Absolute Predestination:

[Dave L]

Knowledge and predestination have nothing to do with each other.

I know the sun will come up tomorrow. I have nothing to do with causing, ordaining, making it happen.






... a direct contradiction.

God CERTAINLY knows what will happen... and there is a sense in which He permits things.... one might even take it so far as to argue He grants the ability for it to happen.... but none of that has anything to do with WILLING, CAUSING, ORDAINING, MAKING it happen. Predestination = to cause. Foreknowledge = to know ahead of time. Presdestination includes foreknowledge, but not the other way around.

If God predestined Eve to eat of the tree, then by definition He willed, desired, caused and made it happen. And yes, He is thus to blame.

IMO, this is just the false, pagan GREEK concept of fate.... and it is not biblical or Christian.


And it seems to me that ELECTION in the Bible applies to JUSTIFICATION (narrow, initial) - not to everything. Did God CAUSE me to have a second cup of coffee this morning, He CAUSED that out of His predetermined will and desire? Yes, He knew I'd have a second cup... one can perhaps, maybe, even go to the extreme of saying He empowered me to do it, but did He CAUSE it, He entirely made it happen without ANYTHING from or in me? I think that's pagan Greek philosophy, not biblical theology. Now, did God CAUSE me to come to faith (or better put, did He GIVE me faith)? Yup. That's biblical.



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How can God be the creator of all if you create your destiny? And God only learns about what you decided to do and adjusts himself to it later? This denies that God is omniscient and omnipotent.

 

[Josiah]

How can God be the creator of all if you create your destiny? And God only learns about what you decided to do and adjusts himself to it later? This denies that God is omniscient and omnipotent.

1. Where are your Scripture that states God predestines EVERYTHING?

2. No, I said NOTHING remotely limiting God's foreknowledge or power. I simply pointed out the undeniable: Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing; yes predestination includes foreknowledge but not the other way around.

3. IMO, you are simply confusing Election with the pagan, Greek philosophy of fate. And the result is you make God the author and cause of sin, the Fall, Satan and every evil.... and man responsible for absolutely nothing.

4. Like so much of hyper-Calvinism.... the starting point is fine, but then here comes an FLOOD of illogical, absurd, philosophical leaps... not only often running head-on with Scripture (or at least being entirely without Scripture) but creating a horrible God and religion. Hyper-Calvinists seem unable to stop themselves (certainly not where God/Scripture does); they place ENORMOUS value on their ability to ask questions and the "answer" they themselves give to the question they themselves ask. As if questions are substantiation, as if the "answers" one gives self for the questions self asks is apologetics.

5. Yes. Jesus is the Savior and does the saving. Yes, God gives faith. All that is true and biblical. The rest of what you are saying is just IMPOSING the wrong, pagan philosophy of Fate and making God the bad guy and the only possible one to blame for every evil, wrong and sin.



- Josiah



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[Dave L]

1. Where are your Scripture that states God predestines EVERYTHING? And if that's true, God is the absolute cause of Satan's fall, of Adam's fall, of every sin we commit.

2. No, I said NOTHING remotely limiting God's foreknowledge or power. I simply pointed out the undeniable: Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing; yes predestination includes foreknowledge but not the other way around.

3. IMO, you are simply confusing Election with the pagan, Greek philosophy of fate. And the result is you make God the author and cause of sin, the Fall, Satan and every evil.... and man responsible for absolutely nothing.

4. Like so much of hyper-Calvinism.... the starting point is fine, but then here comes an FLOOD of illogical, absurd, philosophical leaps... not only often running head-on with Scripture (or at least being entirely without Scripture) but creating a horrible God and religion.

5. Yes. Jesus is the Savior and does the saving. Yes, God gives faith. All that is true and biblical. The rest of what you are saying is just IMPOSING the wrong, pagan philosophy of Fate and making God the bad guy and the only possible one to blame for every evil, wrong and sin.



- Josiah



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“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11) (KJV 1900)

All things? or all things except (fill in the blank) ....?

 

[Josiah]

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11) (KJV 1900)

All things? or all things except (fill in the blank) ....?

1. Interesting coming from a Calvinist who INSIST that "all" means "few" but moving on....


2. The context here is justification. Read the text.... tell me what tells you this is about EVERYTHING (including my second cup of coffee and my son falling down last night and hurting himself)...

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

The chapter is written to believers (the "us" are Christians) and the context is justification.

I think it is obvious that "all things" here means "all things in our justification." Show us how Paul is ACTUALLY saying God willed, caused and MADE my son fall down and hurt himself; where does the verse so teach?

I'll ask again, where is the verse that teaches that God predestines EVERYTHING (primary will, causes, makes happen, is the sole reason for)?


3. IMO, you are simply confusing Election with the pagan, Greek philosophy of fate. And the result is you make God the author and cause of sin, the Fall, Satan and every evil.... and man responsible for absolutely nothing. And I think you are illogically assuming that if something is true in Justification, ergo it's true in EVERYTHING.


4. Like so much of hyper-Calvinism.... the starting point is fine, but then here comes an FLOOD of illogical, philosophical leaps... often running head-on with Scripture (or at least being entirely without Scripture) and also creating a horrible God and religion. Hyper-Calvinists seem unable to stop themselves (certainly not where God/Scripture does); they place ENORMOUS value on their ability to ask questions and the "answer" they themselves give to the question they themselves ask. As if questions are substantiation, as if the "answers" one gives self for the questions self asks is apologetics.


5. Yes. Jesus is the Savior and does the saving. Yes, God gives faith. All that is true and biblical. The rest of what you are saying is just IMPOSING the wrong, pagan philosophy of Fate and making God the bad guy and the only possible one to blame for every evil, wrong and sin.


Thank you.


- Josiah



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