Adam and Mary........Mediatrix

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twinc

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I'll tell you exactly why Twinc, since we've been around this block before.
Please study the Edenic Covenant, since you won't take my word for it.
Then you tell me with whom the Covenant was made....
Was it made with Adam or was it made with Eve?
So who broke the Covenant? Adam or Eve?

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin entered the world through a man, Adam:
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

1 Corinthians 15:21a tells us that sin entered the world through a man, Adam:
21For since by a man came death,

As to 1 Timothy 2:14,,,
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
This is telling us that Eve was the one who was deceived by satan. The verse would suggest that men have a stronger will...so satan got to Adam via Eve, who was easier to deceive by satan. Of course, Adam could have said no to Eve when she offered him the forbidden fruit. She would have displeased God, but would not have caused the fall of all mankind.

Blessings


so you see only all men have siinned and only all men have been saved - twinc
 

GodsGrace

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so you see only all men have siinned and only all men have been saved - twinc
LOL
So you see only all women have sinned and only all women have been saved?

When Paul speaks of MEN, or MAN, he means the whole human race.
But Adam is the one who made sin enter the human race.

You could read this:


The Edenic covenant - What is it?
The Edenic covenant is one of many covenants between God and man in the Bible. The Edenic covenant specifically refers to the covenant made between God and Adam in Genesis. The Edenic covenant was a bilateral or conditional covenant, that is, there was responsibility on both sides. Adam was responsible to obey, and God would bless him with life. If Adam disobeyed, and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, death would be the result (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam's life was conditional on his obedience.

We all know how the story goes: Adam disobeyed and broke the Edenic covenant, receiving the punishment of death. He did not die immediately, but he and Eve inherited death, and then passed it on to all their offspring, and death continues to this day to be the wages of sin (Proverbs 10:16; Romans 6:23).

source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html
 
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bbyrd009

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what a load of rubbish and nonsense with no connection to the OP - talk about eating each other how about now - why not eat the holy manna from heaven[Jn 6:53-59] - twinc
why not break out a Bible and read It sometime twinc, i mean this even tops "there are no Muslims in the twinc" lol.
Sin came into the world through one man, and i mean no offense but you are just delusional
only good Protestants will be born again as Catholics as this is impossible fpr most Protestants who are pagans who refuse to put on Christ but prefer to remain human beasts and pagans [Jn 6:53-59] and walk no more with Him[Jn 6I66] - tweinc
it's your story, i'll let you tell it i guess. Didn't know you were a Catholic but i can't say i'm too surprised
 
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bbyrd009

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i prolly even shoulda already said that you seem like a good-hearted guy, and if the Virgin Mary has been established in your mind as being somehow salvational i don't think God cares. It isn't Scriptural, and we have supposedly moved on from Athena/Goddess worship, but at the same time i guess ppl worshipped Athena bc that was the best expression of God that they could understand at the time.

I guess you have been hearing "Virgin Mary" since you were in the womb, and it's prolly like telling a frog not to hop at this point to suggest anything otherwise to you. And fwiw i'm sorry about your church too; apparently just like in politics, the leaders sin and the ppl get to suffer for it. I'd ask you how Anarchy is lookin' now but i guess that is a dirty word to you :)
 

twinc

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i prolly even shoulda already said that you seem like a good-hearted guy, and if the Virgin Mary has been established in your mind as being somehow salvational i don't think God cares. It isn't Scriptural, and we have supposedly moved on from Athena/Goddess worship, but at the same time i guess ppl worshipped Athena bc that was the best expression of God that they could understand at the time.

I guess you have been hearing "Virgin Mary" since you were in the womb, and it's prolly like telling a frog not to hop at this point to suggest anything otherwise to you. And fwiw i'm sorry about your church too; apparently just like in politics, the leaders sin and the ppl get to suffer for it. I'd ask you how Anarchy is lookin' now but i guess that is a dirty word to you :)


Anarchy is rife in Protestanism with division, despair, divergence, confusion etc like the Pharisees of old the leaders sin and refuse to enter and the ppl get to suffer imho - twinc
 

bbyrd009

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like the Pharisees of old the leaders sin
Anarchy means "no leaders" twinc, 1 Samuel 8

