Alive without the Law (Rom. 7:9)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

B

brakelite

Guest
nor the righteousness of Christ and a sinner..
How would you suppose that the righteousness of Christ is manifested in your life?

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


If the righteousness of Christ, and sinfulness, as you said above, are contrary one to another, (and they are), then if one has within him the righteousness of Christ, would not one's life be such as is in harmony with the requirements of the law as a fruit of that indwelling Spirit of obedience per Romans 6:16 above? If not, to what purpose is there in receiving Christ's righteousness other than a radical change in lifestyle and thought?
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
How would you suppose that the righteousness of Christ is manifested in your life?
well one day, when you give yourself to Christ, you will find out.. all you have done so far, is try justify the law, so that you can justify yourself by your works, which is what teh law is all about, "look at me God am i not good".

We are justified by Christ by grace through faith, the law is not about faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

but it is what your "religion" demands of you, and so you must abide by teh doctrines of your religion.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

again

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

which is what religion is all about.. teh flesh and works, bondage..

PS all I have to boast of is "Jesus Christ crucified".... to Him be all the Glory. Amen.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What a gutless response.
Oh you want me to sound like this man

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

sorry I cant, you want to die in your sins the law is there just for you, go ahead you have a lot of company.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Seems it was for nothing to a lot of people.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,557
7,585
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Not a further work, as if it has not already been accomplished. The liberation from sin has already been accomplished by God.

No, our experience is based on what God has already completed, and believing Him, and learning to walk in it.

And the Law has no part in this. This is being 'alive without the Law'.

Stranger
What God has done for us in Jesus is a different work to what he is doing in us by his Spirit. These are distinctly different activities yet related. To confuse these is to embark on a path of misunderstanding, particularly the expression 'it is finished'. This misunderstanding bears the fruit of being trapped in sin and not being able to find an experiential way out.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What God has done for us in Jesus is a different work to what he is doing in us by his Spirit. These are distinctly different activities yet related. To confuse these is to embark on a path of misunderstanding, particularly the expression 'it is finished'. This misunderstanding bears the fruit of being trapped in sin and not being able to find an experiential way out.

As I said, not a further work as if it had not already been accomplished. "It is finished' means it is finished. This means all the work of salvation has been finished and any work that progresses on in the lives of believers is based upon the finished work of Christ.

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Oh you want me to sound like this man

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

sorry I cant, you want to die in your sins the law is there just for you, go ahead you have a lot of company.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Seems it was for nothing to a lot of people.
What a cop out. If you cannot testify that God has power to change lives for the better what hope can you offer the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the sinners that are crying out for some hope and freedom from the bondage of Satan? Is that not what Christ promises? Are you denying the promises of God on account of some false humility that denies giving God glory?
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What a cop out. If you cannot testify that God has power to change lives for the better what hope can you offer the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the sinners that are crying out for some hope and freedom from the bondage of Satan? Is that not what Christ promises? Are you denying the promises of God on account of some false humility that denies giving God glory?
Cop out, go condemn yourself and the world through your unbelief and sin, you sit there and demand all come under the law, you show us all you have no confidence in Him, you have proved you love the law more than Christ it is all you speak of, you try to make liars of us all, you walk in constant condemnation, you wont even leave you religion for Christ, just like the Israelites that didnt want top leave Egypt than complained in the desert because they though God brought them, out to die, you have absolutely no idea of what Christ has done but you would rather believe the lies of religion than ask Him who is the truth,

and while you are complaining and walking in unbelief, there are men women and children even now going to heaven seeing Christ even God not because have have done anything they simply just believed God and are covered in His righteousness, but that takes faith, and so many on this forum have constantly shown they have none,
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree. While lost, Paul knew the Law, and in his eyes concerning the Law, he was blameless. Then he was saved by Christ, made alive unto God. Made alive without the law. But then for some reason, as he would have struggled more with law than any believer having been a great keeper of the whole law, he went back to the law. And it killed him.

I mentioned earlier here of a new thought of mine, maybe not to anyone else, that the Law never did lead Paul to Christ. Christ literally brought him kicking and screaming. And Paul, who considered himself blameless before the Law, was now born-again. So whenever the point in time was that Paul went back to the Law, he had no reason to think it would kill him as he didn't see it killing him before. What a surprise he got. Now that he was in a right relationship with God, he saw himself as he truly was. A great sinner. And the Law not only found him guilty but empowered sin in him.

