was not salvation.

    To properly understand this statement in verse 20 and the verse that follows, we must see the typical meaning of the Ark and the flood. The Ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The Ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are "in Christ" (Romans 8:1-2, 2 Cor. 1:21-22, 2 Cor. 5:17) are as saved as God Himself can make them. Those on the outside could not be more lost.

    The water was not the means of salvation, for all who were in the water drowned. The Ark was the place of refuge and the only means of salvation. The Ark went ""through"" the water of judgment; it took the full brunt of the storm. Not a drop of water reached those inside the Ark. So Christ bore the fury of God's judgment against our sins. For those who are "in Him" there is no judgment (John 5:24).

    Actually, there is a baptism which saves us --- not our baptism in water, but a baptism which took place at Calvary almost 2000 years ago; Christ's death was a baptism (see Mark 10:38). He was baptized in the waters of judgment. This is what He meant when He said, "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished" (Luke 12:50). The psalmist described this baptism in the words, "Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls; all Your waves and billows have gone over me" (Psalms 42:7). In His death, Christ was baptized in the waves and billows of God's wrath, and it is this baptism that is the basis for our salvation; Christ's baptism unto death on the cross. Today the Holy Spirit baptizes us into His baptism on the cross. It is the Holy Spirit that does this, not man. That is what it means to be buried with Him. Our water baptism "represents" our identification with Him only. It does not save us.

    Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

    **** Scripture
    John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
    1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
    2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
    3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
    4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
    5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
    6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
    **** end scripture

    It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

    Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

    It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

    Context is everything. Nowhere in the conversation has water baptism been mentioned. In John 3, verse 6 we see the words "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. " There is absolutely no mention of water baptism. Only two things are under discussion, being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit.
     
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  2. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    The first 3 chapters of the Gospel of John are literally DRENCHED in the renewing waters of Baptism.

    - In Chapter 1, we see the Baptism of Christ. What is witnessed there??
    WATER and SPIRIT

    - Chapter 2, we are taken to the Wedding at Can where Jesus again uses WATER to perform His first miracle as He transforms it into wine.

    - In Chapter 3, we see the conversation with Nicodemus. YOU talk about context – so let’s read this in CONTEXT:

    John 3:1-10
    Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
    He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
    Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

    Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
    What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
    Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
    The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”


    Jesus was chiding him because he KNEW the prophecy about Baptism from Ezekiel 36:25-27 which says explicitly:
    I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
    I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
    I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.


    Nicodemus should have KNOWN this – and he should have understood what Jesus was talking about when he asked Him about being born AGAIN.
    According to YOUR interpretation – ALL unborn children will go to Hell because they were not born of water . . .

    As for 1 Pet. 3:21, your interpretation is also flawed. Peter is comparing how Noah and his family were saved through water.
    WHY was Noah saved?? Because he OBEYED God.
    WHY were the rest NOT saved? Because they DISOBEYED God (1 Pet. 3:20).

    Baptism is an act of OBEDIENCE. It SAVES us (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21) – not the water itself – but by submitting to what Christ did FOR us. This is at the CRUX of the 2nd chapter of the Epistle of James. Belief is NOT enough because even the DEMONS do that much (James 2:19).

    Unless you’re willing to DO what God wills – what Christ COMMANDS (Matt 7:21, James 14:26) – then you don’t have the slightest HOPE of being saved . . .
     
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  3. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

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    There is no James 14:26 or 4:26, unless it's written in a Catholic Bible!
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Physical birth has absolutely no bearing on the matter of regeneration. In fact when Jesus said "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" what He was saying is that the natural birth produces the natural man -- devoid of the Spirit of God, and having a dead spirit. So it is not even a question of "not enough". What Jesus was saying is "Physical birth is totally irrelevant to what I am revealing". That was in response to Nicodemus's naive question about a man returning to his mother's womb.

    Therefore "except a man be born of water" is not a reference to natural childbirth. "Water" here is a METAPHOR for the Gospel -- the Word of God, since "Spirit" is identified as "Spirit".

    Peter makes this perfectly clear in connecting the New Birth to the Gospel in 1 Peter 1: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
     
  5. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Born of water and Spirit ====== born of flesh and Spirit
     
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    “Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)
    Notice, receiving the Holy Spirit accompanies believing. Baptism of believers follows. So Baptismal Regeneration, whether you are Oneness Pentecostal, Lutheran or Catholic is not scriptural.
     
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  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    James 2:14-26 . . .
     
  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    This is why this statement is ludicrous - given the context of the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.

    Nicodemus wasn't asking Jesus about birth. He already knew about how a man is born.
    He was asking Jesus about how to be BORN AGAIN.

    When answering him, Jesus stated that unless a man is born of water AND spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    He DIDN'T say born of water and then of the Spirit. Nicodemus didn't need to be reminded about the water if all Jesus was talking about was amniotic fluyid.

    When Nicodemus asks Jesus HOW this can happen (John 3:9) - Jesus SCOLDS him by saying:
    “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?” (John 3:10)

    Nicodemus should have KNOWN the prophecy in Ezekiel about Baptism which says explicitly:
    Ezekiel 36:25-27
    I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
    I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
    I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.

    WATER and SPIRIT.
    It doesn't get ANY more explicit than that . . .
     
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  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to GOD, who inspired Ezekiel to write:

    Ezekiel 36:25-27
    I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
    I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
    I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.


    Once again - you espouse the false doctrines and precepts of flawed, sinful MEN instead of Almighty GOD . . .
     
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  10. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Jn3/num.19...water of separation..
    Ezk36:25-27
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    If you can provide one scripture directly supporting infant baptism, you win. But until then you teach false doctrine = a lie.
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    That's a cop-out because we're not talking about infant Baptism.
    We're talking about Baptismal Regeneration.

    Infant Baptism is another subject altogether - for which I am HAPPY to provide verses.
    However - YOU need to address what I have already presented regarding Baptismal Regeneration . . .
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    “Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)

    Holy Spirit received by all who believe.
     
  14. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    It is clear to me that there are only two things being mentioned in the conversation, WATER and SPIRIT at first and then Jesus clarifies the water is the flesh. You and, the rest, can believe what ever you wish just as I do. I refuse to argue about it. PEACE
     
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  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.

    What was the INTENT of the men being spoken of here??
    It was BAPTISM. They received a special message from an ANGEL of God. That's why they received the Holy Spirit.

    Even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19) - but they'll never receive the Holy Spirit.
    Believing is just the beginning - NOT the end.
     
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  16. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Actually those who believe receive the Holy Spirit baptized or not

    Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
     
  17. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Under grace, you know, that gospel that Jesus sent Paul to preach to the Gentile that did not include the commands under the Law of Moses. Under grace People are saved by placing their faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross. People can not be saved by what they do. Only faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross will save a person. Jesus paid for the past, present, and future sins of mankind but if a person rejects that payment they are not saved.
     
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  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Baptism of of CHRIST - not of the Law of Moses.
    Try again . . .
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Actually - that's NOT true . . .

    James 2:19
    You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the DEMONS BELIEVE that and tremble.

    Acts 8:35-38
    Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him. As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?” Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
     
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  20. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    It is true it just is the truth and you cant handle the truth, anything that opposes the lies of your religion you must destroy just like the devil.
     
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