Adam and Eve, The True Adult Story

[marks]

the Curse of the Sinful Nature

I don't see this as being a curse in the Biblical sense. God cursed the ground, but God didn't curse Adam.

Eating from the tree needed no curse to bring death, it just did that. In Adam's death to sin, all humanity died in Adam. And so all humanity are born spiritually dead.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

And so all humanity are born spiritually dead.

Does any verse actually say this?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I don't see this as being a curse in the Biblical sense. God cursed the ground, but God didn't curse Adam.

Eating from the tree needed no curse to bring death, it just did that. In Adam's death to sin, all humanity died in Adam. And so all humanity are born spiritually dead.

Much love!

If you don't understand that their disobedience had an effect upon the minds of all humans, we will never agree on essentially anything in the Word of God. Surprising . . . I thought you were different.

 

[marks]

Does any verse actually say this?

Not in those words,

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My understanding is that in the same way that Levi is said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek, "being yet in the loins of Abraham", in this case, all of humanity being in the loins of Adam died when he died.

"For as in Adam all die."

That this death was spiritual death, dead in trespasses and sins, that we were "made sinners" by Adam's disobedient act, eating from the tree.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you don't understand that their disobedience had an effect upon the minds of all humans, we will never agree on essentially anything in the Word of God. Surprising . . . I thought you were different.

I'm sorry, I think there is some serious miscommunication going on here.

Certainly Adam's disobedience affected all humanity. But not as a curse from God. God cursed the ground, and that's one thing. Meanwhile, Adam died, and humanity with him, being in him, and so everyone who is born following Adam's disobedience in eating from the tree is born into the same spiritual death which Adam entered into.

And so instead of relating to God on a basis of the liberty which is found in innocence, mankind relates to God on the basis of what man understands about what God does and does not approve.

Before, man could do no wrong, because there was no wrong to do. Man would simply live his nature as given by God, without a moment's thought toward right or wrong. He was as right as everything else, and just did what he did.

Only in one thing was man given the choice, with a right and wrong, and a consequence. When Adam chose to eat, he got what God said he would get, the knowledge of good and evil, even as God knows there is good and evil.

This brought the fallen mind, which judges and condemns and excuses, and justifies and makes excuses seeking to excuse the unexcusable. The fallen mind who thinks to relate to God on the basis of being good enough, but that's not what humans are on their own.

Instead of following God's Original Plan without a contrary thought, now man's mind turns inward, and aside from this knowledge, the human conscience, imperfect at best, there remains a further depravity, in that we will always, inevitably, choose to do evil, what we know to be wrong.

Personally, I think we are born with a corruption in our bodies, something decidedly wrong with them, not as result of God's curse, rather, as a consequence of Adam's action. And I think that as we are brought up by our imperfect to say the least parents that this causes our brains to develop in a certain fashion which bends our choices in different directions.

Our own choices as we are growing up have a profound affect to, I think! Consequences of our actions all of that, but inevitably sin colors all of this, and so we are born in sin, raised in sin, and perpetuate our sin.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This is literally, as those that are alive from among the dead ones.

We are alive from the dead, but we are surrounded by the dead. And we are so used to our "dead mind" thoughts, we get confused, and start to let those thoughts occupy our minds. When we do, this is sin, not faith, faith is in the new mind, the new man.

When we allow the dead-mind thoughts to run through our brains, these will lead us to acts of sin, as fear leads one to steal, or lie, or whatever the specific thing happening.

Anytime thoughts are in our minds that don't conform to Jesus, aren't what Scripture tells is should be in our minds, we're to notice that, to ascribe them to the flesh, the ruined mind of a ruined body, and deny them. Instead cause our minds to think thoughts obedient to Christ.

Sorry for being so wordy!

But I'm hoping you understand me better.

Much love!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm sorry, I think there is some serious miscommunication going on here.

Certainly Adam's disobedience affected all humanity. But not as a curse from God. God cursed the ground, and that's one thing. Meanwhile, Adam died, and humanity with him, being in him, and so everyone who is born following Adam's disobedience in eating from the tree is born into the same spiritual death which Adam entered into.