Stranger

Maybe consider, not why Paul said he was killed by the sword of God but how it maybe fits into God’s overall plan. Consider Saul was an enemy of God. We may not want to believe that but Saul was an enemy who stoned Stephen. The word fully disclosed this: Acts 22:7-8
[7] And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [8] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Saul was an enemy of God and therefore he sowed seed of the enemy of God. God said He would cut off all the names of His enemies and their seed would not be sown anymore ...that their name would fall (perish) and not rise again. Saul becomes Paul, and sows Christ. A dead man doesn’t sow. It is important, since Christ seed increases ...His name going forth and prospering to the full measure. Not Paul’s name: The Lord’s namesake. Paul said it again and again he built on no other foundation, but the foundation of Christ. All other foundations are overturned and destoryed ... It is vital that Paul sowed Christ, and no further Saul. Saul was slayed by the sword. He increases, while we decrease.
 
Last edited:

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
As I said, not a further work as if it had not already been accomplished. "It is finished' means it is finished. This means all the work of salvation has been finished and any work that progresses on in the lives of believers is based upon the finished work of Christ.

Stranger


The opposite is true. We need a further step of faith (or many steps for some) to move into the finished work of Christ. You are making this about us instead of about the Lord. His work is finished...ours is just begun.

He that has begun a good work...not a finished work as you say.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The opposite is true. We need a further step of faith (or many steps for some) to move into the finished work of Christ. You are making this about us instead of about the Lord. His work is finished...ours is just begun.

He that has begun a good work...not a finished work as you say.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

No, not so. Once one is born-again, the work is finished. All other work rests on the fact of that finished work.

Quite the contrary. You are making it about us instead of His finished work.

With every believer....every one who has placed faith in Jesus Christ....the work is finished on their behalf. In God's eyes they are everything He wants them to be due to the work of Christ on the Cross. In their experience, they may not appear to be so. But that doesn't matter. Go tell it to their Father. Tell their Father they don't measure up. Tell their Father that His only Son's death was not sufficient for them. Tell Him something else was needed. And, good luck with that.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: mjrhealth

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No, not so. Once one is born-again, the work is finished. All other work rests on the fact of that finished work.

Quite the contrary. You are making it about us instead of His finished work.

With every believer....every one who has placed faith in Jesus Christ....the work is finished on their behalf. In God's eyes they are everything He wants them to be due to the work of Christ on the Cross. In their experience, they may not appear to be so. But that doesn't matter. Go tell it to their Father. Tell their Father they don't measure up. Tell their Father that His only Son's death was not sufficient for them. Tell Him something else was needed. And, good luck with that.

Stranger


This kind of logic is what is infecting the powerless church of today. It's about a religious status that has no reality in the Spirit.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Those who think Christ's work was finished at Calvary reject Him as High Priest.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Those who think Christ's work was finished at Calvary reject Him as High Priest.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Guess who His word is....
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This kind of logic is what is infecting the powerless church of today. It's about a religious status that has no reality in the Spirit.

No, that kind of truth is lacking in the powerless churches today. "It is about a religious status"? Where in the world do you come up with that?

The believer must see that his position with God has been totally accomplished by the Cross. Thus, he then has the freedom to work out his salvation through experience. But his experience does not negate his position.

We are already accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6) In fact, in God's eyes, we are already glorified.

(Rom. 8:29-30) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

So, do you look 'glorified' to yourself at this time? No, of course not. Your still working out your salvation in your experience. But, your walk of salvation is based on the completed work of Christ for your salvation.

Stranger
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No, that kind of truth is lacking in the powerless churches today. "It is about a religious status"? Where in the world do you come up with that?

The believer must see that his position with God has been totally accomplished by the Cross. Thus, he then has the freedom to work out his salvation through experience. But his experience does not negate his position.

We are already accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6) In fact, in God's eyes, we are already glorified.

(Rom. 8:29-30) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

So, do you look 'glorified' to yourself at this time? No, of course not. Your still working out your salvation in your experience. But, your walk of salvation is based on the completed work of Christ for your salvation.

