All cultures accepted...except the Southern.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know the civil war was not all about slavery, but taxes and states rights, and perhaps other things I don't know about.

Also I believe there is an agenda against the white race here in America, I know the South has it's culture and heritage and you want to preserve that.

Do you actually think The United States Of America would have been better off divided?

When Southron States decided to secede from the Union is when you became a traitor.

-JohnPaul

It would have been better for the Southern people.

How did secession make us the traitor? Secession wasn't illegal. You had northern states that had threatened to secede earlier in history. Every state came into the 'United States' freely.

Let me cite you this old document called the 'Declaration of Independence'. "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal status to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitles them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Such a separation was anticipated and provided for by many of the states when they formed the Union. The delegates from Virginia were more clear than any other of this right. Quote is from a paper, (A Theological And Political View Of The Doctrine Of Secession, Al Benson, Jr., 1995). This quote he gave was taken from ( St. George Tucker, Blackstones Commentaries Vol. 1, Appendix, Note D, #6., pages 160-161). "We the delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected...do, in the name and behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known, that the powers granted under the constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression."

In Bensons same article he gives another quote from Abraham Lincoln. "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right --a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." (The Real Lincoln, Charles L.C. Minor, p.66)

So, again, why is the South a traitor because she seceded from Union of States?

Stranger
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I know the civil war was not all about slavery, but taxes and states rights, and perhaps other things I don't know about.
There should never have been a Civil War. That was one of the stupidest decision that was ever made. It solved nothing (just like all wars) and produced a lot of unnecessary bloodshed and hatred.
Also I believe there is an agenda against the white race here in America
A very small number of hateful people is promoting this agenda. If they were all prosecuted for sedition, that could end this nonsense.
Do you actually think The United States Of America would have been better off divided?
That might have been the best solution because the cultures are indeed different. It could have prevented a lot of bloodshed and animosity. It would also have been best for Canada if Quebec had been allowed to secede, provided they could no longer benefit from Canada to the disadvantage of the rest of Canada.
When Southern States decided to secede from the Union is when you became a traitor.
Secession is NOT treason. However it would seem that by adopting the Constitution of the United States, the states lost their sovereignty.
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not agree Enoch111, accept for there never should’ve been a Civil War.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because you raised up arms against the American government.

You gave a simple statement ignoring everything I showed you in post # (21).

You are a perfect example of an ostrich with its head in the sand and ass in the air.

Again, if secession was a legitimate process, which I showed you it was, how is the South the traitior?

You just saying so, means nothing.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnPaul

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not agree Enoch111, accept for there never should’ve been a Civil War.

You don't agree, you say. Yet, you never provide any reason to support your disagreement. You and Episkopos are two peas in the pod. You just repeat what has been told you.

Plus, you are now changing your story. First you say the South was traitor when she seceded. Now you say the South is traitor because she took up arms.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about. You just have to come up with something as soon as you learn something. You also are but a mule, like Episkopas. You don't know anything. You just go in the direction others tell you.


Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnPaul

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There should never have been a Civil War. That was one of the stupidest decision that was ever made. It solved nothing (just like all wars) and produced a lot of unnecessary bloodshed and hatred.

A very small number of hateful people is promoting this agenda. If they were all prosecuted for sedition, that could end this nonsense.

That might have been the best solution because the cultures are indeed different. It could have prevented a lot of bloodshed and animosity. It would also have been best for Canada if Quebec had been allowed to secede, provided they could no longer benefit from Canada to the disadvantage of the rest of Canada.

Secession is NOT treason. However it would seem that by adopting the Constitution of the United States, the states lost their sovereignty.

The states did not lose their sovereignty when they adopted the Constitution. Who told you that? The U.S. Federal Govt.?

Stranger
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't agree, you say. Yet, you never provide any reason to support your disagreement. You and Episkopos are two peas in the pod. You just repeat what has been told you.

Plus, you are now changing your story. First you say the South was traitor when she seceded. Now you say the South is traitor because she took up arms.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about. You just have to come up with something as soon as you learn something. You also are but a mule, like Episkopas. You don't know anything. You just go in the direction others tell you.


Stranger
You seem to repeat yourself in every thread. I simply do not agree with you, the U.S. government should never Have appeased the South by letting you erect statues or keep your false flag.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You seem to repeat yourself in every thread. I simply do not agree with you, the U.S. government should never Have appeased the South by letting you erect statues or keep your false flag.

Yes, I know you don't agree. The problem is you don't know why you don't agree. You are simply repeating what others told you. You know nothing of the why or wherefore.

It isn't a matter of appeasement. The state has the right to erect the statues it wants to.