And so instead of relating to God on a basis of the liberty which is found in innocence, mankind relates to God on the basis of what man understands about what God does and does not approve.

Before, man could do no wrong, because there was no wrong to do. Man would simply live his nature as given by God, without a moment's thought toward right or wrong. He was as right as everything else, and just did what he did.

Only in one thing was man given the choice, with a right and wrong, and a consequence. When Adam chose to eat, he got what God said he would get, the knowledge of good and evil, even as God knows there is good and evil.

This brought the fallen mind, which judges and condemns and excuses, and justifies and makes excuses seeking to excuse the unexcusable. The fallen mind who thinks to relate to God on the basis of being good enough, but that's not what humans are on their own.

Instead of following God's Original Plan without a contrary thought, now man's mind turns inward, and aside from this knowledge, the human conscience, imperfect at best, there remains a further depravity, in that we will always, inevitably, choose to do evil, what we know to be wrong.

Personally, I think we are born with a corruption in our bodies, something decidedly wrong with them, not as result of God's curse, rather, as a consequence of Adam's action. And I think that as we are brought up by our imperfect to say the least parents that this causes our brains to develop in a certain fashion which bends our choices in different directions.

Our own choices as we are growing up have a profound affect to, I think! Consequences of our actions all of that, but inevitably sin colors all of this, and so we are born in sin, raised in sin, and perpetuate our sin.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This is literally, as those that are alive from among the dead ones.

We are alive from the dead, but we are surrounded by the dead. And we are so used to our "dead mind" thoughts, we get confused, and start to let those thoughts occupy our minds. When we do, this is sin, not faith, faith is in the new mind, the new man.

When we allow the dead-mind thoughts to run through our brains, these will lead us to acts of sin, as fear leads one to steal, or lie, or whatever the specific thing happening.

Anytime thoughts are in our minds that don't conform to Jesus, aren't what Scripture tells is should be in our minds, we're to notice that, to ascribe them to the flesh, the ruined mind of a ruined body, and deny them. Instead cause our minds to think thoughts obedient to Christ.

Sorry for being so wordy!

But I'm hoping you understand me better.

Much love!

I can't possibly address all that you've written, so I'll let the Word explain it. However, I know that you are already aware of these verses . . . I doubt that I'll ever teach you anything you don't already know.

Romans 8:20-21 NKJV - "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Romans 8:20-21 NLT - "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay."

 

[marks]

I can't possibly address all that you've written, so I'll let the Word explain it. However, I know that you are already aware of these verses . . . I doubt that I'll ever teach you anything you don't already know.

Romans 8:20-21 NKJV - "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Romans 8:20-21 NLT - "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay."

"to God's curse" doesn't appear there, actually. The NLT is interpreting instead of translating in this place.

God didn't need to curse Adam with a sinful nature, Adam brought that on himself. God decreed that everything under the sun would be meaningless and futile, and we'd all just keep doing the same things over and over and for now REAL benefit! But God did this so we would come to know that whatever fulfillment we seek can only be found in Him.

Ecclesiastes lays this out in great detail.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Not in those words,

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My understanding is that in the same way that Levi is said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek, "being yet in the loins of Abraham", in this case, all of humanity being in the loins of Adam died when he died.

"For as in Adam all die."

That this death was spiritual death, dead in trespasses and sins, that we were "made sinners" by Adam's disobedient act, eating from the tree.

Much love!

No argument here. However, being sinners and being totally depraved are very different.

 

[marks]

No argument here. However, being sinners and being totally depraved are very different.

I'm thinking it depends on what is meant by total depravity. It's not Biblical terminology. If it means we can't do anything good or of benefit, I think we can. But I likewise think that nothing we do outside of Christ will be accepted by God as righteousness.

That we are totally depraved in that sin is universal, but we are still able to decide to trust in Jesus.

Much love!

