Adam had free will?

[CarlosB]

Adam had free choice? He knew what he was doing and was aware of what was sin and death?

 

[aspen]

Adam had free will before the Fall - he chose names for the animals. Free will is not limited to choosing right from wrong - in fact this is disordered free will. We were created to choose between Good choices

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Adam had free choice? He knew what he was doing and was aware of what was sin and death?

Indeed, Adam had 'free will'(sovereignty over his whole being) in that he was not originally bound by sin. :)

 

[CarlosB]

Adam had free will before the Fall - he chose names for the animals. Free will is not limited to choosing right from wrong - in fact this is disordered free will. We were created to choose between Good choices

Who said it was he who chose the name of the animals by himself when he did not even know you were naked?

Also the events are not in chronological order but by subject, and without the knowledge of good and evil in the tree could ever have given the name to anything (except the Spirit of God).

So we see God creating man and woman in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 goes back to show how it was the creation of man and woman.

And only after sin is that had the knowledge of good and evil, and not before. And if it was because we sinned all humanity paid for your sin?

I'll show you more ahead that neither he nor anyone else has this thing free will.

Indeed, Adam had 'free will'(sovereignty over his whole being) in that he was not originally bound by sin. :)

Nothing of JB, he was born in sin from the day it was made to be living, to be carnal flesh is the body of sin. So even before Eve sinned already showed that it was the sin of coveting the fruit and wishing sin against the commandment.

Just lacked a law to bring to light his sinful nature and when God gave soon appeared sin, for without law sin is not taken into account and everything looks good, but the function of the law is that it give knowledge of sin .

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed When there is no law.
Romans 5:13

Therefore by the deeds of the law there Shall the flesh be Justified in his sight: for by the law {} is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20

A very simple form will show that Adam never had free will and if there were reasons for this would be after sinning, and never before.

1st test
Génesis3: 7 - ... were then opened their eyes, and knew that they were naked ...

-So they were physically blind? Of course not, but it shows that they had entenddimento of good and evil.

.
2nd test:

Genesis 3:11 - ... Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

Here God shows that the only way they have knowledge of their nakedness was eating from the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil and so fled in fear UNDERSTANDING what they had done.


3rd try

Genesis 3:22 - .. And God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil;

God Himself testifies that the man was now rather like God in the knowledge of good and evil, thus showing that he knew nothing before.


Enough for now!

 

[aspen]

So what you are saying is that God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, secretly hoping they would and then punishing them for disobeying Him, even though He really wanted them to in the first place? Wow that sounds like an abusive parent to me. Do you realize that you are making God's Creation that He declared to be Good, reliant on Evil to perfect it? So here is my question for you - why would Adam and Eve need to know the difference between Good and Evil if evil was never introduced into the world?

The senecio you are suggesting, btw is taught within Mormonism not Christianity.

 

[Selene]

Who said it was he who chose the name of the animals by himself when he did not even know you were naked?

Also the events are not in chronological order but by subject, and without the knowledge of good and evil in the tree could ever have given the name to anything (except the Spirit of God).

So we see God creating man and woman in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 goes back to show how it was the creation of man and woman.

And only after sin is that had the knowledge of good and evil, and not before. And if it was because we sinned all humanity paid for your sin?

I'll show you more ahead that neither he nor anyone else has this thing free will.



Nothing of JB, he was born in sin from the day it was made to be living, to be carnal flesh is the body of sin. So even before Eve sinned already showed that it was the sin of coveting the fruit and wishing sin against the commandment.

Just lacked a law to bring to light his sinful nature and when God gave soon appeared sin, for without law sin is not taken into account and everything looks good, but the function of the law is that it give knowledge of sin .

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed When there is no law.
Romans 5:13

Therefore by the deeds of the law there Shall the flesh be Justified in his sight: for by the law {} is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20

A very simple form will show that Adam never had free will and if there were reasons for this would be after sinning, and never before.

1st test
Génesis3: 7 - ... were then opened their eyes, and knew that they were naked ...

-So they were physically blind? Of course not, but it shows that they had entenddimento of good and evil.

.
2nd test:

Genesis 3:11 - ... Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

Here God shows that the only way they have knowledge of their nakedness was eating from the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil and so fled in fear UNDERSTANDING what they had done.