Why is the Confederate flag a 'false flag'? Silly statement. Is every state flag a false flag?

See, you ignore the legitimate secession question. You ignore the act of the South taking up arms. Now you turn to the monuments and flags. You can't answer the questions to anything.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnPaul

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The states did not lose their sovereignty when they adopted the Constitution. Who told you that? The U.S. Federal Govt.?
Not the Federal Govt but the way the Constitution is set up and interpreted by the Supreme Court.

'Are the states of the Union sovereign? Some people throughout our history have taken the position that they are. The thirteen colonies were recognized as states by Great Britain in 1783. Jefferson and many other so-called "states' rights" men have held at one time or another that the states were sovereign and that the Nation was not sovereign, because only a league of states instead of a federation.

Marshall established the proposition that the nation had as high a status at least as the states, but he seemed to give comfort to the position that both the states and the nation were sovereign, each within its own sphere. This made our government a federation of states, and is known as a dual form of government. More recently the Supreme Court has been taking the position either that the nation is sovereign but that the states are only quasi-sovereign.

The provision in the
Constitution "that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate", and the provision that an amendment legally proposed shall be valid "when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states", seem to support the theory that the states are sovereign; but there are other facts which point in the opposite direction.

It has already been pointed out that the states have no external sovereignty, either as to other nations or as to other states. There are likewise important limits on their internal sovereignty. Important sovereign powers have been delegated to the federal government and denied the states. Only the United States can punish for treason. The states cannot punish for treason. Yet treason is the one offense against sovereignty.

The citizens of the United States owe paramount allegiance to the federal government. The citizens of the Southern states could not justify their secession on the ground of allegiance to their states. Many powers of the states are subject to the judgment of the Supreme Court. The Eighteenth Amendment binds Connecticut and Rhode Island, who did not vote for it, as much as though they had voted for it. It is true that the states exercise the sovereign powers of police, taxation and eminent domain, but public callings exercise the power of eminent domain, and it is not yet thought that public callings are sovereign.

It is true that states through their legislatures enact statutory law and through their courts make and apply common law, but so do cities, and no one contends that cities are sovereign. Hence it would seem that as a practical matter, both from the standpoint of authority and from the standpoint of principle the theory that the states are sovereign is no longer tenable.'

https://www.repository.law.indiana....erer&httpsredir=1&article=2252&context=facpub
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I know you don't agree. The problem is you don't know why you don't agree. You are simply repeating what others told you. You know nothing of the why or wherefore.

It isn't a matter of appeasement. The state has the right to erect the statues it wants to.

Why is the Confederate flag a 'false flag'? Silly statement. Is every state flag a false flag?

See, you ignore the legitimate secession question. You ignore the act of the South taking up arms. Now you turn to the monuments and flags. You can't answer the questions to anything.

Stranger
Stranger I like your post. Peace be with you and the Southron White folk.:)
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,348
31,367
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I know you don't agree. The problem is you don't know why you don't agree. You are simply repeating what others told you. You know nothing of the why or wherefore.

It isn't a matter of appeasement. The state has the right to erect the statues it wants to.

Why is the Confederate flag a 'false flag'? Silly statement. Is every state flag a false flag?

See, you ignore the legitimate secession question. You ignore the act of the South taking up arms. Now you turn to the monuments and flags. You can't answer the questions to anything.

Stranger
While you know that I disagree with you in other areas, here my own knowledge of the history of the civil war is on your side.

Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union at all costs, and was not only unwilling to sacrifice it because of a point of law but was willing to go to war and did. According to the law of the land, as I have understood it, secession was a legal recourse and as you mentioned there was a precedent for it already in the short history of this nation.

Both sides could have handled it better to avoid the massive spilling of blood and destruction of property that did occur.

Leaders on both sides called on God to be with them. I guess we really got what we asked for and as they saw in their own day the evil fruit which resulted, we are still seeing more evil fruit as some dredge up history today when all of the original instigators on both sides are long since dead.


Although perhaps secession was a legal recourse, the fact of the matter is that the South lost... not because they were completely wrong as some would still argue, but because they did not have the resources or man power to prevail against the northern states over the long haul.

Like the Indians who were here first and like the blacks who had been involuntary slaves, the South of that time had some good arguments for their "side" but for us it is be history from which we should have learned some hard lessons. But not so...!

Forward we should be wanting see it as God sees it and wanting to go His Way. But...most people are seeing primarily their own selfish viewpoints and working to wherever that leads them and us.