 

[TLHKAJ]

Not even close! Seduction is a synonym for deceiving here. So it is an intellectual or emotional seduction, not a physical seduction.

When Joh wrote that Cain was of the wicked one- He meant in the heart and not the physical seed.

Satan will have a son one day, and Many Christians colloquially refer to Him as THE ANTICHRIST!

Agree 100%!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

"to God's curse" doesn't appear there, actually. The NLT is interpreting instead of translating in this place.

God didn't need to curse Adam with a sinful nature, Adam brought that on himself. God decreed that everything under the sun would be meaningless and futile, and we'd all just keep doing the same things over and over and for now REAL benefit! But God did this so we would come to know that whatever fulfillment we seek can only be found in Him.

Ecclesiastes lays this out in great detail.

Much love!

Like I said, we'll go round and round and we'll just spin our wheels. Below is a start for why I believe that the minds of humans sustained Evil thinking . . . brought on by the Plan of God.

Proverbs 3:33 NIV - "The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous."

Lamentations 3:65 NKJV - "Give them a veiled heart; Your curse be upon them!"

Galatians 3:10 NLT - "But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law."

Galatians 3:22 NET - "But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given - because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe."

Galatians 4:3 NIV - "So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world."

1 Corinthians 16:22 NLT - "If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed. Our Lord, come!"

2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NLT - "If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God."

Romans Chapter 5

Romans 8:20-22 NLT - "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Ephesians 2:1-3 NLT - "Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else."

Hebrews 10:22 NASB - ". . . let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

1 John 3:8 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil."

Revelation 12:9 KJV - "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[marks]

Below is a start for why I believe that the minds of humans sustained Evil thinking . . . brought on by the Plan of God.

OK, I didn't know you thought that way.

God's plan was for man to become evil?

That's not how I read it, I can say that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Proverbs 3:33 NIV - "The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous."

This passage does not refer to Adam or his transgression in the garden, nor does it refer to a general curse upon mankind. This passage is about how God makes a difference between the lives of the wicked and the righteous, written by the king of Israel, within the covenant of Law.

Rather than put quote formating, I'll just leave these in the body . . .

Lamentations 3:65 NKJV - "Give them a veiled heart; Your curse be upon them!"

Same as above . . . nothing about Adam, nothing about Mankind, nothing about his transgression,or 'God's intent to make everyone sinners'.

Lamentations 3:62-65
62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.
63) Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.
64) Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65) Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.

You are taking this completely out of context.

Galatians 3:10 NLT - "But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law."

The curse is from the Law, not Adam's transgression. So here again, this is about Israel in the keeping or breaking of their covenant. Out of context.

Galatians 3:22 NET - "But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given - because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe."

Nothing about a curse, nor Adam, his transgression, or 'God's intent to make everyone sinners'.

Galatians 4:3 NIV - "So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world."

Same as above . . .

1 Corinthians 16:22 NLT - "If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed. Our Lord, come!"

I'm curious, as I'm seeing you are "cherry picking" translations in this post, what the literal says.

1 Corinthians 16:22
22) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

OK, Paul wrote, according to the King James, let him be accursed. In the NLT, it shows, that person is cursed.

I'll check the Greek, does it matter?



So here it agrees with the KJV, "let him be". A small matter. Again, is it important? It is to me.

2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."

No curse, no Adam, no humanity . . . this passage is about the Jews, and their response to the hearing of the Law.

Reading through the rest of your list, I'm finding they are like what I found above. None of them are saying what you've stated, that God cursed man to make him a sinner, and that this was God's perfect plan.

None of them say this, outright, even implict, and when I look at the contexts, I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing them all talking about other things.

Would you like to pick one or two and show me exactly how it teaches what you are saying?

Much love!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

OK, I didn't know you thought that way.

God's plan was for man to become evil?

That's not how I read it, I can say that.

Much love!

Pretty much, yes. The Mysterious Plan of God could be defined in this simplistic way:

"A Plan of Power, revealing the separation of Jews from Gentiles, creating a path for All to be reconciled to God, through Christ." - Incredibly, it is also called the "Prophetic Vision" as quoted from Dan 9:24.

