Yes. Perhaps when he was a young man trying to understand the Commandments. The death penalty is stated in the Torah for many sins and crimes.Are you saying this referred to the time prior to Pauls conversion on the Damascus road
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Yes. Perhaps when he was a young man trying to understand the Commandments. The death penalty is stated in the Torah for many sins and crimes.Are you saying this referred to the time prior to Pauls conversion on the Damascus road
That's not how law works. The law of God is like the law of gravity...it is immutable. The only way to overcome the law of gravity...is with a greater law...the law of flight...or in this case, the law of faith. What I meant about setting the law aside was that Paul didn't consider what he was doing...to see if he was actually fulfilling the law. We must all be lawful in our walk. So this is not about "going back" to the law....but it is about examining what we walk in with grace to see if the law is being fulfilled or not. The law is just a gauge. If we are walking in the power of Christ...then we are fulfilling the law by not sinning against it.
The difference is that the full measure of grace causes us to have victory over sin and therefore fulfills the law. We are only given a deposit at the beginning...and must God seek for the whole amount.
Actually I don't think Paul returned to the law instead of living by the Spirit...he roundly condemns that in others. I think he just examined himself by the law and found that he was not as pure as he ought to be. So he went back to God for more grace.
Yes. Perhaps when he was a young man trying to understand the Commandments. The death penalty is stated in the Torah for many sins and crimes.
The law has no power over a dead man.
Stranger
Neither does sin....but to experience liberation from sin is a further work of the cross....which is also by grace. We need to go to God to complete our entrance into the full grace of God.
Not a further work, as if it has not already been accomplished. The liberation from sin has already been accomplished by God.
No, our experience is based on what God has already completed, and believing Him, and learning to walk in it.
And the Law has no part in this. This is being 'alive without the Law'.
This is of course a popular modern doctrine...but that has no basis in reality. People today don't believe it is possible to no longer sin. Paul was being honest. He was still sinning in spite of having no wish to. It was "sin in him". Then he needed to go to God so that this would become "no longer I (a deeper work of the cross) but Christ in him "....
I will ever wonder why people will do anything to avoid going to God directly. But there is no avoiding this if one wants to conquer sin....and really know the Lord. It happened one day where Jesus healed 10 lepers. Only one returned to encounter Jesus. Jesus asked....where are the other 9? Was it not to be expected that they would present themselves before the One who healed them? I suppose they were just learning to walk, as you say, in their new-found healing? But where is the focus? Where is the intimate knowledge of God in this?
That's right. But it is being alive in the grace that fulfills the law. The law is there to gauge the truth. Grace without truth is deception.
If you want to conquer sin, you can't turn to the Law. All that will do is create more sin and kill you. (Rom. 7:8-9)
Really?
What does being "Lawless" then come to mean?
How does the Law trick anyone?
The law of God doesn't change with grace.
Paul's writings are indeed searching. He did believe he was a good law-keeping...except without realizing it at first he had been covetous...Hi Stranger,
My reference bible mentioned that Paul was either referencing his bar mitzvah or his conversion. To me it doesn't make sense that it was at his bar mitzvah because , as a Pharisee , he beilieved he was ' holier ' than the ordinary people . Outwardly they ' kept the law '. There is no evidence that any of the Pharisees believed they were sinners.
However at his conversion a new awareness of sin would have been realised - that it wasn't just about outward actions, but also inner thoughts, motives and desires. The very law that made him feel self righteous and okay with God , would have suddenly made him aware that he was infact failing the law - that he was a sinner in need of salvation - that he had not in fact been right with God at all.
If you think back to his conversion and how he was left ' without sight ' this must have been a very searching time for Paul, suddenly everything he had ever believed was in question- isn't this what happens when we ourselves are ' converted ' and ' convicted ' by the Holy Spirit.
I remember , prior to conversion, believing I was a ' good ' person - never killed anyone, never stolen anything ect - even in my non Christian world the Ten Commandments played a role and I believed I was okay with God. I wasn't - that was a wake up call- I was blind.
Sorry have no idea if any of this is relevant to your discussion - I get a bit bogged down with Pauls writing sometimes !
Rita
Therefore whatever affect it has on our lives must also be holy, just, and good
You asserted that LAW creates more sin, yet the only reason we see more crime is because crime is not punished properly according to Gods commands. If you don't believe in keeping Gods commandments (for whatever reason...) then where does the current LAW of grace protect those who will become victims of crime (the innocent abider to Gods Law or children/minors etc) ?Tell me what you consider as Scripture, and I will answer.
Stranger
Yes. So how can the LAW itself then trick someone? I do not understand the point you made.The law of God doesn't change with grace.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
it kills people is that a good thing, is that holy is that good for men to die in their sins as you seem to believe we should..