"
Rome is a dead end in more ways than one, and this primarily because its core passions are not supported by natural evolution. Nature does not support an evolution from natural, non-centralized empire (prokaryote) to political empire (eukaryote) to an even bigger and more rigid empire, with a bigger and more rigid nucleus and ever expanding constitutional code. Nature is rigged to produce diversity and to level out concentrations of energy by means of the second law of thermodynamics. That's why, sooner or later, every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain be made low, the crooked straight, and the rough places plain (Isaiah 40:4). Rome must end for the same reason why your coffee gets cold, and the Hebrews knew this. {we call this "entropy" now, and the author previously brought this out}

The fate of Rome (or any large federation or fortune) is to fall apart into non-centralized clusters of much smaller states that are all founded on the same principles. These principles have to be natural or else they will produce a society as unstable as that of Rome. And the joined identities of these nations will form a collective identity that none of the separate states could have designed but in which all states feel perfectly received and expressed. We're talking about, of course, the social equivalent of a multi-cellular organism.

Pax Romana was the pinnacle of nations being in uproar and the devisement of a vain thing against the Creator and his anointed (Psalm 2:1-2)..."
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mary.html#.W1jhudJKiUl
 
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twinc

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LOL
So you see only all women have sinned and only all women have been saved?

When Paul speaks of MEN, or MAN, he means the whole human race.
But Adam is the one who made sin enter the human race.

You could read this:


The Edenic covenant - What is it?
The Edenic covenant is one of many covenants between God and man in the Bible. The Edenic covenant specifically refers to the covenant made between God and Adam in Genesis. The Edenic covenant was a bilateral or conditional covenant, that is, there was responsibility on both sides. Adam was responsible to obey, and God would bless him with life. If Adam disobeyed, and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, death would be the result (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam's life was conditional on his obedience.

We all know how the story goes: Adam disobeyed and broke the Edenic covenant, receiving the punishment of death. He did not die immediately, but he and Eve inherited death, and then passed it on to all their offspring, and death continues to this day to be the wages of sin (Proverbs 10:16; Romans 6:23).

source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html


it seems you are trying to imply that the Edenic covenant only applied to ADAM but you are mistaken for Eve at Gen 3:3 says us - twinc
 

GodsGrace

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it seems you are trying to imply that the Edenic covenant only applied to ADAM but you are mistaken for Eve at Gen 3:3 says us - twinc
I don't understand. I'm sorry.

Whatever I'm mistaken about is not my mistake but the mistake of theologians and biblical scholars.
 

Enoch111

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The Edenic covenant - What is it?
After you study Genesis 1-3 you will find that there is no such thing as an Edenic Covenant. God gave the garden of Eden as a generous gift to Adam and Eve, in which they would be stewards or caretakers, but there was only one commandment and one stipulation. That was not a covenant, but a DIRE WARNING.

The first covenant mentioned in the Bible is the covenant which God made with Noah (Gen 9:8,9): And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...

Brown-Driver-Briggs
בְּרִית285 noun [berith] feminine covenant (Aramaic קְיָם, διαθήκη; constitutio) — ׳ב Genesis 9:13...

II. between God and man....
2 covenant, as a divine constitution or ordinance with signs or pledges (see אוֺת).
a. with Noah Genesis 9:9-17 (P) Isaiah 54:10;Jeremiah 33:20,25; a divine promise that there would be no other deluge.

 

epostle1

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Ah yes, Mary got saved when she went to the Temple and recited the sinners prayer...no wait...

Mary got saved when the Arch-angel Gabriel appeared to her and went "POOF! You are now full of grace!...no wait...

Mary got saved at the moment of her conception by the merits of the cross RETROSPECTIVELY, which makes more biblical sense as to WHEN Mary got saved, contrary to the Protestant denial of the Immaculate Conception, which didn't start until the 19th century. God did not HAVE TO make Mary a pure vessel to bear the Messiah, He CHOSE TO.

If God doesn't apply the grace of the cross backward through time (as in Mary's conception), how did He forgive David's sin centuries before?


mary.jpg
 
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epostle1

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Q: Please explain to me how come the Douay-Rheims Gen 3:15 and the the New American Bible Gen 3:15 differ. I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

A: I certainly do. In most editions of the Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis 3:15, in which God is addressing the serpent, reads like this:

"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

In the New American Bible, as in all other modern Bibles, it reads like this:

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

The essential difference between these two renderings -- or at least the one people always ask about -- concerning who will crush the serpent's head and who the serpent is trying to strike. The Douay-Rheims uses feminine pronouns -- she and her -- implying that the woman is the person being spoken of in this part of the verse. All modern translations use masculine pronouns -- he and his -- implying that the seed of the woman is the of that part of the verse.

