Adam and Mary........Mediatrix

[bbyrd009]

for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

not blasphemous at all, coming from Paul, right. Paul could confess to drowning puppies and we would swallow it whole imo lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Does “Virgin” tell us that Mary was born without sin?

ha, nope

The word doesn’t tell us what was before her submission to God’s will.

hmm, doesn't an angel make some statement to that effect? I'd hafta go review, but i guess it's sparse, yeh

 

[bbyrd009]

I ask, because I really don’t know: are we all (while in sin) a part of this vine?

oh, can one constantly "crap" on their parents even and not eventually get "cut off?" To me the diff is confession v justifications/excuses; confession leads to salvation right

 

[bbyrd009]

Or are those chosen of God ‘naturally’ born apart of God’s vine? That is what I struggle with was Mary “blessed” from her natural mothers womb? When did Moses become a part of the vine? Was I born of a bitter cluster. Did you say it is impossible? Because this pretty much sums up how I was Romans 3:10-18

ya, me too i guess. Good point

 

[bbyrd009]

I am sorry but it seems you are saying those that are chosen of God as Mary(blessed) or Jacob or Moses or Naomi, or Paul...never were unprofitable.

prolly a sexual bias on my part or something, the three men all have sins that come to mind, but neither woman does

Does He not choose sinners? are we not all unprofitable without Christ. Wouldn’t this include Mary? Are those chosen separated the moment they are born naturally?

good Qs, as to the last one i would say there is prolly a bell-curve there too, everyone is diff, but just guessing

 

[Taken]

it seems Adam was complicit in Eve's sin as she was 'flesh of my flesh bone of my bone as was also the case with Mary and Jesus imho - twinc

Eve WAS flesh of Adams flesh, bone of Adams bone.

Jesus WAS NOT flesh of Mary's flesh or bone of Mary's bone.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

For me though I believe all flesh is unfruitful until a life is restored and connected to the only vine that bears fruit which is Christ.

Ubuntu is a great Name of Christ imo

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ubuntu is a great Name of Christ imo

Interesting. Of course I had to look up what "Ubuntu" means.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

doesn't Michael or Gabriel or whatever even make a profession of praise for Mary? Although i could be misunderstanding there too, Scripture being Scripture. "Blessed are you among women"

yes, "blessed are you among women". The church(His body)(His bride) (His seed) is blessed among women? I thought a lot about this yesterday and to make Mary sinless from the time she was born of a natural birth by her mother...then that is to imply that for one to be blessed of God, they must be "sinless" from natural birth or God can not have favor on them. That is not our hope, or at least not my hope. That is not what the gospel of faith is. Instead, it is God loved us while we were yet in sin and had mercy on us. That is the model. He came for sinners. So, is not "blessed are you among women" and God regarded(looked with favor) on the "low estate of your handmaiden" directly linked to:

Matthew 5:3-11 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

She, the church(made without hands) … is the virgin bride.

 

[twinc]

yes, "blessed are you among women". The church(His body)(His bride) (His seed) is blessed among women? I thought a lot about this yesterday and to make Mary sinless from the time she was born of a natural birth by her mother...then that is to imply that for one to be blessed of God, they must be "sinless" from natural birth or God can not have favor on them. That is not our hope, or at least not my hope. That is not what the gospel of faith is. Instead, it is God loved us while we were yet in sin and had mercy on us. That is the model. He came for sinners. So, is not "blessed are you among women" and God regarded(looked with favor) on the "low estate of your handmaiden" directly linked to:

Matthew 5:3-11 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

She, the church(made without hands) … is the virgin bride.

it is like crazy man = white man and woman missionaries speak with forked tongue regarding Mary forl they say nothing special but special virgin - like crazy man crazy imho - twinc

 

[VictoryinJesus]

it is like crazy man = white man and woman missionaries speak with forked tongue regarding Mary forl they say nothing special but special virgin - like crazy man crazy imho - twinc

2 Corinthians 11:2
[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Who is your mother twinc? Mary or Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[epostle1]

That is one way of looking at a vow. It is not the only way of looking at the Numbers 30 chapter.

It start of with: -
Numbers 30 : 2: - If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.

Which has no reference to sex contained within it.

Also the words for the girl in her youth: -

Numbers 30 : 3 - 5: - 3 "Or if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement while in her father's house in her youth, 4 and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she has bound herself, and her father holds his peace, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound herself shall stand. 5 But if her father overrules her on the day that he hears, then none of her vows nor her agreements by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will release her, because her father overruled her.

