Afalse teaching?

[Alethos]

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them.

A man cannot choose to place him/her self in the Ark God has built. He (God) has said that the only way to God is through our faith, trust, and confidence in His Son's work on the cross. I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and a water baptism by man does not MAKE God put a person in Christ.



The difference between us is that you are pushing a work of man (water baptism).

I am pushing faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross.

In the churches, today, people think they do a ritual and that makes God save them. Their faith is in their ritual.

Galatians 3:1-4
Justification by Faith (cf. Romans 4)
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?
NKJV

Deal with Rom 6 Acts 18:2

 

[Butch5]

I believe that Peter's sermon on Pentecost has been taken out of context and used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. This article is my attempt to prove that it has to be read “IN CONTEXT.“

(was it to the Jews, the Gentiles, or both?) (IMHO = In my honest opinion)

Acts 2:31-38 (NKJV)
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
'Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'

In the above Peter is testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the promised Christ.

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter tells the Jews they have crucified the Lord of Glory. The Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone """for crucifying Jesus."""

38 ""THEN"" Peter said to “”THEM,”” "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned.

The Jews were to fulfill a Jewish ritual of water cleansing (water baptism), a ritual under the Law of Moses, and at the same time they were to 'acknowledge' Jesus as the Christ by performing a water cleansing ritual (baptism) in His name.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Peter's sermon included verse 39 which was taken from Joel 2:28-29 and was about the ""promise of the Holy Spirit"" that was to be “”given to the Jews no matter where they were”” Verse 39 was to assure the Jews that their sin of rejecting Jesus would be forgiven and that they would also be given the Holy Spirit (see verse 38). Joel 2:28-3:1

Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)

Peter's sermon has been used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. It has become a “FORMULA” to be repeated in order to be saved. I also know that some will reject this writing. But IMHO I don't think Peter's sermon is appropriate or valid for this age of grace and those that use it are preaching a sermon that was preached to the Jews, those that had Christ crucified, as if it also applies to the Gentiles. IMHO, that is a blatant falsehood because it is not the truth.

Then how is one saved in this age of God’s grace? Rom 10:8-13

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." NKJV

There is nothing in Rom 10:5-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance.

Richard

I think there are a few issues with you idea. One, why did Paul water baptize Gentiles? Why did Peter water baptize Gentiles? Actually the historical record is against this idea also. The early church understood water baptism as the point where sins were forgiven and one was born again.

 

[lawrance]

I think there are a few issues with you idea. One, why did Paul water baptize Gentiles? Why did Peter water baptize Gentiles? Actually the historical record is against this idea also. The early church understood water baptism as the point where sins were forgiven and one was born again.

Water Baptism does not mean that you are now one in the Holy Spirit.
But that Water Baptism is all about is the 'hope ' that you will be Baptised in the Spirit of our Lord and Savior and only Christ can do that !
And that comes after the cleansing of sin of water baptism. just as John did it and said that a greater one will come after him and baptise with the Holy Spirit and that John was not worthy to do that ect.
Water Baptising is a cleansing for the preparation for the next step the Holy Spirit.

If someone said that they believe in Jesus that does not mean that that person is in the Holy Spirit. the milk comes first then you grow.
Just a believeth and a full complete confirmation of it is a difference is it not.

 

[RichardBurger]

I think there are a few issues with you idea. One, why did Paul water baptize Gentiles? Why did Peter water baptize Gentiles? Actually the historical record is against this idea also. The early church understood water baptism as the point where sins were forgiven and one was born again.

So we are born again when we do something like water baptism. In other words WE are in control of when we are born again by doing something physical. I won't accept that a person controls who becomes born again. You can believe that if you wish but I will not. In my Bible Paul says the baptism (no water) of the Holy Spirit is all that is required.

 

[Rach1370]

Baptism is the outward showing of an inward change.
I believe it to be important, on so many levels, and think that if someone is saved they should have no reason not to be Baptised....but I also don't believe it is necessary for salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Water Baptism does not mean that you are now one in the Holy Spirit.
But that Water Baptism is all about is the 'hope ' that you will be Baptised in the Spirit of our Lord and Savior and only Christ can do that !
And that comes after the cleansing of sin of water baptism. just as John did it and said that a greater one will come after him and baptise with the Holy Spirit and that John was not worthy to do that ect.
Water Baptising is a cleansing for the preparation for the next step the Holy Spirit.