3rd try

Genesis 3:22 - .. And God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil;

God Himself testifies that the man was now rather like God in the knowledge of good and evil, thus showing that he knew nothing before.


Enough for now!

Adam was not born in sin. Adam was created without sin by God. Everything that God created was good and there was no sin in what He created. God set that tree as a reminder to Adam and Eve that mankind was subject under God despite that mankind was created in His image and likeness. As for knowledge of good and evil, Adam already knew what was good and evil. He knew that eating from that particular tree was wrong (bad). The only thing that Adam did not have was to determine what SHOULD be good and evil. God is the only one who makes that decision. Man's role is to trust God's decision of what He determines to be good and evil.

After Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they now become the decision makers. Man now determines for himself what is good and evil.....and as a result, abortion was legalized, and so on. In God's eyes, the human body is beautiful and good. After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve saw the human body in a different light as God views it. Instead of beauty, they found the sin of lust.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Who said it was he who chose the name of the animals by himself when he did not even know you were naked?

Also the events are not in chronological order but by subject, and without the knowledge of good and evil in the tree could ever have given the name to anything (except the Spirit of God).

So we see God creating man and woman in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 goes back to show how it was the creation of man and woman.

And only after sin is that had the knowledge of good and evil, and not before. And if it was because we sinned all humanity paid for your sin?

I'll show you more ahead that neither he nor anyone else has this thing free will.



Nothing of JB, he was born in sin from the day it was made to be living, to be carnal flesh is the body of sin. So even before Eve sinned already showed that it was the sin of coveting the fruit and wishing sin against the commandment.

Who taught you that rubbish. I think you're mixing and matching beliefs. Read the word of God again. :)

 

[CarlosB]

So what you are saying is that God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, secretly hoping they would and then punishing them for disobeying Him, even though He really wanted them to in the first place? Wow that sounds like an abusive parent to me. Do you realize that you are making God's Creation that He declared to be Good, reliant on Evil to perfect it? So here is my question for you - why would Adam and Eve need to know the difference between Good and Evil if evil was never introduced into the world?

The senecio you are suggesting, btw is taught within Mormonism not Christianity.

I am not what I am saying, is what is written, or quoted a passage that was not written? And I believe in what is written, not as some who claim to believe, then do not accept what is written.

The damage was introduced into the world, so now there was darkness and the abyss devil, but only by law is that evil was appointed and came to light, as without law there is no sin, but it is the law that gives knowledge of that is sin.

What shall we say then? {} Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. {Lust: or, concupiscence}
Romans 7:7


Eva had sin in it so coveted what God had forbidden (if ever give good tree bad fruit), but only by the law is that his sinful nature came to light. But no law is all good because evil is not appointed.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed When there is no law.
Romans 5:13

Yes, the evil that is perfect ourselves, even Christ had to be perfected to experience evil and death, because in heaven there is no weakness or bad. For even the evil is good for Christians and all that was created contributes to your well.

Who in the days of his flesh, When he had Offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him que was able to save him from death, and was heard in que he feared; {in that ...: or, is his piety} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things he Which Suffered;
Hebrews 5:7-8

3 showed strong evidence that simple and there is free will in Adam, show me where I went wrong in these passages rather than go looking for passages that have nothing to do with it or create arguments against what is written.

1st - He opened his eyes when he ate and met ...
2nd God says: Who told thee that thou wast naked ....
3rd God said man is now like us knowing good and evil ..

These are the passages dealing with the topic, are false to themselves or recognizes that annihilates free will

Adam was not born in sin. Adam was created without sin by God. Everything that God created was good and there was no sin in what He created. God set that tree as a reminder to Adam and Eve that mankind was subject under God despite that mankind was created in His image and likeness. As for knowledge of good and evil, Adam already knew what was good and evil. He knew that eating from that particular tree was wrong (bad). The only thing that Adam did not have was to determine what SHOULD be good and evil. God is the only one who makes that decision. Man's role is to trust God's decision of what He determines to be good and evil.

After Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they now become the decision makers. Man now determines for himself what is good and evil.....and as a result, abortion was legalized, and so on. In God's eyes, the human body is beautiful and good. After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve saw the human body in a different light as God views it. Instead of beauty, they found the sin of lust.

