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Afalse teaching?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, May 2, 2011.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I believe that Peter's sermon on Pentecost has been taken out of context and used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. This article is my attempt to prove that it has to be read “IN CONTEXT.“

    (was it to the Jews, the Gentiles, or both?) (IMHO = In my honest opinion)

    Acts 2:31-38 (NKJV)
    31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
    32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
    33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
    34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
    'The Lord said to my Lord,
    'Sit at My right hand,
    35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'

    In the above Peter is testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the promised Christ.

    36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

    Peter tells the Jews they have crucified the Lord of Glory. The Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone """for crucifying Jesus."""

    38 ""THEN"" Peter said to “”THEM,”” "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned.

    The Jews were to fulfill a Jewish ritual of water cleansing (water baptism), a ritual under the Law of Moses, and at the same time they were to 'acknowledge' Jesus as the Christ by performing a water cleansing ritual (baptism) in His name.

    39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

    Peter's sermon included verse 39 which was taken from Joel 2:28-29 and was about the ""promise of the Holy Spirit"" that was to be “”given to the Jews no matter where they were”” Verse 39 was to assure the Jews that their sin of rejecting Jesus would be forgiven and that they would also be given the Holy Spirit (see verse 38). Joel 2:28-3:1

    Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)

    Peter's sermon has been used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. It has become a “FORMULA” to be repeated in order to be saved. I also know that some will reject this writing. But IMHO I don't think Peter's sermon is appropriate or valid for this age of grace and those that use it are preaching a sermon that was preached to the Jews, those that had Christ crucified, as if it also applies to the Gentiles. IMHO, that is a blatant falsehood because it is not the truth.

    Then how is one saved in this age of God’s grace? Rom 10:8-13

    8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
    12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
    13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." NKJV

    There is nothing in Rom 10:5-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance.

    Richard
     
  2. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Hello Richard,

    After reading your thoughts I pondered your motives, which I find misleading. I ask "why would someone look to reduce the Lord's command in Mark 16:16" When the example of baptism is so prevalent in the Lords teaching and of the Apostles.

    No doubt here in Acts 2 Peter is convincing the Jews of the Messiahship of Jesus: Acts 2:22-36. Under the command of Christ we know baptism is the first act of obedience after believing: Acts 8:12,36-39; 9:18; 10:47,48; 16:15; Luke 24:49. These obeyed: Acts 2:41.

    Romans 10: 5-13 is the confession (understanding) from ones mouth. And what are they confessing?

    The one true baptism.

    You may want to consider the language of Rom 10:7 it has "all" its foundations in Baptism. Who will descend into the deep?" (That is to bring Christ up from the dead) Baptism is the death, going down into the water (full submersion) and the resurrection (coming up) to newness of life.

    Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth... It is and open declaration from the lips showing a sincere belief within, and on this man could one be saved. Jesus is Lord who God raised from the dead. I hope you don’t believe that Rom 10:9 is all that a man/woman must believe to be saved? Its a summary of the type of character who understands Jesus is Lord, because he is the Son of God, sent by God to be Saviour and King over all mankind (Phi 2:11); And that the Father exalted him to His own right hand (Acts 2:33-36).

    The Baptismal act follows this confession, and what is the confession "the things of the Kingdom and the things of the Name" (Acts 8:12). Baptism is an outward show of an inward belief that God raised him from the dead and you acknowledge God's seal upon him, for it the basis of his resurrection that the apostles proved that Jesus indeed was Christ (Acts 2:31,32,36; 13:35-38).

    I ask Richard please do not dilute this wonderful work of baptism.

    It's the Lord doing and it marvellous in our eyes.

    Alethos
     
  3. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Alethos, just because you think water baptism is marvellous does not mean I should think the same thing.

    I think the free gift of salvation is marvellous and do not feel it necessay to diminish His work on the cross with a work of man. If man has to do anything to complete salvation under the gospel of grace then it is not grace. The man does something to get it, to pay for it.
     
    Rach1370 likes this.
  4. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- You can of course feel free to minimize the need to be baptized, but Jesus' felt it was important and after he did it God said, "this is My Son, with whom I am well pleased."