If someone said that they believe in Jesus that does not mean that that person is in the Holy Spirit. the milk comes first then you grow.
Just a believeth and a full complete confirmation of it is a difference is it not.

I agree to a point. Firstly, when you say baptized in the Holy Spirit, what do you mean? The apostles "received" the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them, however, they were "baptized" with the Spirit at Pentecost. So, I would need to know which event you are referring to. I agree that the cleansing of sins is prior to receiving the Spirit, but again, if Jesus is the example, (which I believe He is), He received the Spirit upon coming out of the water. That is what the early church also believed.

 

[Butch5]

So we are born again when we do something like water baptism. In other words WE are in control of when we are born again by doing something physical. I won't accept that a person controls who becomes born again. You can believe that if you wish but I will not. In my Bible Paul says the baptism (no water) of the Holy Spirit is all that is required.

I'm sorry your not open to accepting a different understanding than your own. However, if I show you from the Scriptures would that be of interest. If you look at John 1:12, John said, as many as received Him He gave the authority to become children of God. So, believing didn't automatically make them Christians, it simply gave the them the authority to become Christians. So, this alone indicates there is more.

Paul doesn't say that baptism of the Spirit is all that is required. On the contrary Paul connects water baptism directly to our participation in the resurrection in Romans 6.

Romans 6:2-5(YLT)
2let it not be! we who died to the sin—how shall we still live in it?
3are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
5For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

The Greek word translated "Likeness" means an image or a representation. Water baptism is a representation or an image of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and our union with Him.They baptism that Paul says makes one a partaker of the resurrection is visible, baptism in the Spirit was neither visible not a representation of Jesus death.

I also would like to ask you what you mean by bpatism of the Spirit?

Baptism is the outward showing of an inward change.
I believe it to be important, on so many levels, and think that if someone is saved they should have no reason not to be Baptised....but I also don't believe it is necessary for salvation.

Many Christians believe that, however, that doesn't change what Jesus and the apposltes taught.

 

[RichardBurger]

I reprove error when I see it; don’t you?

If you decide not to accept correction in righteousness this is also your decision, although not a wise one.

You can reject or accept...it appears you have chosen to reject.

Alethos

Your idea that you reprove what others believe is so ridicules. Who set you up as the arbitrator of Scriptural truth? I guess I am wondering why you have such a high opinion of yourself.

I don't reprove the error of others. I state what I believe and let the chips fall where the land.

 

[Alethos]

Your idea that you reprove what others believe is so ridicules. Who set you up as the arbitrator of Scriptural truth? I guess I am wondering why you have such a high opinion of yourself.

I don't reprove the error of others. I state what I believe and let the chips fall where the land.

Heb 12:11...if received correctly should produce peaceable fruit. We are all wondering why the resistence, especially after so many days have passed.

Read Acts 18:2 and then study Romans 6 your views on Baptism will fall in line with the Apostle Paul and we can move on.

Alethos

 

[RichardBurger]

Heb 12:11...if received correctly should produce peaceable fruit. We are all wondering why the resistence, especially after so many days have passed.

Read Acts 18:2 and then study Romans 6 your views on Baptism will fall in line with the Apostle Paul and we can move on.

Alethos

Have a nice day.

 

[dajoshe]

"Many Christians believe that, however, that doesn't change what Jesus and the apposltes taught."



Jesus taught that His sacrifice wasn't going to be enough to save us? That a third party act by man would also be necessary for our salvation?

 

[Alethos]

Have a nice day.

A peaceable fruit.

The Apostle Paul speaking to Richard Burger (a gentile)

Know ye not (Richard), that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [sup]4[/sup]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [sup]5[/sup]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Rom 6:3,4,5

Not just for Jews Richard, but for you and I also!

Alethos

 

[Rach1370]

Many Christians believe that, however, that doesn't change what Jesus and the apposltes taught.

What about the grandfather, who accepts Christ on his death bed? What about the Muslim in a war torn country who believes and then rushes out to spread the word, not having a church or baptismal to be baptised in? What about the child hooked up to machines in the hospital who finally understands the wonder and gift of Jesus, but cannot be moved? What about those who live where every drop of water is precious, for drinking, for living? What about the Christians living in a country where being Christian is illegal, and just holding a small bible study is risky enough, let alone having a Baptism service....which takes organization and a Baptismal?