I thought I believed in the Bible, so I was wrong.

Already showed you the reasons, now only God can convince.

As Adam was in the image of God, once again you are wrong, for he says:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let Them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing que creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:26

So, was the image of God as a figure in dominion over the beasts of the earth, not in spirit and knowledge, so God himself confirms what you stubbornly ignore saying:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become the one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take Also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:22

Only after sin is that man became like God in knowledge of good and evil.

Moreover, if it were created in the image of God was like Christ and Paul shows that it:

Howbeit que {was} first Which is not spiritual, but That Which is natural, and Afterward That Which is spiritual.
The first man {is} of the earth, earthy: the second man {} is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:46-47

Adam was still carnal and earthly sin, already done so, while Christ was spiritual and heavenly already from birth, it proves that he was not in God's image in spirit.

So, friend, misses

Who taught you that rubbish. I think you're mixing and matching beliefs. Read the word of God again. :)

Shows my mistake in what I wrote instead of rotulares garbage God's word, because I said nothing except that which is written, unlike you, so far I have not seen anyone agree with what is written, but I only see deny the word

 

[aspen]

You maybe reading what is written Carlos, but you are failing miserably, to comprehend the meaning of what is written.

God gave Adam a job to name the animals - there is nothing written about God helping him or that Adam did not understand how to name the animals - God left it up to Adam's choice.

Adam and Eve did know they were naked - that is why they were hiding from God.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a magic tree - they learned nothing from eating from it's fruit. The serpent tricked them. All they succeeded in doing was breaking their fellowship with God and falling under the curse of the Fall. Without God to tell us, we still would have no idea what Good and Evil are or how to choose between a good choice and a bad choice. Children who are raised by wolves, for example, do not innately understand good and evil because Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

 

[CarlosB]

You maybe reading what is written Carlos, but you are failing miserably, to comprehend the meaning of what is written.

God gave Adam a job to name the animals - there is nothing written about God helping him or that Adam did not understand how to name the animals - God left it up to Adam's choice.

Adam and Eve did know they were naked - that is why they were hiding from God.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a magic tree - they learned nothing from eating from it's fruit. The serpent tricked them. All they succeeded in doing was breaking their fellowship with God and falling under the curse of the Fall. Without God to tell us, we still would have no idea what Good and Evil are or how to choose between a good choice and a bad choice. Children who are raised by wolves, for example, do not innately understand good and evil because Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

[SIZE=10pt]Everything is said on this subject of Adam![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I talked about a specific subject in a specific time on Adam and on events that involved, however I see that some rather than commenting on the topic and passages proposals, fleeing the questions and seek refuge in other passages that have nothing to do with Adam or with its events only to deny what is written in Genesis 3.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Thinking that the scriptures are false by being here I present them here and they are to be true to present them as if the deed could contradict scripture itself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Showed in a simple and firm 3 evidence as Adam had no free will, only using passages of events in genesis 3 and nothing else.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Adam was tasted blind in understanding and only opened his eyes to be aware of their condition after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Proved that God himself says that Adam could only know that he was naked and be aware of sin and so fled, after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Tasted and God himself once again affirms that Adam was now rather like God in the knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Anyway, proved irrefutably that Adam did not have this free will thing, and although I do not reveal more evidence, for they do not believe in that I mentioned will also not deny the other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Just take two fingers of forehead to understand that the tree of knowledge of good and evil, producing knowledge of good and evil who ate it, and so opened the eyes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Because if Adam did understand why there would be a tree of knowledge of good and evil?[/SIZE]

Leave it to you to find that Adam named the animals by himself, his wisdom, when it had just been created, where he studied? What was your school?

So do not you see he was told by the Spirit, and it all happened because he was a figure of Christ, for whom God created everything?

This talk anyone can speak if God so wills, even a stone, until the donkey of Balaam said to fix the prophet, and the donkey had free will to correct the prophet? Open your eyes and let friend to call God a liar, because that is what has made.