Right or the wrong we cannot change history. All of those who did it right and all of those who did it wrong on the question of our Civil War are dead. Their course is finished and their judgment is finished. They all already have their reward or punishment. Let them be! Be they Abraham Lincoln, or General Bedford Forrest or for @Stranger, William Quantrell, they are gone and further discussion or fighting [physically or otherwise] about them will not change where they are now.


To fight a new war [or even to heatedly argue] because of past injustices of long dead people against other long dead people would be a new height in foolishness... but the alternative is?

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

As for me? Along with Joshua I hope to find my Way with the Lord and wherever He leads me:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" Joshua 24:15
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Enoch111

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union at all costs, and was not only unwilling to sacrifice it because of a point of law but was willing to go to war and did. According to the law of the land, as I have understood it, secession was a legal recourse and as you mentioned there was a precedent for it already in the short history of this nation. Both sides could have handled it better to avoid the massive spilling of blood and destruction of property that did occur.
You are quite correct. It was totally senseless to go to war, and it diminished Lincoln. A peaceful solution could have been worked out if all parties had a mind to avoid bloodshed.
Although perhaps secession was a legal recourse, the fact of the matter is that the South lost... not because they were completely wrong as some would still argue, but because they did not have the resources or man power to prevail against the northern states over the long haul.
Had the South recognized that they needed external allies to win, there was Great Britain, France, and Spain (all colonial powers) all of whom would have been happy to help (provided they got something in return).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and amadeus

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While you know that I disagree with you in other areas, here my own knowledge of the history of the civil war is on your side.

Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union at all costs, and was not only unwilling to sacrifice it because of a point of law but was willing to go to war and did. According to the law of the land, as I have understood it, secession was a legal recourse and as you mentioned there was a precedent for it already in the short history of this nation.

Both sides could have handled it better to avoid the massive spilling of blood and destruction of property that did occur.

Leaders on both sides called on God to be with them. I guess we really got what we asked for and as they saw in their own day the evil fruit which resulted, we are still seeing more evil fruit as some dredge up history today when all of the original instigators on both sides are long since dead.


Although perhaps secession was a legal recourse, the fact of the matter is that the South lost... not because they were completely wrong as some would still argue, but because they did not have the resources or man power to prevail against the northern states over the long haul.

Like the Indians who were here first and like the blacks who had been involuntary slaves, the South of that time had some good arguments for their "side" but for us it is be history from which we should have learned some hard lessons. But not so...!

Forward we should be wanting see it as God sees it and wanting to go His Way. But...most people are seeing primarily their own selfish viewpoints and working to wherever that leads them and us.

Right or the wrong we cannot change history. All of those who did it right and all of those who did it wrong on the question of our Civil War are dead. Their course is finished and their judgment is finished. They all already have their reward or punishment. Let them be! Be they Abraham Lincoln, or General Bedford Forrest or for @Stranger, William Quantrell, they are gone and further discussion or fighting [physically or otherwise] about them will not change where they are now.


To fight a new war [or even to heatedly argue] because of past injustices of long dead people against other long dead people would be a new height in foolishness... but the alternative is?

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

As for me? Along with Joshua I hope to find my Way with the Lord and wherever He leads me:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" Joshua 24:15

Understand it is not a new war. The war has never ceased. Not because the people of the South have been unwilling. The people of the north continue to infringe on our heritage. Our reconstruction has been an ongoing effort by the yankee government.

They just don't stop. They use the minority races to disgrace our monuments and flags and remove them. Then when we protest, they say, as you are saying now, why can't you Southernors just get over it. Yet they are the ones who keep pushing and taking away. So you want us to be silent. Be good little Americans....while they destroy our whole history and culture. Which is what they are doing.

You say we Southernors need to be good little Christians and forget what has happened in the past. Yet all the while the yankee government continues to destroy our people. Because we are Christian, we should go ahead and let them, you say. My people were Christian when they fought the tyranny and despotic yankee government. The yankee government was not Christian. They had long been turned over to a Ghandi type Jesus. A social Jesus. A good man. He was not God, but good for the fellow man. Why do you think they, the yankees, could destroy our Christian churches and make total war on our women and children? They didn't give a rats ass about us being Christian, other then they knew we were different from them.

Amadeus...I respect you as an elder believer. But I will not encourage my Southern people to be passive due to their faith in God. Our faith in God is what demands us to be active. Inaction allows the continuance of what you now see. Do you think the yankee government, with it's minority army mules that it uses, is going to be satisfied with just flags and monuments being removed. Think again. It is just a precursor to coming after the people themselves.

Haven't you ever asked yourself why all those Jews in WWII just lined up and went to the gas chambers without a fight. Well, that is what you are asking us to do.