See, here's the thing. You say salvation cannot come by faith alone, it must come with both belief and Baptism. But when you make that claim you automatically dismiss the thousands of people who cannot and do not have the opportunity to be Baptised. You cannot say "Oh, I'm sure they are the exceptions" because you are making an absolute statement. Only God can make the distinction and claim of who is His and who is not, you have no way of knowing if a person has the Holy Spirit and redemption. I do not doubt that the Bible teaches that Baptism is a good thing for a Christian to do, and I have been Baptised. But the Bible does NOT teach that it is needed for Salvation....the only thing that is needed for that, is faith in Jesus, and His work on the cross.

 

[Alethos]

What about the grandfather, who accepts Christ on his death bed? What about the Muslim in a war torn country who believes and then rushes out to spread the word, not having a church or baptismal to be baptised in? What about the child hooked up to machines in the hospital who finally understands the wonder and gift of Jesus, but cannot be moved? What about those who live where every drop of water is precious, for drinking, for living? What about the Christians living in a country where being Christian is illegal, and just holding a small bible study is risky enough, let alone having a Baptism service....which takes organization and a Baptismal?

See, here's the thing. You say salvation cannot come by faith alone, it must come with both belief and Baptism. But when you make that claim you automatically dismiss the thousands of people who cannot and do not have the opportunity to be Baptised. You cannot say "Oh, I'm sure they are the exceptions" because you are making an absolute statement. Only God can make the distinction and claim of who is His and who is not, you have no way of knowing if a person has the Holy Spirit and redemption. I do not doubt that the Bible teaches that Baptism is a good thing for a Christian to do, and I have been Baptised. But the Bible does NOT teach that it is needed for Salvation....the only thing that is needed for that, is faith in Jesus, and His work on the cross.

Heb. 6:2 a basic teaching:

"Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) compared to (Gal. 3:22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29).

Jesus commanded "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel which is found in Gal. 3:8 Mark 16:16.

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

We are "baptized into Christ" (Gal. 3:27), into his name Acts 19:5; Acts 8:16; Matt. 28:19).

Without baptism we are not "in Christ", and not covered by the Fathers saving work (Acts 4:12). Although some extreme examples already stated this is left to the Father and Son to judge and not men. We have the command and we are under it!

Peter uses Noah and the ark to demonstrate baptism 1 Peter 3:21.

What happened to those outside of baptism? Luke 17:26,27

The prison Keeper at Philippi "the same hour of the night (he) was baptized...straightway" (Acts 16:33).

Real faith is formed by the Word Rom. 10:17 compare Acts 17:11.

How do you these respond? Once they have learned of their salvation?

Acts 8:26,27,28,29,30,31,32,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40 What is the command?

"As they went on their way, they came unto a certain water", i.e. a place where baptism was made possible (Acts 8:36).

The apostle Paul "forthwith...arose and was baptized" (Acts 9:18; Phil 3:7,8,13,14).

Baptism associates us with the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom. 6:3-5)

I ask you all...

'Why should I not be baptized?

Alethos'

 

[lawrance]

I agree to a point. Firstly, when you say baptized in the Holy Spirit, what do you mean? The apostles "received" the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them, however, they were "baptized" with the Spirit at Pentecost. So, I would need to know which event you are referring to. I agree that the cleansing of sins is prior to receiving the Spirit, but again, if Jesus is the example, (which I believe He is), He received the Spirit upon coming out of the water. That is what the early church also believed.

The Holy Spirit that is in John 1 : 33 is that good enough.

I would say that Jesus is the Spirit and always was, but that water baptism was his being born of water like if it's good enough for him so to you ect.

Born again is John 3 : 5 - 8 and Jesus explains from there on.

No one was in the Spirit of Jesus before they were baptised but for Jesus. they may of been on milk before hand, but not in Christ and able to eat of solid.