[SIZE=10pt]Even a 6 year old would recognize that Adam had no understanding, but when I see that there are people who prefer the costumes will be true, and has no humility to recognize his mistake and will be subject to really fix your only way out of stubbornness so sad that this is so but I have nothing more to say.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The word of God is too precious to waste time with those who do not value it.[/SIZE]

 

[aspen]

Eating of the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fool's bet! It is like offering an animal the freedom of eating food, but using the food as bait for a trap. You could call the trap, The Bait of the Knowledge of Freedom and Slavery is you want to, but the only result is death,

Knowledge that leads to death is a tragedy NOT a pathway to godhood.

Reading the Bible without education leads to Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness error.

 

[CarlosB]

Eating of the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fool's bet! It is like offering an animal the freedom of eating food, but using the food as bait for a trap. You could call the trap, The Bait of the Knowledge of Freedom and Slavery is you want to, but the only result is death,

Knowledge that leads to death is a tragedy NOT a pathway to godhood.

Reading the Bible without education leads to Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness error.

Against the truth there is no wisdom nor knowledge, but rebellion and sin, and no one can refute the fact that I wrote, because only quoted what was written, but the problem is always the same aspen, is the problem of election, God hides and reveals a few others as he wants.

See how free will blind men in the "god of free will," it may be that God will also open your eyes,

See also loves to accuse others and other religions when their status is not better, it is sad!

 

[aspen]

'but the problem is always the same aspen, is the problem of election, God hides and reveals a few others as he wants.'

The mantra of the heretic

 

[Selene]

[SIZE=10pt]Everything is said on this subject of Adam![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I talked about a specific subject in a specific time on Adam and on events that involved, however I see that some rather than commenting on the topic and passages proposals, fleeing the questions and seek refuge in other passages that have nothing to do with Adam or with its events only to deny what is written in Genesis 3.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Thinking that the scriptures are false by being here I present them here and they are to be true to present them as if the deed could contradict scripture itself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Showed in a simple and firm 3 evidence as Adam had no free will, only using passages of events in genesis 3 and nothing else.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Adam was tasted blind in understanding and only opened his eyes to be aware of their condition after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Proved that God himself says that Adam could only know that he was naked and be aware of sin and so fled, after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Tasted and God himself once again affirms that Adam was now rather like God in the knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Anyway, proved irrefutably that Adam did not have this free will thing, and although I do not reveal more evidence, for they do not believe in that I mentioned will also not deny the other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Just take two fingers of forehead to understand that the tree of knowledge of good and evil, producing knowledge of good and evil who ate it, and so opened the eyes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Because if Adam did understand why there would be a tree of knowledge of good and evil?[/SIZE]

Leave it to you to find that Adam named the animals by himself, his wisdom, when it had just been created, where he studied? What was your school?

So do not you see he was told by the Spirit, and it all happened because he was a figure of Christ, for whom God created everything?

This talk anyone can speak if God so wills, even a stone, until the donkey of Balaam said to fix the prophet, and the donkey had free will to correct the prophet? Open your eyes and let friend to call God a liar, because that is what has made.

[SIZE=10pt]Even a 6 year old would recognize that Adam had no understanding, but when I see that there are people who prefer the costumes will be true, and has no humility to recognize his mistake and will be subject to really fix your only way out of stubbornness so sad that this is so but I have nothing more to say.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The word of God is too precious to waste time with those who do not value it.[/SIZE]

Adam had free will, but you did not want to listen to our answers. Adam had free will all along because all during that time when God told him not to eat from that tree, he obeyed God and avoided the tree until a serpent came down and convince them otherwise. You don't need anyone to come down and convince persons who don't have free will to eat from the fruit. But the fact that the serpent needed to convince them to eat the fruit showed that they had the free will to choose to either eat the fruit or not.

 

[Sargento]

I'll leave my thoughts here about the topic....

I did not read all the posts but I guess almost everyone agrees that Adam had free-will.

Well, I do not find free-will in Adam...
...saying that Adam had free-will is saying that he wished to die...
... if he wished to die and knew what was he doing why was he ashamed and hide after eating the fruit?

 

[aspen]

You can possess free will without foresight! We have free will today and we also have no idea how our choices will affect us or the world around us for days or even years.

 

[Sargento]

If you don't know which is good and which is bad how is that a free choice?

It's like choosing something with our eyes closed ... and to make it worse the fruit was desirable to them.

