Absolute Predestination:

[Stumpmaster]

And if they(those not chosen) had something to do with not being chosen of God...then what? Do we have our reason (why us and not them) that makes sense?

Well, VIJ, I tend to avoid butting heads in Calvinism (No freewill) versus Arminianism (Some freewill) debates which is where discussions about God choosing some and not others tend to gravitate.
I'm quoting myself from previous discussions here in a sort of "cut to the chase" answer to your question:
"In essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives."

Agree.

 

[bbyrd009]

That implies I had something to do with God choosing me when I didn’t.

Return to Me, and I will return to you?

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings." Micah 3:2-4

i would review your premise fwiw, maybe look at this "God chose me" thing, and

Do we have our reason (why us and not them) that makes sense?

no kidding

 

[bbyrd009]

But who can hear it?

Nihilism is not going to cut it Scott, it amounts to another way to abdicate responsibility
it's a clever way to believe the devil made you do it imo

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Return to Me, and I will return to you?

The dilemma of man in the Old Testament. “Return to me, and I will return to you.” ...was there a way to return to God yet?

John 14:3-6
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. [4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. [5] Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? [6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So no man returns to the Father except by Christ. “return to Me and I will return to you.”

John 6:44
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:31-32
[31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. [32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 3:17
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:

Luke 1:78-79
[78] Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, [79] To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

“...To give light to them that sit in darkness” ...who does that? Rather then to give light to those in the light...God (Who delights in Mercy)gives light to those that sit in darkness that they might see the way(Christ) and follow it.

 

[bbyrd009]

So no man returns to the Father except by Christ. “return to Me and I will return to you.”

yet the two instances of the v are both OT, hmm

“...To give light to them that sit in darkness” ...who does that? Rather then to give light to those in the light...God (Who delights in Mercy)gives light to those that sit in darkness that they might see the way(Christ) and follow it.

the point there was to show that this perspective of "i don't do anything, God does everything" can be taken too far?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

yet the two instances of the v are both OT, hmm

the point there was to show that this perspective of "i don't do anything, God does everything" can be taken too far?

I’m not sure what you see here? What is the disagreement? Do you believe they could have returned to the Father in the OT and He returned to them? Was there a way for reconciliation to happen between man and God?

 

[charity]

I don’t think it is the Gardner’s fault. That is not what I meant to imply at all, but rather...possibly...we need to be careful in saying God had foreknowledge a person would reject Him and He had foreknowledged we wouldn’t reject Him and that is why He choose us over another. That implies I had something to do with God choosing me when I didn’t. And if they(those not chosen) had something to do with not being chosen of God...then what? Do we have our reason (why us and not them) that makes sense?

Revelation 17:15-17
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. [16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

I have followed this thread with interest, and happily find myself agreeing with so many points raised. I have also enjoyed the interplay (between you and I) in other threads.

I believe that it was because God foreknew that we would believe, that He predetermined us for the calling into which we have been called. Yet, because my mind finds this whole concept tricky, I could be wrong.

I am just grateful that He has saved me by His grace.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you believe they could have returned to the Father in the OT and He returned to them?

man, i have to, the vv are OT? And the Lamb was slain, um, before Jesus was, this pov of a new thing is really a really old thing imo, just forgotten. Love your neighbor as yourself is not the new part i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

because my mind finds this whole concept tricky

those passages are a trick imo, an oracle trap

 

[VictoryinJesus]

man, i have to, the vv are OT? And the Lamb was slain, um, before Jesus was, this pov of a new thing is really a really old thing imo, just forgotten. Love your neighbor as yourself is not the new part i guess

The Lamb slain before the foundation ... yes. And we (those of His body) were created in Christ(Ephesians 2:10). So when Christ said “you have been with me from the beginning” ...It is true: “I know those that are mine.” created in the Son from the beginning. But He (the Son)was not yet manifested(seen) to take away sins of the world. Completed from the beginning but not yet seen...Faith.