 

[Rach1370]

Heb. 6:2 a basic teaching:
"Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) compared to (Gal. 3:22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29).
Jesus commanded "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel which is found in Gal. 3:8 Mark 16:16.
Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
We are "baptized into Christ" (Gal. 3:27), into his name Acts 19:5; Acts 8:16; Matt. 28:19).
Without baptism we are not "in Christ", and not covered by the Fathers saving work (Acts 4:12). Although some extreme examples already stated this is left to the Father and Son to judge and not men. We have the command and we are under it!
Peter uses Noah and the ark to demonstrate baptism 1 Peter 3:21.
What happened to those outside of baptism? Luke 17:26,27
The prison Keeper at Philippi "the same hour of the night (he) was baptized...straightway" (Acts 16:33).
Real faith is formed by the Word Rom. 10:17 compare Acts 17:11.
How do you these respond? Once they have learned of their salvation?
Acts 8:26,27,28,29,30,31,32,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40 What is the command?
"As they went on their way, they came unto a certain water", i.e. a place where baptism was made possible (Acts 8:36).
The apostle Paul "forthwith...arose and was baptized" (Acts 9:18; Phil 3:7,8,13,14).
Baptism associates us with the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom. 6:3-5)
I ask you all...
'Why should I not be baptized?

Alethos'

There is no reason we should not be Baptised. Like communion it is a wonderful way to show others and pledge ourselves to God...a way we remember what He has done for us and of our change in life now that we believe.
But it is not required to become saved.

John Baptised with water, calling for people to repent! Remember what he said:

[16] John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
(Luke 3:16 ESV)

And indeed, Christians, once they receive Jesus as their Saviour and put their faith and trust in Him, receive the Holy Spirit and are saved. It is then that a person is Baptised...indeed it's only after a sinful heart is regenerated that a person has the desire to become Baptised.

We see in Peter that Baptism is important, yes, but it is symbolic, just as communion is. Below is a commentary from John Piper on the subject:

[18] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, [19] in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, [20] because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. [21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
(1 Peter 3:18-22 ESV)


"Does Baptism Save?
Now sandwiched between two great truths in this passage about Christ (substitution for sinners and subjection of enemies) are the words about baptism... In verse 19, Peter reminds the readers that, in the spirit, Jesus had gone to preach to the people in Noah's day, whose spirits are now in prison awaiting judgement. (I don't take the position that verse 19 refers to Jesus' preaching in hell between Good Friday and Easter.) But there was tremendous evil and hardness in Noah's day and only eight people enter the ark for salvation from the judgement through water.

Now Peter sees a comparison between the waters of the flood and the waters of baptism. Verse 21 is the key verse: "And corresponding to that [the water of the flood], baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Now there are some denominations that love this verse because it seems at first to support the view called "baptismal regeneration." That is, baptism does something to the candidate: it saves by bringing about new birth. So, for example, one of the baptismal liturgies for infants says, "Seeing now, dearly beloved brethren, that this child is regenerate, and grafted into the body of Christ's Church, let us give thanks."

Now the problem with this is that Peter seems very aware that his words are open to dangerous misuse. This is why, as soon as they are out of his mouth, as it were, he qualifies them lest we take them the wrong way. In verse 21 he does say, "Baptism now saves you" - that sounds like the water has a saving effect in and of itself apart from faith. He knows that is what it sounds like and so he adds immediately, "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (Or your version might have: "the pledge of a good conscience toward God").

But the point seems to be this: When I speak of baptism saving, Peter says, I don't mean that the water, immersing the body and cleansing the flesh, is of any saving effect; what I mean is that, insofar as baptism is "an appeal to God for a good conscience," (or is "a pledge of a good conscience toward God"), it saves. Paul said in Romans 10:13, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord - everyone who appeals to the Lord - will be saved." Paul does not mean that faith alone fails to save. He means that faith calls on God. That's what faith does. Now Peter is saying, "Baptism is the God-ordained, symbolic expression of that call to God. It is an appeal to God - either in the form of repentance or in the form of commitment.


What is Baptism?
Now this is fundamentally important in our understanding of what baptism is in the New Testament. James Dunn is right I think when he says that "1 Peter 3:21 is the nearest approach to a definition of baptism that the New Testament affords" (Baptism in the Holy Spirit, p. 219). What is baptism? Baptism is a symbolic expression of the heart's "appeal to God." Baptism is a calling on God. It is a way of saying to God with our whole body, "I trust you to take me into Christ like Noah was taken into the ark, and to make Jesus the substitute for my sins and to bring me through these waters of death and judgement into new and everlasting life through the resurrection of Jesus my Lord."