Which has no reference to sex within this passage.

It then goes on to deal with "single women", either widowed or divorced: -

Numbers 30 : 9: - "Also any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her.

Notice that this verse deals with a widowed or divorced woman who has no man who can over ride any vow by which she has bound herself by. There is no reference to sex particularly in this verse

The chapter then goes on to deal with a woman who is married: -

Numbers 30 : 10 - 15: - 10 "If she vowed in her husband's house, or bound herself by an agreement with an oath, 11 and her husband heard it, and made no response to her and did not overrule her, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement by which she bound herself shall stand. 12 But if her husband truly made them void on the day he heard them, then whatever proceeded from her lips concerning her vows or concerning the agreement binding her, it shall not stand; her husband has made them void, and the Lord will release her. 13 Every vow and every binding oath to afflict her soul, her husband may confirm it, or her husband may make it void. 14 Now if her husband makes no response whatever to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all the agreements that bind her; he confirms them, because he made no response to her on the day that he heard them. 15 But if he does make them void after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt."

Again this passage has no direct reference to "sex" as you are implying or the great Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom points out, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse.

This chapter has, of course, been used to justify the Roman Catholic stance of the "Virgin Mary."

The ancient Jews were also good at side stepping "sin" and justifying themselves before God even though they were indulging in idolatrous practices and hiding this practice from God.

In the case of Eve, she had gone against an agreement between God and Adam, that he and those who came after him, were not to eat of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. When he learnt that Eve had gone against the covenantal obligations entered into when Adam was placed in the Garden, then Adam could have brought correction and overturned Eve's actions in response to what Satan had said to her. However, Adam joined Eve in her actions after he heard of her sin, so the "sin" of Eve became his "sin" and he accepted all of the responsibility for her "sin," and accepted her guilt as well.

This is why Adam bears the blame for sin entering the world.

As such I do not hold to what you wrote in your post above or what is contained within the link you provided.

Shalom

Of course there is no reference to sex anywhere in the Bible, sex is too bad and dirty to be referenced at all.
Jay, Numbers 30 as I quoted is about sexual abstinence, not sex.

It may be hard for you to accept that vows of perpetual virginity did in fact occur in the ancient world, given that we live in a sex saturated culture. What makes it harder to grasp is the fact that sometimes women in ancient Jewish culture who were to serve full time in the Temple, were consecrated virgins. Not everything about Jewish culture is explicit in scripture, but scripture gives us enough clues to support the notion that Mary took vows of perpetual virginity. The denial of Mary's perpetual virginity didn't start until the 19th century. Liberal Protestant modernists started teaching it, and before that, no Protestant church on the planet denied the PVM, (and no early reformer either.) It's a false man made tradition.

 

[twinc]

Eve WAS flesh of Adams flesh, bone of Adams bone.

Jesus WAS NOT flesh of Mary's flesh or bone of Mary's bone.

God Bless,
Taken

are you sure - twinc

 

[twinc]

Of course there is no reference to sex anywhere in the Bible, sex is too bad and dirty to be referenced at all.
Jay, Numbers 30 as I quoted is about sexual abstinence, not sex.

It may be hard for you to accept that vows of perpetual virginity did in fact occur in the ancient world, given that we live in a sex saturated culture. What makes it harder to grasp is the fact that sometimes women in ancient Jewish culture who were to serve full time in the Temple, were consecrated virgins. Not everything about Jewish culture is explicit in scripture, but scripture gives us enough clues to support the notion that Mary took vows of perpetual virginity. The denial of Mary's perpetual virginity didn't start until the 19th century. Liberal Protestant modernists started teaching it, and before that, no Protestant church on the planet denied the PVM, (and no early reformer either.) It's a false man made tradition.

are you sure - twinc

btw it is stated in the bible that there were eunuchs for God's sake - is it hard to accept that this also applied to Joseph husband of Mary - twinc

 

[Taken]

are you sure - twinc

Yes

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Jay Ross]

What I had said: -

That is one way of looking at a vow. It is not the only way of looking at the Numbers 30 chapter.