It's like "you're free to choose between to things you cannot distinguish but one of them looks good"... that's not FREE will, that's constrained will (desire for sin) associated with blindness (no understanding)... that's like an animal... does what it feels like which depends on the nature GOD gave him.

They were gifted with desire for the forbidden fruit and eyes closed so they didn't understand the consequences of sin ... that's what you call FREE-will?

So not only they're WILL was not free like they didn't even had the understanding to know what they were choosing so they might at least want to resist it.

They were has free not to sin has a rock not to fall... all of they're chances were blocked.

 

[Groundzero]

Who said it was he who chose the name of the animals by himself when he did not even know you were naked?

Also the events are not in chronological order but by subject, and without the knowledge of good and evil in the tree could ever have given the name to anything (except the Spirit of God).

So we see God creating man and woman in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 goes back to show how it was the creation of man and woman.

And only after sin is that had the knowledge of good and evil, and not before. And if it was because we sinned all humanity paid for your sin?

I'll show you more ahead that neither he nor anyone else has this thing free will.



Nothing of JB, he was born in sin from the day it was made to be living, to be carnal flesh is the body of sin. So even before Eve sinned already showed that it was the sin of coveting the fruit and wishing sin against the commandment.

Just lacked a law to bring to light his sinful nature and when God gave soon appeared sin, for without law sin is not taken into account and everything looks good, but the function of the law is that it give knowledge of sin .

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed When there is no law.
Romans 5:13

Therefore by the deeds of the law there Shall the flesh be Justified in his sight: for by the law {} is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20

A very simple form will show that Adam never had free will and if there were reasons for this would be after sinning, and never before.

1st test
Génesis3: 7 - ... were then opened their eyes, and knew that they were naked ...

-So they were physically blind? Of course not, but it shows that they had entenddimento of good and evil.

.
2nd test:

Genesis 3:11 - ... Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

Here God shows that the only way they have knowledge of their nakedness was eating from the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil and so fled in fear UNDERSTANDING what they had done.


3rd try

Genesis 3:22 - .. And God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil;

God Himself testifies that the man was now rather like God in the knowledge of good and evil, thus showing that he knew nothing before.


Enough for now!

What illogical hubbub is this???!!!
If Adam DID NOT have a free will, he WOULDN'T have SINNED!
Go and study some stuff which is actually going to help you and others, not foolish questions.

If you don't know which is good and which is bad how is that a free choice?

It's like choosing something with our eyes closed ... and to make it worse the fruit was desirable to them.

It's like "you're free to choose between to things you cannot distinguish but one of them looks good"... that's not FREE will, that's constrained will (desire for sin) associated with blindness (no understanding)... that's like an animal... does what it feels like which depends on the nature GOD gave him.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Clearly dying was NOT a GOOD thing. The choice is rather obvious. Don't eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and live, or eat the fruit of the tree and die.
Man had a choice to make. And he made it. If he didn't have free will, HE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD AN OPTION.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Adam had free choice? He knew what he was doing and was aware of what was sin and death?

It is the sovereign will of God that man choose whom he will serve.

No, Adam did not understand all the consequences of his actions, neither do we. Only God is omniscient, only God knows all the ramifications of everything we do, say, or even think. So our duty, as it was for Adam, is to trust God and obey Him, understanding that our omniscient God loves us, only wants the best for us, and He alone knows what is best.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Selene]

If you don't know which is good and which is bad how is that a free choice?

It's like choosing something with our eyes closed ... and to make it worse the fruit was desirable to them.

It's like "you're free to choose between to things you cannot distinguish but one of them looks good"... that's not FREE will, that's constrained will (desire for sin) associated with blindness (no understanding)... that's like an animal... does what it feels like which depends on the nature GOD gave him.

They were gifted with desire for the forbidden fruit and eyes closed so they didn't understand the consequences of sin ... that's what you call FREE-will?

So not only they're WILL was not free like they didn't even had the understanding to know what they were choosing so they might at least want to resist it.

They were has free not to sin has a rock not to fall... all of they're chances were blocked.

We're not the ones to determine what is good and what is bad. God already determined that eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil would be bad and bring death. The role of Adam and Eve is to trust God on what He determines to be good and bad. God gave them the free will to either place their trust on Him or not......to obey or not.