This is what God is calling you to do. You do not save yourself. God saves you through the work of Christ."



So, is Baptism important? Yup. Should Christians do it? Certainly! But will you be denied salvation if you don't or can't? Nope!

 

[Alethos]

So, is Baptism important? Yup. (Essential) Should Christians do it? (Absolutely) Certainly! But will you be denied salvation if you don't or can't? Nope! (Depending on your definition of "dont" & "cant" - Can you look upon the heart? No leave it to the one who can and let him be the judge!)

You are right in saying no power in the water itself, but in the symbol "all" power to enter the saving name! Whether by declaration of faith on a cross! or Jesus himself to fulfil all righteousness for even Jesus was redeemed through the name which was given him!

Take the highest ground and that way many will climb to attain the wonderful view.

Alethos

 

[Rach1370]

You are right in saying no power in the water itself, but in the symbol "all" power to enter the saving name! Whether by declaration of faith on a cross! or Jesus himself to fulfil all righteousness for even Jesus was redeemed through the name which was given him!
Take the highest ground and that way many will climb to attain the wonderful view.
Alethos

The highest ground will always be Christ, and Christ only. You say that many will climb to your lofty view, but by teaching others that Salvation is only gained if one is Baptised, that Christ's work was in itself not enough, you are only deceiving them, not giving them a lofty view. You may say "since baptism is a good thing to do, then no harm will come", but once the door is open to thinking that Jesus is not sufficient, then all sorts of heresy will sneak in, which is harmful to people's souls.

The Peter verse is so important....I'm gonna go over it again..

Baptism doesn't save you, but we demonstrate faith in it.
Baptism is 2 things, historical fact, accompanied by personal faith. The historical fact is that Jesus is God, he lived without sin, died for my sin, He was buried and He rose for my salvation. Baptism is the personal faith, publically demonstrated in historical fact.
When someone gets up and gives their testimony they say "Here's who Jesus is, and here's what He's done for me. He died (under the water) and rose (out of water) for me. My old life is buried for Him (under the water) and my new life is lived for Him (out of water).

You're not saved through Baptism (Baptismal regeneration) you're saved through Christ and Baptism is a means of demonstrating faith in Christ. It's not the getting wet that saves you, it's your faith in Christ that unites you with God.

Peter (1 Peter 3:18-22) says it this way: "not as removal of dirt from the body" -it's not getting wet that makes you saved...makes you a Christian. If so, then Baptism is nothing more than superstitious. This is why some people are so determined to Baptise their babies, even though there's no evidence of it happening anywhere in the Bible. The thought is, if you get the baby wet and if they die, they'll go to heaven. That's superstition, magic and paganism. Christians don't (or shouldn't) believe that.

We believe that once you have a personal faith in Jesus, you demonstrate that by publicly being Baptised and proclaiming that Jesus is the object of your faith and Jesus is the source of your salvation. and that as He rose, you will rise and that as He died, He died for you.

So Peter says it's not the getting wet part that matters so much, although it's important...that's why we still do it. But what matters is an appeal to God for a good conscience. "God, my conscience is clear, I've repented of my sin and I appeal to you for Salvation through Jesus Christ, through the resurrection of Jesus. You should have a clear conscience if you have appealed to God for the forgiveness of your sins through the resurrection of Jesus, that's how you know you're saved and Baptism is a public evidence of this.

To require the cross plus Baptism would mean that Jesus' words "it is finished" were not enough. Jesus would have had to say "I'm atoning for all your sin, and now if you get wet, it'll be finished. That's not what He said.

You say "oh, of course the actual water doesn't mean anything...of course it has no power", but you are, in effect, giving power to it. If the water has no actual 'power', what's the reason that you insist it has to be water Baptism, that it, the act itself that gives us salvation? And if indeed water Baptism will give one salvation, then why was Jesus even necessary? John was Baptising hundreds of people before Jesus died for us.... As I said before, that's superstition and magic...that a thing, this action will give me this... Even something good, something that God has told us to do, can become something unholy if it's given the saving power only Jesus has. Jesus told us the greatest thing, the most important thing for Christians to do is love. In the name of that today we see gay clergy and pastors. They say that they are saved, that they are loving, so they are ok. Mankind is fallen, and we will somehow always find a way to "add on" to what Christ did for us, so that we may partake in our own salvation. Please don't fall victim to that. Christ saves, only Christ.