It start of with: -
Numbers 30 : 2: - If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.
. . . . .
Numbers 30 : 3 - 5: - 3 "Or if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement while in her father's house in her youth, 4 and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she has bound herself, and her father holds his peace, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound herself shall stand. 5 But if her father overrules her on the day that he hears, then none of her vows nor her agreements by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will release her, because her father overruled her.
. . . . . .
Numbers 30 : 9: - "Also any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her.
. . . . . .
Numbers 30 : 10 - 15: - 10 "If she vowed in her husband's house, or bound herself by an agreement with an oath, 11 and her husband heard it, and made no response to her and did not overrule her, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement by which she bound herself shall stand. 12 But if her husband truly made them void on the day he heard them, then whatever proceeded from her lips concerning her vows or concerning the agreement binding her, it shall not stand; her husband has made them void, and the Lord will release her. 13 Every vow and every binding oath to afflict her soul, her husband may confirm it, or her husband may make it void. 14 Now if her husband makes no response whatever to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all the agreements that bind her; he confirms them, because he made no response to her on the day that he heard them. 15 But if he does make them void after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt."

Again this passage has no direct reference to "sex" as you are implying or the great Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom points out, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse.

​

As such I said that I "do not hold to what you wrote in your post above or what is contained within the link you provided.

Shalom

Of course there is no reference to sex anywhere in the Bible, sex is too bad and dirty to be referenced at all.
Jay, Numbers 30 as I quoted is about sexual abstinence, not sex.

It may be hard for you to accept that vows of perpetual virginity did in fact occur in the ancient world, given that we live in a sex saturated culture. What makes it harder to grasp is the fact that sometimes women in ancient Jewish culture who were to serve full time in the Temple, were consecrated virgins. Not everything about Jewish culture is explicit in scripture, but scripture gives us enough clues to support the notion that Mary took vows of perpetual virginity. The denial of Mary's perpetual virginity didn't start until the 19th century. Liberal Protestant modernists started teaching it, and before that, no Protestant church on the planet denied the PVM, (and no early reformer either.) It's a false man made tradition.

epostle1, it is you who did not grasp the significance of what I had written. I did not discount the fact that a girl in her fathers house could enter into a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement such as sexual chastity. I was suggesting that there are other vow which people make with the Lord that are outside of sexual chastity, i.e. a vow to become a tireless worker for the kingdom of God.

It is my belief that this chapter is dealing with the issue of make a vow to God and then not keeping it.

Because a woman is joined to her husband, if she makes a vow or agreement with God, i.e. "I swear by God that I will do such and such . . , it becomes binding on them both if, upon first hearing of the vow or agreement with God, the husband does not immediately make the vow or agreement with God null in void, i.e. if a wife speaks on behalf of herself and her husband to sell their land and swears by God in an oath to do so.

It is my view that Numbers 30 is tired up with the concept of taking the name of the Lord God in vain. A very different and serious offence before God.

 

[epostle1]

What I had said: -
As such I said that I "do not hold to what you wrote in your post above or what is contained within the link you provided.
Shalom

That's your opinion.

epostle1, it is you who did not grasp the significance of what I had written. I did not discount the fact that a girl in her fathers house could enter into a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement such as sexual chastity. I was suggesting that there are other vow which people make with the Lord that are outside of sexual chastity, i.e. a vow to become a tireless worker for the kingdom of God.

Name vows in Numbers 30:6-15 that are not related to sexual abstinence. Verse number, please.

It is my belief that this chapter is dealing with the issue of make a vow to God and then not keeping it.

Because a woman is joined to her husband, if she makes a vow or agreement with God, i.e. "I swear by God that I will do such and such . . , it becomes binding on them both if, upon first hearing of the vow or agreement with God, the husband does not immediately make the vow or agreement with God null in void, i.e. if a wife speaks on behalf of herself and her husband to sell their land and swears by God in an oath to do so.

It is my view that Numbers 30 is tired up with the concept of taking the name of the Lord God in vain. A very different and serious offence before God.

Name the verse in Numbers 30:6-15 that has the concept of taking the name of the Lord God in vain.

I don't need explicit proof text for Mary taking vows of perpetual virginity, just as I don't need explicit proof text to prove Jesus loved His mother (there isn't any). However, I DO have the context of the entire Bible.

 

[Jay Ross]

That's your opinion.
Name vows in Numbers 30:6-15 that are not related to sexual abstinence. Verse number, please.

Name the verse in Numbers 30:6-15 that has the concept of taking the name of the Lord God in vain.

I don't need explicit proof text for Mary taking vows of perpetual virginity, just as I don't need explicit proof text to prove Jesus loved His mother (there isn't any). However, I DO have the context of the entire Bible.

My response has had nothing to do with Mary. it has been about Eve not being corrected by Adam when she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. It provides the rationalisation from a scriptural perspective as to why Adam is the one who is held responsible for bringing sin into the world.

I am not interested in your virgin Mary theological argument at all.