The reason for the difference in the renderings is a manuscript difference. Modern translations follow what the original Hebrew of the passage says. The Douay-Rheims, however, is following a manuscript variant found in many early Fathers and some editions of the Vulgate (but not the original; Jerome followed the Hebrew text in his edition of the Vulgate). The variant probably originated as a copyist error when a scribe failed to take note that the subject of the verse had shifted from the woman to the seed of the woman.

People notice this variant today because the expression found in the Douay-Rheims has been the basis of some popular Catholic art, showing a serene Mary standing over a crushed serpent.

This is because Christians have recognized (all the way back to the first century) that the woman and her seed mentioned in Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons (either Abel or Seth). They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. Thus, just as the first half of the verse, speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman, has been applied to Mary, the second half, speaking of the head crushing and heel striking, has also been applied to Mary due to the manuscript variant, though it properly applies to Jesus, given the original Hebrew.

This does not mean that the idea cannot be validly applied to Mary as well. Through her cooperation in the incarnation of Christ, so that the Son of God (who, from the cross, directly crushed the head of the serpent) became her seed, Mary did crush the head of the serpent. In the same way, the serpent struck at Christ on the cross, and indirectly struck at Mary's heart as well, who had to witness the death of her own Son (cf. John 19:25-27). As the holy priest Simeon had told her years before:

"Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against -- and a sword will pierce through your own soul also -- that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed" (Luke 2:34b-35).

Thus Jesus crushed the serpent directly and was directly struck by the serpent; Mary, through her cooperation in the incarnation and her witnessing the sufferings and death of her Son, indirectly crushed the serpent and was indirectly struck by the serpent.

This has long been recognized by Catholics. The footnotes provided a couple of hundred years ago by Bishop Challoner in his revision of the Douay state, "The sense [of these two readings] is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head."
http://www.cin.org/users/james/reference/info_saints.htm


gabriel.jpg
Luke 1:26–38​
 

twinc

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Anarchy means "no leaders" twinc, 1 Samuel 8

"
Rome is a dead end in more ways than one, and this primarily because its core passions are not supported by natural evolution. Nature does not support an evolution from natural, non-centralized empire (prokaryote) to political empire (eukaryote) to an even bigger and more rigid empire, with a bigger and more rigid nucleus and ever expanding constitutional code. Nature is rigged to produce diversity and to level out concentrations of energy by means of the second law of thermodynamics. That's why, sooner or later, every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain be made low, the crooked straight, and the rough places plain (Isaiah 40:4). Rome must end for the same reason why your coffee gets cold, and the Hebrews knew this. {we call this "entropy" now, and the author previously brought this out}

The fate of Rome (or any large federation or fortune) is to fall apart into non-centralized clusters of much smaller states that are all founded on the same principles. These principles have to be natural or else they will produce a society as unstable as that of Rome. And the joined identities of these nations will form a collective identity that none of the separate states could have designed but in which all states feel perfectly received and expressed. We're talking about, of course, the social equivalent of a multi-cellular organism.

Pax Romana was the pinnacle of nations being in uproar and the devisement of a vain thing against the Creator and his anointed (Psalm 2:1-2)..."
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mary.html#.W1jhudJKiUl
 

twinc

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Anarchy means disorder, confusion etc so we see Protestantism end in more ways than one must end and is fated to fall apart as in entropy - twinc
 

GodsGrace

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After you study Genesis 1-3 you will find that there is no such thing as an Edenic Covenant. God gave the garden of Eden as a generous gift to Adam and Eve, in which they would be stewards or caretakers, but there was only one commandment and one stipulation. That was not a covenant, but a DIRE WARNING.

The first covenant mentioned in the Bible is the covenant which God made with Noah (Gen 9:8,9): And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...

Brown-Driver-Briggs
בְּרִית285 noun [berith] feminine covenant (Aramaic קְיָם, διαθήκη; constitutio) — ׳ב Genesis 9:13...

II. between God and man....
2 covenant, as a divine constitution or ordinance with signs or pledges (see אוֺת).
a. with Noah Genesis 9:9-17 (P) Isaiah 54:10;Jeremiah 33:20,25; a divine promise that there would be no other deluge.
Hi Enoch
To study the Covenants, you don't study the bible, you study the covenants.
They are based on the bible, of course, but are difficult for a normal person to glean from there.

You're right about the Edenic Covenant. Some theologians start with this and some start with the Adamic Covenant. These two covenants are not explicit, but implicated.