    And Paul, as soon as the scales fell from his eyes and before he began his ministry, was baptized (Acts 9:18).


    Again, feel free to minimize, but people much more Godly than you or I have felt it was important to do......
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Really, what makes them more than me?

    When I read what Jesus told His apostes it is clear to me that Jesus did not come to the Gentlies. He said so out of His own mouth in two places. Why do you not believe Him. He came to the Jews and the Jews rejected him. Only after the Jews continued to reject Him for about 40 years did God turn to the Geniltes and God did not continue a failed program. Salvation though belief, faith, trust and confidence in the shed blood on the cross to obtain salvation was instituded through the gosple of God's grace taught by Paul.

    Look, if some wish to have belief, faith, trust and confidence in a physical action performed by a man to save them that is their choice and I am not going to look down my nose at them as some do to me. I do not believe that salvation is by a religious activity performed by man. I do not think I can save myself by believing what another man thinks I should do.
     
  6. TheWarIs1

    TheWarIs1 New Member

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    Christ came specifically for the lost sheep of the house of Israel

    Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Where do you see he came for Jews?

    He told the apostles to go to the same.
    Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


    You are questioning the importance of water baptism?
    I think we are saved by believing in Christ as our saviour and the ritual of baptism is outward showing and should be done if possible.
    The thief on the cross was to be in paradise that day with Christ and he had not been baptized.

    Off topic but.
    I've witnessed people claiming to believe and get baptized but never really understand the word of scripture.
    Then decades later the spirit hits them and makes all things new and they were just born again.
    I believe they were just mere Followers of tradition before with a belief in a God but never really called.

    .
     
  7. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    The example of Naaman is one such example which you “may” take some learning from, if your eyes are opened to truth.

    I am intrigue to find you share a similar spirit, one which was eventually corrected.

    The need for baptism is born out of our understanding and awareness of a leprous condition called sin. Like Foreigner stated “righteous men” have all responded in like manner for the need to be baptised.

    What makes you and Naaman any different?

    2Ki 5:9 I believe Naaman was thinking 'Look at the wonderful impression I shall make!' But, at the root of his thinking, as is yours, he was... STILL... a "leper"!

    Although your reaction to myself and Foreigner is not quite that of Naamans, it bare a likeness, one which you must take heed.

    2Ki 5:12 he turned and went off in a rage; Naaman was insulted that his “intelligence” had been bought into question. Maybe this is something for you to consider?

    “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!”

    2 Kings 5:13 “some great thing” like Naaman, you are bringing into question the greatness of Baptism as if baptismal washing is a very "little" thing!

    Eventually Naaman was "easy to be intreated" (James 3:17) as seen with his servant girl, his wife, and later his servants (2 King 5:13) they could all approach him and reason with him.

    Contrast this response Nabal in 1Sa 25:17 and we can begin to see the meekness and humility the Father delights in.

    I can only support Foreingner in his comments that greater men (though sinful) humbled themselves under the mighty hand of God, even Jesus himself “to fulfil all righteousness” was Baptised?

    Are you equal or greater than he?

    Alethos
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    No and I have never said I was. You are being deceptive and only trying to paint me in a bad color.

    I will never say I am better than anyone else. Do you say you are better than others. Obviously you think you are better than me and it is because you think you are right and I am wrong.

    As for me I have no claim of righteousness in the flesh. Man can do every work of what he thinks will make him righteous but it will not make him that way. I have the righteousness that God freely gives to those that trust Him. Do you have that same righteousness or is yours earned by what you do?

    If you wish to throw stones at me then rest assured they will return to you. You will treat me with respect if you wish me to treat you with respect
     
  9. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Hi Richard,

    If you receive the reproof in the spirit of Jesus Christ, will it not go well with you?

    reprove one that hath understanding, [and] he will understand knowledge. Prov 19:25

    reprove a wise man, and he will love thee. Prov 9:8


    If you receive my love in the spirit of Christ will not this glorify the Father?