 

[epostle1]

vows

2 Corinthians 11:2
[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Who is your mother twinc? Mary or Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.​

Galatians 4:26 ​

Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Zion was the name of the Jebusite citadel that later became the City of David. In the many texts of the Old Testament that speak of the Daughter of Zion, there is no real distinction to be made between a daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem itself.

In the Old Testament, the title Virgin of Israel is the same as the Daughter of Zion. The image of the bride of the Lord is found in Hosea, Chapters 1-3: It reflects the infidelity of the people to their God.

Jeremiah 3:3-4 speaks of prostitution and the infidelity of the bride. Virginity in the Old Testament is fidelity to the Covenant. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul speaks of the Church as a pure virgin. Here, virginity is the purity of faith.

Throughout the Old Testament, it is in Zion-Jerusalem that God shall gather together all of his people. In Isaiah 35:10, the tribes of Israel shall gather in Zion. In Ezekiel 22:17-22, the prophet describes God’s purification of his people that shall take place “within” the walls of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem.

The Hebrew word used to describe this inner section of the city is “beqervah,” a word formed from the root “qerev” meaning something deep, intimate, situated deep within a person. It also means the maternal womb, the intestines, the breast, the insides of a person, the most secret area of one’s soul where wisdom, spirit, malice and the Law of the Lord dwell. Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation.

In the Christian Tradition

The Second Vatican Council formally called Mary “Daughter of Zion” in the dogmatic constitution on the Church “Lumen Gentium” (No. 52). The Church’s appropriation of this title for the Mother of the Lord has a rich Scriptural foundation. Mary illustrates the prophecies of the Old Testament that ascribed value to the eschatological role of woman as mother both of the Messiah and of the new people of God.

The title Daughter of Zion evokes the great biblical symbolism of the Messianic Zion. Mary illustrates the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures which ascribed value to the eschatological role of woman as mother both of the Messiah and of the new people of God: the individual person and the whole people being very closely united, in line with the cultural structures of Israel.

For the prophets, the Daughter of Zion was the spouse of the Lord when she observed the covenant. Mary’s role as Daughter of Zion, or for that matter any of her roles in the life of God’s people, can never be understood independently of Christ and of the Spirit, which he bestows upon all humanity in dying on the cross.

“Lumen Gentium” says that all theology and Marian piety belong to the mystery of Christ and to the mystery of the Church.

Mary, Daughter of Zion, is the archetype of the Church as Bride, Virgin and Mother. It is not only biological virginity, but also spiritual virginity, which means fidelity to the Scriptures, openness toward others, and purity in faith.

Mary’s words to the servants at the wedding banquet in Cana (John 2:1-12) are an invitation to all peoples to become part of the new people of God. Mary is the new “Daughter of Zion” because she has invited the servants to perfectly obey Jesus the Lord. At Cana this new Daughter of Zion has given voice to all people.

Both at Cana and at Calvary (in John’s Gospel), Mary represents not only her maternity and physical relationship with her son, but also her highly symbolic role of Woman and Mother of God’s people. At Calvary, more than any other place in the fourth Gospel, Mary is “Mother Zion”: her spiritual maternity begins at the foot of the cross.

As “Mother Zion,” she not only welcomes and represents Israel, but the Church, the People of God of the New Covenant. At the foot of the cross, Mary is the mother of the new messianic people, of all of those who are one in Christ.

She who bore Jesus in her womb now takes her place in the assembly of God’s holy people. She is the new Jerusalem: In her own womb was the Temple, and all peoples shall be gathered back to the Temple, which is her Son. The Mother of Jesus is indeed the Mother of all of God’s scattered children. She is Mother of the Church. Mary is the first Daughter of Zion, leading all of God’s people on the journey toward the Kingdom.

https://zenit.org/articles/shout-for-joy-o-daughter-zion/

Who is my mother? Mary or Galatians 4:26?
The answer is both.

​

 

[bbyrd009]

are you sure - twinc

they were not married twinc, And Scripture directly states that she consummated her marriage with Joseph, which is only discounted via trickery and bad exegesis.

Temple virgins did not get married, and the reason for perpetual virginity is strictly Roman Goddess Worship, cult of Athena, etc, so two concepts are being mixed there, yet 2+2 still does not = 5

inferring another mediator also runs directly counter to Scripture in several other places, and tbh most Christian forums would never even have allowed this thread.
By which i mean kudos to this site for allowing it, that the truth might shine, which we could all stop talking and start Quoting Scripture, see, and this concept would quickly be revealed for the lie that it is, how bout we all do that?