Man apart from God could not love his neighbor as he loves himself because Romans 3:16-17 says, “Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known:”

But a way Opened, a door...that door is Christ. You said “I don’t have to do anything” is taken too far. But there is something we do and that is to listen to what God says(and doing it). Listening is sometimes nearly impossible when the world is always whispering something different. God’s message is radical. revolutionary(involving or causing dramatic change.) Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[ScottA]

Nihilism is not going to cut it Scott, it amounts to another way to abdicate responsibility
it's a clever way to believe the devil made you do it imo

Ugh, another 'ism. But it is your opinion that is not going to cut it - not yours and not mine, but the truth from God only.

 

[amadeus]

... it amounts to another way to abdicate responsibility
it's a clever way to believe the devil made you do it imo

If the devil ever made me do anything then it looks to me as if I must be the devil. Is this the true identity of the "old man"?

 

[Zachary]

I believe that it was because God foreknew that we would believe,
that He predetermined us for the calling into which we have been called.

But, don't you believe that He must give us "a seed of faith"
so that we would be able to believe?
There are many NT verses which teach us:
- man has an inherited sin nature
- man is a captive prisoner of Satan
- man's mind has been blinded by Satan
- man sees the gospel as foolishness
etc.
There is absolutely no way that man can (on his own) can choose to believe the gospel.
Many NT verses talk about believers having been chosen and called.
But, they think they were chosen because they chose to believe!
NO! ... Jesus said, "You didn't choose Me, I chose you."
.

 

[charity]

But, don't you believe that He must give us "a seed of faith"
so that we would be able to believe?
There are many NT verses which teach us:
- man has an inherited sin nature
- man is a captive prisoner of Satan
- man's mind has been blinded by Satan
- man sees the gospel as foolishness
etc.
There is absolutely no way that man can (on his own) can choose to believe the gospel.
Many NT verses talk about believers having been chosen and called.
But, they think they were chosen because they chose to believe!
NO! ... Jesus said, "You didn't choose Me, I chose you."
.

'For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God
in the face of Jesus Christ.'
(2 Corinthians 4:6)

Hello there, @Zachary,

With respect, Psalm 119:130 tells us that the entrance of His Word brings light. John 1:9 also tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the true light, '... lighteth every man that cometh into the world'. In John 8:12 the Lord Jesus Christ says, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.'

In Romans chapter one, Paul makes plain that the things of God are clearly seen in the things that He has made. That the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork, so that man is without excuse. We are also told that He ''rewardeth them that diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).

God has foreknowledge, and knows already those who will believe on Him, therefore He is able to predestinate them 'to be conformed to the image of His Son.' (Romans 8:29-30).

You mention the words, 'I have chosen you', found in John 15:16 & 19, spoken by our Lord to His disciples. This has to be kept within it's context, with note taken to whom the words were spoken, and why.

Thank you.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

 

[charity]

'That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not.
He came unto His own,
and His own received him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.'
(John 1:9-13)

Hello @Zachary,

This morning I was considering the words, 'every man', in John 1:9, which relates to every man without distinction of race. This was not the case prior to this, for as you know Israel had the true light - the Shechinah or presence of Jehovah. In John 1:9, John announces that this distinction was to be done away: and every man (ie., all to whom the Son should reveal the Father, [Matthew 11:25,26]. would be enlightened. Therefore this refers to every man who is enlightened by Christ.

The same thing applies to John 12:32, where the Lord Jesus Christ says, 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me' (ie., all without distinction) This is obviously not without exception, for both fact and experience witness to the fact that all will not be drawn to Him. No: again this word, 'all', refers to all men without distinction of race, as distinguished from the one nation, Israel, which had previously been the partaker of Divine favour. All who are enlightened by Christ.

