Actually Jesus returns twice...

[CrowCross]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

 

[Marty fox]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

1 Thessalonians is the second coming

Revelation 19 doesn’t mention Jesus coming to the earth, He is only shown up in heaven, it is a symbolic for judgement from the sword of Jesus mouth His word

Mathew, Mark and Luke are coming in judgements

Jesus said that when He returns it will be with His angels and He will separate people and it will be the final judgement day

 

[CrowCross]

1 Thessalonians is the second coming

I see 1 Thes 4 as the resurrection/rapture pre-trib event.
In a sense 1 Thes 4:16 is part of the second coming with the second coming completed at the end of the rapture with Jesus on the white horse this time. (Rev 19)

Revelation 19 doesn’t mention Jesus coming to the earth, He is only shown up in heaven, it is a symbolic for judgement from the sword of Jesus mouth His word

Sure it does...
The way I see it... the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses....where are they following Jesus to? I answer that question as Earth. How do you answer that question? In Rev 19 Jesus is said to..."strike down the nations"...Though I believe there are nations in heaven, it appears nations on earth are what is in mind.
In verse 19 we see this description...19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. I see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse all over this passage.

I believe Zech 14 :4 describes Jesus "touch down" ...4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Mathew, Mark and Luke are coming in judgements

Jesus said that when He returns it will be with His angels and He will separate people and it will be the final judgement day

Yes, the white horse coming.

 

[Marty fox]

I see 1 Thes 4 as the resurrection/rapture pre-trib event.
In a sense 1 Thes 4:16 is part of the second coming with the second coming completed at the end of the rapture with Jesus on the white horse this time. (Rev 19)

Sure it does...
The way I see it... the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses....where are they following Jesus to? I answer that question as Earth. How do you answer that question? In Rev 19 Jesus is said to..."strike down the nations"...Though I believe there are nations in heaven, it appears nations on earth are what is in mind.
In verse 19 we see this description...19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. I see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse all over this passage.

I believe Zech 14 :4 describes Jesus "touch down" ...4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Yes, the white horse coming.

How can 1 Thess 4 be the pre trib rapture when Jesus says that He carries out the judgement and separation when He returns?

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Matthew 25

The Sheep and the Goats​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Marty fox]

I see 1 Thes 4 as the resurrection/rapture pre-trib event.
In a sense 1 Thes 4:16 is part of the second coming with the second coming completed at the end of the rapture with Jesus on the white horse this time. (Rev 19)

Sure it does...
The way I see it... the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses....where are they following Jesus to? I answer that question as Earth. How do you answer that question? In Rev 19 Jesus is said to..."strike down the nations"...Though I believe there are nations in heaven, it appears nations on earth are what is in mind.
In verse 19 we see this description...19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. I see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse all over this passage.

I believe Zech 14 :4 describes Jesus "touch down" ...4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Yes, the white horse coming.

We follow Jesus now on earth its a figure of speech, we don't actually follow Him anywhere.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

If everyone is literally killed at one time, then who do we reign over?

Jesus doesn't have to literally come to the earth to destroy people, it's not a literal one-time battle, if no one knows when Jesus returns how can they be gathered to fight Him?

If satan knows He will be defeated, why would he even tey to fight Jesus?

 

[Marty fox]

I see 1 Thes 4 as the resurrection/rapture pre-trib event.
In a sense 1 Thes 4:16 is part of the second coming with the second coming completed at the end of the rapture with Jesus on the white horse this time. (Rev 19)

Sure it does...
The way I see it... the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses....where are they following Jesus to? I answer that question as Earth. How do you answer that question? In Rev 19 Jesus is said to..."strike down the nations"...Though I believe there are nations in heaven, it appears nations on earth are what is in mind.
In verse 19 we see this description...19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. I see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse all over this passage.

I believe Zech 14 :4 describes Jesus "touch down" ...4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Yes, the white horse coming.

Revelation 19 reads nothing like Zachariah 14

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

No, He absolutely does not.

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

No, there is obviously one return where two distinctly different things happen to people with believers being changed to put on bodily immortality and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and unbelievers being destroyed. You fail to understand that 1 Thessalonians 4:13:-5:11 all describes one event. Acts 1:9-11 says Jesus would return from heaven in the same manner He ascended there. Where does it say He would then go back to heaven and return again later? Nowhere.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

The "trib" in this case would be the wrath of Christ that He will bring down when He returns. How are you getting two different returns from this? He indicated that what will happen when He returns and some will be taken, meaning taken up to Him and the rest will be left, meaning left behind on the earth to be killed just as all who were left outside the ark were killed by the flood in Noah's day and all who were left in Sodom the day Lots and his family left Sodom were all killed on that day. You are not understanding that the rapture and Christ's wrath happen on the same time. That is what is taught in passages like Matthew 24:29-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Revelation 14:14-20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see 1 Thes 4 as the resurrection/rapture pre-trib event.
In a sense 1 Thes 4:16 is part of the second coming with the second coming completed at the end of the rapture with Jesus on the white horse this time. (Rev 19)

Sure it does...
The way I see it... the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses....where are they following Jesus to? I answer that question as Earth. How do you answer that question? In Rev 19 Jesus is said to..."strike down the nations"...Though I believe there are nations in heaven, it appears nations on earth are what is in mind.
In verse 19 we see this description...19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. I see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse all over this passage.

I believe Zech 14 :4 describes Jesus "touch down" ...4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Yes, the white horse coming.

Do you think Jesus will be literally riding a flying white horse when He returns with a literal sword coming out of His mouth? Revelation 19:11-21 is symbolic text. You can't say that it describes a different event than 1 Thessalonians 4 just because Paul doesn't reference Jesus riding a white horse. That's silly. Paul describes Christ's second coming literally while John described it symbolically. And, you can't say that one passage doesn't refer to the same event as another just because the two passages don't contain all of the same details. If that was the case, we could come up with at least 10 or 12 future returns of Christ. This is not how to interpret scripture.

 

[Marty fox]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

Matthew 24
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

The taken above isn't the rapture its taken in judgement, they were killed by the flood.

look at verse 39, the flood took them away.

In Noahs day it was better to be left behind and taken away

Jesus in Luke confirms this

Luke 17
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”