    Alethos

     
  10. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    When did you decide you are my teacher and are in a position that gives you the right to reprove me? Do you have an ego problem? By the way, you are not my god.
    The answer to your question is NO! Men glorify God when they place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in His Son's work on the cross. But that is too simple for the religious.
     
  11. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    I reprove error when I see it; don’t you?

    If you decide not to accept correction in righteousness this is also your decision, although not a wise one.

    You can reject or accept...it appears you have chosen to reject.

    Alethos
     
  12. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I never feel that I am in a position to reprove anyone. People are welcome to believe what they feel is best for them. I state what I have learned and believe, others can believe what they wish.

    I get the impression that it feeds your ego to think you are in a postion to reprove others. That is so sad because as long as that is your attitude you will never be able to see anything but what is in your own mind and you will always be looking down your nose at everyone else. I am not going to take it personally because You do it to others too.
     
  13. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Richard,

    I understand how you might feel this way, I do!

    But the facts are presented before you in the many Scriptures, whether you decide to heed them as I have, for I am only passing onto you what I have also been taught. I perceive you to be very sensitive about correction? I have been corrected on this site before, actually Joseph David gave me a good old brotherly whipping but how did I respond?

    I said "sorry" and moved on.

    Now nothing you have done requires an apology, just acknowledge your reasoning’s in the initial post are not in the spirit of Christ and his baptism.

    I am still confounded why you would take such a position?

    But hey, things sometimes come into our minds and they are not founded upon Godly Teachings, but of man.

    Alethos














     
  14. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I grow tired of your arragance my friend. so let me use your words back at you,

    I understand how you might feel superior to me because of your ego. However, the fact I have presented before you in the many Scriptures, whether you decide to heed them as I have, for I am only passing onto you what I have also been taught by the Holy Spirit. I perceive you to be very sensitive about correction? Now nothing you have done requires an apology, just acknowledge your reasoning’s in your post are not in the spirit of Christ and his baptism (no water) by the Holy Spirit

    I am still confounded why you would take such a position that you think you are so superior in Christ when you don't seem to understand the scriptures?

    But hey, things sometimes take time to be brought into our minds by the Holy Spirit and those teachings that are taught by man seem to get in the way.

    Are we having fun now?
     
  15. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Its not about "fun" Richard, its about 2 Cor 10:8, it appears you mistake my confidence in Jesus Christ for arrogance? Have, I once said you to be arrogant? or have ego? or anything which does not relate to the content within your original post.

    I said you have a spirit "similiar" to Naaman, only in your willingness to make baptism a small thing? Did I misinterpret your oringinal thoughts? if so, explain.

    However, I am not the only one who interpreted your thread in like manner. Forienger, TheWaris1 and myself were likeminded, now, that in itself does not mean we are right! Lets make that clear, however in this regard the Scritures outweigh your original thoughts and intent (in my view). Now if you have something further to add about why we should not seek to uphold Baptism.

    I am listening.

    Alethos
     
  16. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    That is a lie. You don't listen to what I write because you won't hear them. If you take refuge in the words of other men then go to it.
     
  17. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong Richard, but in your opening submission were you trying to reduce the importance of Baptism? I believe you inferred it to be a work of man?

    Yes or No will suffice.

    Alethos
     
  18. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Richard,

    Have you ever considered Acts 18:2 particularly the Jews departing Rome with Romans 6? I see how you are trying to make Baptism a Jewish custom, however, Paul in writing to the Romans believers is now speaking to only Gentiles?

    Maybe this may point you in another direction with your study?

    Alethos
     
  19. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them.

    A man cannot choose to place him/her self in the Ark God has built. He (God) has said that the only way to God is through our faith, trust, and confidence in His Son's work on the cross. I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and a water baptism by man does not MAKE God put a person in Christ.

    The difference between us is that you are pushing a work of man (water baptism).

    I am pushing faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross.

    In the churches, today, people think they do a ritual and that makes God save them. Their faith is in their ritual.

    Galatians 3:1-4
    Justification by Faith (cf. Romans 4)
    3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
    2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?
    NKJV
     
  20. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    :blink: ?????????????????? :blink:
     
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