They both have signs and blessings and curses...I'd have to check up on the Edenic but the Adamic's sign is the angels with the flaming swords. The seal is the animal sacrifice for their clothing.

The Edenic is conditional and the Adamic in non-conditional.

You could choose not to study these two covenants. I liked to start from the very beginning because it helped to understand the story of Adam and Eve and how God has been present from the beginning.

The actual first explicit covenant, in covenant language, is indeed with Noah, as you've stated. The sign here is the rainbow; it is an unconditional covenant.
This covenant is between God and mankind.
 

bbyrd009

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Anarchy means disorder, confusion etc
sorry twinc, i know that's prolly what the dictionary is telling you, right, but that is Chaos, not Anarchy.
you might go for def #2, wherein it becomes more obvious why a Government might want you to believe Def #1,
"absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal."
anarchy-not-anarchy.png
and once again you might read Samuel's Anarchist Manifesto, 1 Samuel 8. Anarchy does not mean "no rules," but "no rulers." God wants Anarchists, and the term can't really be changed bc that is what Anarchy means, and it has never meant what the MSM says it does, weird as that sounds.

You have been progged against the term from the cradle--that and "Communist" lol--and our milk was indoctrination into the State. Consider what "service" means to you in that context, etc. i know this is hard twinc but "everything you know is wrong," ok. Meaning everything we are taught. Lots of Anarchists where you are btw. Are there Chaos Agents in among them? That's actually a completely diff crowd, mostly. Amish are Anarchists
 
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GodsGrace

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sorry twinc, i know that's prolly what the dictionary is telling you, right, but that is Chaos, not Anarchy.
you might go for def #2, wherein it becomes more obvious why a Government might want you to believe Def #1,
"absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal."
anarchy-not-anarchy.png
and once again you might read Samuel's Anarchist Manifesto, 1 Samuel 8. Anarchy does not mean "no rules," but "no rulers." God wants Anarchists, and the term can't really be changed bc that is what Anarchy means, and it has never meant what the MSM says it does, weird as that sounds.

You have been progged against the term from the cradle--that and "Communist" lol--and our milk was indoctrination into the State. Consider what "service" means to you in that context, etc. i know this is hard twinc but "everything you know is wrong," ok. Meaning everything we are taught. Lots of Anarchists where you are btw. Are there Chaos Agents in among them? That's actually a completely diff crowd, mostly. Amish are Anarchists
I agree with you bb.
This is the problem as I see it....
I would be all for anarchy, except for the fact that human nature, being what it is, would most probably not allow it to survive.

For example, what If my neighbor and I were growing our own veggies as you example shows. They have no crop one year. Will I take from my family to give to them, or will they have to come and steal from me knowing that there are no rulers?

This has always held me back from supporting it full force.
 

bbyrd009

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I agree with you bb.
This is the problem as I see it....
I would be all for anarchy, except for the fact that human nature, being what it is, would most probably not allow it to survive.

For example, what If my neighbor and I were growing our own veggies as you example shows. They have no crop one year. Will I take from my family to give to them, or will they have to come and steal from me knowing that there are no rulers?

This has always held me back from supporting it full force.
well for that i would ask an Amish or Mennonite how they handle that, they are great examples of Anarchy, and as you can see even considering the concept in that light kind of changes the question. We might also consider all of the Chaos that Rulers bring us.

Anarchy is the natural state, not Governments and rulers, as 1 Samuel 8 makes clear
 
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GodsGrace

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well for that i would ask an Amish or Mennonite how they handle that, they are great examples of Anarchy, and as you can see even considering the concept in that light kind of changes the question. We might also consider all of the Chaos that Rulers bring us.

Anarchy is the natural state, not Governments and rulers, as 1 Samuel 8 makes clear
Amish are very strict Christians. They hold to strict Christian rules and obey them.
All we do here is argue about whether or not God is to be obeyed!
So I don't see your example as being a good one because most persons are not Christian --- there is no absolute authority (God), so WHO decides what is right?
It's complicated...We can't even decide between ourselves here what God expects from us. I hear that He expects NOTHING.
 
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bbyrd009

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They hold to strict Christian rules and obey them.
they actually pretty much went the way of the Puritans i guess, and the whole order is being...well, dissolved is the best characterization that comes to mind, or at least completely remade or something. So i deemed them good Anarchists, but really Anarchy is working within their ranks as well, seems to me
 
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