Stranger


You are being misled by the wording of the bible that seems to fit with your idea. Many are called but few are chosen. There is a difference between being willing and being worthy. God knows who will run the race and win. These are the overcomers. God has predestined that there will be overcomers....He has foreseen this. There are many who claim Jesus as their Master and saviour but to whom Jesus says...I never knew you. They run unlawfully....by the power of the flesh. They claim great things...but God is looking for people who walk in Spirit and truth...not just doctrines. They profess Christ but have no love in them. There are many "bible" Christians...or doctrinal Christians who walk in human beliefs rather than in the power of faith. Your scheme makes no such distinctions. You have not yet understood the narrow way.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are being misled by the wording of the bible that seems to fit with your idea. Many are called but few are chosen. There is a difference between being willing and being worthy. God knows who will run the race and win. These are the overcomers. God has predestined that there will be overcomers....He has foreseen this. There are many who claim Jesus as their Master and saviour but to whom Jesus says...I never knew you. They run unlawfully....by the power of the flesh. They claim great things...but God is looking for people who walk in Spirit and truth...not just doctrines. They profess Christ but have no love in them. There are many "bible" Christians...or doctrinal Christians who walk in human beliefs rather than in the power of faith. Your scheme makes no such distinctions. You have not yet understood the narrow way.

Now that is a classic statement. "You are being misled by the wording of the Bible that seems to fit with your idea." Oh that I might continue to be so misled.

I would suggest that if it seems to fit, you might consider it.

I do understand the narrow way. The narrow way is the entrance, Jesus Christ alone. But once you have entered you are brought into a large place. (Ps. 18:19) "He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me. "

I am not negating our experience, our walk of salvation. You, however are negating the finished work of Christ.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Now that is a classic statement. "You are being misled by the wording of the Bible that seems to fit with your idea." Oh that I might continue to be so misled.

I would suggest that if it seems to fit, you might consider it.

I do understand the narrow way. The narrow way is the entrance, Jesus Christ alone. But once you have entered you are brought into a large place. (Ps. 18:19) "He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me. "

I am not negating our experience, our walk of salvation. You, however are negating the finished work of Christ.

Stranger


Not at all. But you are leaving Jesus as a footnote in your quest to follow Paul...whom you are misunderstanding. It is the modern view that we should listen to Paul and leave Jesus out. But there is a warning from Peter about those who ignore Jesus in order to claim things based on Paul who is at times difficult to understand. But Jesus speaks quite plainly. The Christian walk is an agonistic experience of struggle...until one breaks into the kingdom life...which is as you say...a wide place.

So then you are on to something here...but we must be careful to not claim something before we ought.
It is about scale.The devil would have us claim the finish line is at the first step. He fears an army of saints who actually walk in resurrection power. That power IS the wide place in the Spirit.

There are few if any new believers that walk in resurrection power....unless as a sample. We are each to go to God to buy the field (as per the parable of the kingdom)...which costs us everything. So then the sample is there to draw us fully into His life and strength, and presence. Very few of us will do that. And this is made harder still because of false doctrines that claim the end of a race at the first step.

Then the question is...are you just deceived and being sincere...or worse....are you an agent that would seek to destroy the power of the faithful?

Have you experienced this resurrection power...that overcomes all sin? Jesus said the entrance is narrow....but so is the way. You neglected that part.

Mat 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You would ignore the difficulty and challenge of this and make it as nothing...routine really. Why mislead?
 
Last edited:

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not at all. But you are leaving Jesus as a footnote in your quest to follow Paul...whom you are misunderstanding. It is the modern view that we should listen to Paul and leave Jesus out. But there is a warning from Peter about those who ignore Jesus in order to claim things based on Paul who is at times difficult to understand. But Jesus speaks quite plainly. The Christian walk is an agonistic experience of struggle...until one breaks into the kingdom life...which is as you say...a wide place.

So then you are on to something here...but we must be careful to not claim something before we ought.
It is about scale.The devil would have us claim the finish line is at the first step. He fears an army of saints who actually walk in resurrection power. That power IS the wide place in the Spirit.

There are few if any new believers that walk in resurrection power....unless as a sample. We are each to go to God to buy the field (as per the parable of the kingdom)...which costs us everything. So then the sample is there to draw us fully into His life and strength, and presence. Very few of us will do that. And this is made harder still because of false doctrines that claim the end of a race at the first step.

Then the question is...are you just deceived and being sincere...or worse....are you an agent that would seek to destroy the power of the faithful?

Have you experienced this resurrection power...that overcomes all sin? Jesus said the entrance is narrow....but so is the way. You neglected that part.

Mat 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You would ignore the difficulty and challenge of this and make it as nothing...routine really. Why mislead?

What makes you think I ignore the difficulty and make it as nothing?

Stranger