And that ain't going to happen.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Understand it is not a new war. The war has never ceased. Not because the people of the South have been unwilling. The people of the north continue to infringe on our heritage. Our reconstruction has been an ongoing effort by the yankee government.

They just don't stop. They use the minority races to disgrace our monuments and flags and remove them. Then when we protest, they say, as you are saying now, why can't you Southernors just get over it. Yet they are the ones who keep pushing and taking away. So you want us to be silent. Be good little Americans....while they destroy our whole history and culture. Which is what they are doing.

You say we Southernors need to be good little Christians and forget what has happened in the past. Yet all the while the yankee government continues to destroy our people. Because we are Christian, we should go ahead and let them, you say. My people were Christian when they fought the tyranny and despotic yankee government. The yankee government was not Christian. They had long been turned over to a Ghandi type Jesus. A social Jesus. A good man. He was not God, but good for the fellow man. Why do you think they, the yankees, could destroy our Christian churches and make total war on our women and children? They didn't give a rats ass about us being Christian, other then they knew we were different from them.

Amadeus...I respect you as an elder believer. But I will not encourage my Southern people to be passive due to their faith in God. Our faith in God is what demands us to be active. Inaction allows the continuance of what you now see. Do you think the yankee government, with it's minority army mules that it uses, is going to be satisfied with just flags and monuments being removed. Think again. It is just a precursor to coming after the people themselves.

Haven't you ever asked yourself why all those Jews in WWII just lined up and went to the gas chambers without a fight. Well, that is what you are asking us to do.

And that ain't going to happen.

Stranger
I care about you being Christian, Stranger.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are quite correct. It was totally senseless to go to war, and it diminished Lincoln. A peaceful solution could have been worked out if all parties had a mind to avoid bloodshed.

Had the South recognized that they needed external allies to win, there was Great Britain, France, and Spain (all colonial powers) all of whom would have been happy to help (provided they got something in return).

You are so ignorant of history.

The South hoped for England's help. She was warned by Lincoln not to intervene.

Please do a little research before you speak.

Stranger
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I care about you being Christian, Stranger.

No you don't. But it sounds good.

Don't lose any sleep over me. And do a little study of history. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be ignorant.

Stranger
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No you don't. But it sounds good.

Don't lose any sleep over me. And do a little study of history. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be ignorant.

Stranger
Yes I do Stranger, I don’t say things I don’t mean and certainly not to just sound good.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not the Federal Govt but the way the Constitution is set up and interpreted by the Supreme Court.

'Are the states of the Union sovereign? Some people throughout our history have taken the position that they are. The thirteen colonies were recognized as states by Great Britain in 1783. Jefferson and many other so-called "states' rights" men have held at one time or another that the states were sovereign and that the Nation was not sovereign, because only a league of states instead of a federation.

Marshall established the proposition that the nation had as high a status at least as the states, but he seemed to give comfort to the position that both the states and the nation were sovereign, each within its own sphere. This made our government a federation of states, and is known as a dual form of government. More recently the Supreme Court has been taking the position either that the nation is sovereign but that the states are only quasi-sovereign.

The provision in the
Constitution "that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate", and the provision that an amendment legally proposed shall be valid "when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states", seem to support the theory that the states are sovereign; but there are other facts which point in the opposite direction.

It has already been pointed out that the states have no external sovereignty, either as to other nations or as to other states. There are likewise important limits on their internal sovereignty. Important sovereign powers have been delegated to the federal government and denied the states. Only the United States can punish for treason. The states cannot punish for treason. Yet treason is the one offense against sovereignty.

The citizens of the United States owe paramount allegiance to the federal government. The citizens of the Southern states could not justify their secession on the ground of allegiance to their states. Many powers of the states are subject to the judgment of the Supreme Court. The Eighteenth Amendment binds Connecticut and Rhode Island, who did not vote for it, as much as though they had voted for it. It is true that the states exercise the sovereign powers of police, taxation and eminent domain, but public callings exercise the power of eminent domain, and it is not yet thought that public callings are sovereign.

It is true that states through their legislatures enact statutory law and through their courts make and apply common law, but so do cities, and no one contends that cities are sovereign. Hence it would seem that as a practical matter, both from the standpoint of authority and from the standpoint of principle the theory that the states are sovereign is no longer tenable.'

https://www.repository.law.indiana....erer&httpsredir=1&article=2252&context=facpub

The Constitution existed before the Supreme Court. The yankee government after the War between the States made sure of how the so called 'supreme court' would rule. As they did Congress.

Has the 10th amendment been revoked yet?

Stranger