 

[Alethos]

The highest ground will always be Christ, and Christ only. You say that many will climb to your lofty view, but by teaching others that Salvation is only gained if one is Baptised, that Christ's work was in itself not enough, you are only deceiving them, not giving them a lofty view. You may say "since baptism is a good thing to do, then no harm will come", but once the door is open to thinking that Jesus is not sufficient, then all sorts of heresy will sneak in, which is harmful to people's souls.

The Peter verse is so important....I'm gonna go over it again..

Baptism doesn't save you, but we demonstrate faith in it.
Baptism is 2 things, historical fact, accompanied by personal faith. The historical fact is that Jesus is God, he lived without sin, died for my sin, He was buried and He rose for my salvation. Baptism is the personal faith, publically demonstrated in historical fact.
When someone gets up and gives their testimony they say "Here's who Jesus is, and here's what He's done for me. He died (under the water) and rose (out of water) for me. My old life is buried for Him (under the water) and my new life is lived for Him (out of water).

You're not saved through Baptism (Baptismal regeneration) you're saved through Christ and Baptism is a means of demonstrating faith in Christ. It's not the getting wet that saves you, it's your faith in Christ that unites you with God.

Peter (1 Peter 3:18-22) says it this way: "not as removal of dirt from the body" -it's not getting wet that makes you saved...makes you a Christian. If so, then Baptism is nothing more than superstitious. This is why some people are so determined to Baptise their babies, even though there's no evidence of it happening anywhere in the Bible. The thought is, if you get the baby wet and if they die, they'll go to heaven. That's superstition, magic and paganism. Christians don't (or shouldn't) believe that.

We believe that once you have a personal faith in Jesus, you demonstrate that by publicly being Baptised and proclaiming that Jesus is the object of your faith and Jesus is the source of your salvation. and that as He rose, you will rise and that as He died, He died for you.

So Peter says it's not the getting wet part that matters so much, although it's important...that's why we still do it. But what matters is an appeal to God for a good conscience. "God, my conscience is clear, I've repented of my sin and I appeal to you for Salvation through Jesus Christ, through the resurrection of Jesus. You should have a clear conscience if you have appealed to God for the forgiveness of your sins through the resurrection of Jesus, that's how you know you're saved and Baptism is a public evidence of this.

To require the cross plus Baptism would mean that Jesus' words "it is finished" were not enough. Jesus would have had to say "I'm atoning for all your sin, and now if you get wet, it'll be finished. That's not what He said.

You say "oh, of course the actual water doesn't mean anything...of course it has no power", but you are, in effect, giving power to it. If the water has no actual 'power', what's the reason that you insist it has to be water Baptism, that it, the act itself that gives us salvation? And if indeed water Baptism will give one salvation, then why was Jesus even necessary? John was Baptising hundreds of people before Jesus died for us.... As I said before, that's superstition and magic...that a thing, this action will give me this... Even something good, something that God has told us to do, can become something unholy if it's given the saving power only Jesus has. Jesus told us the greatest thing, the most important thing for Christians to do is love. In the name of that today we see gay clergy and pastors. They say that they are saved, that they are loving, so they are ok. Mankind is fallen, and we will somehow always find a way to "add on" to what Christ did for us, so that we may partake in our own salvation. Please don't fall victim to that. Christ saves, only Christ.

Hey Rach, what is the "danger" of reducing the importance of Baptism? knowing 1 John 2:16?

Lets not remember Christ every week how about once a month or quarterly or maybe once a year like many heathens do in this dark age?

Why not uphold the ideal rather than bring it into question?

Surely you can see I am not going to be dogmatic with you on this subject as you know clearly know where I stand (Mark 16:16)

I am under command.

Alethos

 

[Butch5]

"Many Christians believe that, however, that doesn't change what Jesus and the apposltes taught."



Jesus taught that His sacrifice wasn't going to be enough to save us? That a third party act by man would also be necessary for our salvation?

Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Paul connects water baptism with participation in the resurrection in Romans 6, Peter said, the like figure where unto baptism does save us. The historical evidence follows this, the early church those taught by Jesus and the apostles and their disciples also say that baptism is necessary for salvation.