As I catalog and organize the Holy Scriptures, I see a picture that resembles rats in a cage with no escape but death. The Plan is . . . that Jesus is the redeemer of this Evil Problem that was set upon Heavenly Scrolls before the creation of the world. The question that we all face is this: Will we Trust in Jesus with the death of our bodies? Do we believe that Jesus is the master of Life and Death, that just as Jesus overcame His Death, do we believe that we are raised with Him and like Him, we will never again die?

Daniel 9:24 NKJV - "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."

I'm listening to your views. As I've said before in so many words . . . you're no dummy. I'd be interested in sitting down with you and hearing your vision of the Bible. I'm curious about what everyone thinks. Why? Because I don't know everything . . . I'm just a human being.

 

[marks]

I'm listening to your views.

I'd start here . . .

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love. Jesus said, I am the truth. God is not a man that He should lie.

So I do not find His commandment to not eat from That Tree to be disengenuous, that is, God really was telling man to not eat, because man was really not supposed to.

I believe God made man to have a family to share Himself with. And I think that what God is doing is restoring us to His original intent, having saved us from the sin we fell headlong into.

Much love!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'd start here . . .

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love. Jesus said, I am the truth. God is not a man that He should lie.

So I do not find His commandment to not eat from That Tree to be disingenuous, that is, God really was telling man to not eat, because man was really not supposed to.

I believe God made man to have a family to share Himself with. And I think that what God is doing is restoring us to His original intent, having saved us from the sin we fell headlong into.

Much love!

I hear you, and I can totally grasp what you're saying, for it's what I used to believe as well. However, when I began paying special attention to the Power of God and to all of the passages that demonstrate it, as well as all of the passages where God takes full responsibility for events . . . I was left with one conclusion, which is that God has always had a Plan that was in place before the creation of the world.

Ephesians 3:11 KJV - "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord . . ."
Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Purpose . . . Plan . . . they're the same thing regardless of translation. I can't take this any other way than to suggest that God has always known what would happen, here on earth, and that He would make it happen.

 

[justbyfaith]

Everybody, just take a look at the first book of Adam & Eve, the church don't use this book

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

 

[marks]

The question that we all face is this: Will we Trust in Jesus with the death of our bodies?

Personally I find the real question to be, Can I trust Him with my life and my body right now?

Death comes to all, but we can walk in the Spirit now, or do the works of the flesh now. For me, it comes down to, IF I'm trusting Jesus right now, in my reconciliation to God, then I allow Him to be active in me now, and my life is the spirit life now.

As I live this way more and more consistently, more and more comes under this umbrella of trust, as the mind is being renewed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I hear you, and I can totally grasp what you're saying, for it's what I used to believe as well. However, when I began paying special attention to the Power of God and to all of the passages that demonstrate it, as well as all of the passages where God takes full responsibility for events . . . I was left with one conclusion, which is that God has always had a Plan that was in place before the creation of the world.

Ephesians 3:11 KJV - "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord . . ."
Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Purpose . . . Plan . . . they're the same thing regardless of translation. I can't take this any other way than to suggest that God has always known what would happen, here on earth, and that He would make it happen.

There is nothing in this world I think that you could say to me to make me think that God's desire for man was that we would live in sin, doing what is evil.

Is God not able to accomplish His will without creating sinners first? Was sin necessary for God's work to be done? Did God say, don't sin, but He really meant, do? That would make Him a liar in my estimation.

Many people agree with your point of view, but to me it is completely contrary to God's Self-revelation, that He is the Truth, and that He is Love.

God in His divine decree gave man a choice. Man chose, and man bears that responsibility.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can't take this any other way than to suggest that God has always known what would happen, here on earth, and that He would make it happen.

Knowing you and I will sin is a very different thing than approving of our sin as if it were something good, and causing our sin, as if it were something God would do.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and for that He receives the glory. If Jesus is the author of our sin, what then?

Much love!