I Timothy 2:4, also has the same message to give, 'Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' For a new dispensation of God was now in place: salvation was no longer confined to the Jew (John 4:22); but was extended to people out of all tongues, nations and peoples.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Zachary]

Thank you. Within the love of Christ our Saviour. Chris

Hi Chris,
I do appreciate your take on this!
However, I don't see your verses as pertaining to a person believing unto salvation.
I see them as referring to further insight into spiritual Truths.
Many people have said that Jesus' words generally were spoken to everyone.
For sure, John 14 through John 16 were teachings for everyone,
e.g. the coming of "another" like Himself (the Holy Spirit), both of whom are God.

 

[Zachary]

'That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

My current favorite, the NLT, has ...
"The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world."
IMO, this is about Jesus bringing the light of spiritual Truth to everyone in the world.
I.E. He and His words are the light of the world, regardless of anyone accepting them.

The "all" is troublesome.
Many think Jesus means all ethnic groups.
Also, God's desire is that all men could be saved ...
but, alas, He doesn't choose and call everyone.
For whatever reason, okay?

"No one can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father
who sent Me draws him/her." (John 6:44)

 

[amadeus]

'That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not.
He came unto His own,
and His own received him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.'
(John 1:9-13)

Hello @Zachary,

This morning I was considering the words, 'every man', in John 1:9, which relates to every man without distinction of race. This was not the case prior to this, for as you know Israel had the true light - the Shechinah or presence of Jehovah. In John 1:9, John announces that this distinction was to be done away: and every man (ie., all to whom the Son should reveal the Father, [Matthew 11:25,26]. would be enlightened. Therefore this refers to every man who is enlightened by Christ.

The same thing applies to John 12:32, where the Lord Jesus Christ says, 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me' (ie., all without distinction) This is obviously not without exception, for both fact and experience witness to the fact that all will not be drawn to Him. No: again this word, 'all', refers to all men without distinction of race, as distinguished from the one nation, Israel, which had previously been the partaker of Divine favour. All who are enlightened by Christ.

I Timothy 2:4, also has the same message to give, 'Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' For a new dispensation of God was now in place: salvation was no longer confined to the Jew (John 4:22); but was extended to people out of all tongues, nations and peoples.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

The "light" which lighteth every man [John 1:9] is that which attracts us all, and this relates to the "many are called" of Matt 24:14.

But few are chosen because so few choose to work or strive or seek that Light. David heard God on this as well the face being the same Light:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

And the wise men also saw the Light and also sought it, following its brightness:

"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him." Matt 2:1-2

And the Apostle Paul clarifies what is happening among believers now:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Some few have continued to followed the Light so as to approach it more closely... to see Him face to face.

 

[Josiah]

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge.

Knowledge and predestination have nothing to do with each other.

I know the sun will come up tomorrow. I have nothing to do with causing, ordaining, making it happen.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin

... a direct contradiction.

God CERTAINLY knows what will happen... and there is a sense in which He permits things.... one might even take it so far as to argue He grants the ability for it to happen.... but none of that has anything to do with WILLING, CAUSING, ORDAINING, MAKING it happen. Predestination = to cause. Foreknowledge = to know ahead of time. Presdestination includes foreknowledge, but not the other way around.

If God predestined Eve to eat of the tree, then by definition He willed, desired, caused and made it happen. And yes, He is thus to blame.

IMO, this is just the false, pagan GREEK concept of fate.... and it is not biblical or Christian.


And it seems to me that ELECTION in the Bible applies to JUSTIFICATION (narrow, initial) - not to everything. Did God CAUSE me to have a second cup of coffee this morning, He CAUSED that out of His predetermined will and desire? Yes, He knew I'd have a second cup... one can perhaps, maybe, even go to the extreme of saying He empowered me to do it, but did He CAUSE it, He entirely made it happen without ANYTHING from or in me? I think that's pagan Greek philosophy, not biblical theology. Now, did God CAUSE me to come to faith (or better put, did He GIVE me faith)? Yup. That's biblical.



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