curtis my question to you is. Who was the prophet writing about? Himself or someone else? Prophets were moved by the HS to write God’s word.
Am I understanding this right? Christians go to Heaven and then return to Earth...
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curtis my question to you is. Who was the prophet writing about? Himself or someone else? Prophets were moved by the HS to write God’s word.
I won't say, "Christians", but will use the Term, "Converted" "IN Christ".
(Meaning, not ALL Christians are Converted, and not ALL Converted call themselves Christians).
Speaking "expressly", of men, (since Jesus' arrival and departure from Earth)....which would apply to you, me, others presently alive.... (Not addressing men Before Jesus' arrival or departure, ie OT men for example)
So...Expressly speaking of men Converted "IN" Christ...
* Our Body, from Natural birth, WAS Spiritually and Secularly, AGAINST God.
*Secularly, we gain knowledge and learn About God, make choices to hear and doubt and believe, or not.
*Spiritually, (at natural birth) we are NOT "WITH" God, thus we are Spiritually dead, TO God".
So, as we hear, (we gain measures of Gods gift of Faith, "for Hearing His Word")... As we believe what we are Hearing, we begin Experiencing; God WITH us. A TASTE.
Of God of what it is LIKE, to have Gods Spirit, "WITH" us and His Blessings.
KEEP HEARING...and a mans Knowledge of Gods Word increases....KEEP BELIEVING what you hear....and Gods "gift of FAITH", Increases. (The man is progressing from "TASTING" to "EATING".)
See? Mans effort to Hear Gods Word...results in Gods Increase of His gift of Faith.
So where is all that "gift of Faith" (precisely going)? Precisely to the "thoughts" of a mans Heart. Why?
* Because a natural born man, has a natural Flesh carnal mind that thinks, (has thoughts) ciphers, makes choices based on Logic, deciding BETWEEN "this and that".
* A Natural born man also has a "natural spirit". What IS a "natural spirit" ?
* A "natural spirit", IS: a natural born mans "TRUTH" in his heart.
(Which is to say...A natural MIND, can think of a lie, deception, and logically choose to carry out a lie, deception, fraud.....While his hearts thoughts, absolutely KNOW, the truth, of what the man is choosing IS deceptive.).
IN that scenario...a man within himself IS in "conflict" with himself....)
Since the MIND is "wishywashy", changing thoughts regularly....the natural carnal mind IS against God ... God requires your (conversation of "Commitment" TO HIM)...your Yes to be Yes and your No to be No (not Maybe, sort of and ...not yes today and no tomorrow.)
So IF and WHEN, any man agrees to Hear, receive measures of Faith, Continues, Faith increases....at some point, a man being filled with Gods faith...electes to "MAKE a CONFESSION of his HEARTFUL....Belief and Faith...to the Lord God.
* THAT...is the moment...
* that man IS "FORGIVEN", by God, for not having believed in the Lord God. (Ie a mans SIN)
* ALSO, "the death" of the mans Body...occurs...(simply called crucified with Christ)...which is IN FACT...that man, is voluntarily Giving their Body unto Death, A Spiritual Death.... A Spiritual Death, that God Accepts as a voluntary Death unto Him, for Him, and He thus fulfills His Promise, TO Change that Body "from corruption" TO "uncorruption", ... and the difficult thing for that man....IS: God is making a Spiritual Change. A mans EYES can not visibly SEE Spiritual things. A man can KNOW it, but not SEE it. So a man Waits until his body is RISEN up, "glorified"... a manifestation the man can THEN SEE.
* God makes other changes in the man as well: new heart (circumcision of the heart), Gods seed, (births the mans new spirit),
Soul "restored" (back to very good), called Saved unto God, and the HIGHLIGHT....Gods Spirit "IN" the man. (Feeding the mans new spirit, a NEW TRUTH...Gods Truth)....
Why is that a HIGHLIGHT?
BECAUSE....the of ONE THING that has CHANGED....
* While the Lords Spirit was "only" WITH a man..."the hearing, Tasting, eating, believing, receiving measure of faith";
...AT ANY TIME, that man could STOP, hearing, tasting, eating, believing, and God would STOP giving that man measures of Faith.
but Once the Spirit of God, "IS WITH 'and' IN" a man, everything changes;
THAT MAN, IS not KEPT in faith, by the mans own power to continue, hearing, beliving, etc.
THAT man IS KEPT in BELIEF, and FAITH-FULLNESS....FOREVER, expressly BY THE "POWER (Spirit) OF GOD FOREVER".
(Which BTW, is the whole meaning and Applicability...of "OSAS'.)
Earthly mens bodys came from out of the dust of the earth.
Earthly mens bodys return to the earth.
The Soul, (in a mans body, called by the mans Name) and the Life in the Soul (Gods breath) .... "IF" SAVED, depart a Dying Body and Go to Heaven, IS WITH the Lord God; to WAIT for the rising, and manifestation of their "uncorrupted" glorified Body.
~ The soul of an "unconverted" man (still with Gods breath of life in it), departs its dying body, and goes to a place....NOT with the presence of God...called Hell.
The "born again spirit" of man, departs his dying body, and goes to Gods hand, IN Heaven, to wait for his body to manifested risen in Glory.
The "unsaved" mans spirit....was never born again....his spirit remained natural...and died with his body.
Earthly body's do not go to High Heaven Heaven, Earth is their habitat. Naturally alive, naturally dead, Spirituallly alive, spiritually dead....Body's alive LIVE on earth. Body's dead, return to the earth.
(We learned a little from the beginning knowledge....God created Heaven and Earth. * We later learn more knowledge. Earth has Levels...surface dust, high mountains, digging to certain depths, very Deep depths under the oceans, Oceans under the land surface, caverns, extremely hot, fire in the center of the earth, and Hell, where undrinkable water is, fires, unfathomable heat is, stench of sulfur, Void of Gods presence. Void of Gods Eye Pleasing beautiful things and FULL of; fully aware Living "unsaved" souls.)
We also learned...Heaven has "levels".
Highest Level, Gods Throne, Pure Light, where No Light can Escape. (Modern scientists call that a Black Hole).
The "sort of Middle Heaven"; the Habitat/ Estate of Gods Holy Angels.
The "lower Heavens", we call the Sky's, that modern men have routinely "traveled", (but not lived) airplanes/rockets.
* Fallen (demonic Angels) cast out of their "estate" (middle Heaven), TO Earth, have free roaming access, TO ; the earth and lower Heavens (sky's), with a few who have been cast further down, to Hell, having no access to the earth's surface or the lower heavens, nor roaming access to All of Hell.
* Holy Angels have access to Earth, Lower Heaven's and their Estate, Middle Heaven.
A saved mans soul, departed out of his physically dead body....Goes to; the "middle" Heavens...Holy Angels Estate.
They are Before the Throne of God, (but my personal opinion, they are not IN Gods High Heaven...) Moreso watching, observing, congregating with and learning acceptable behaviors, protocols, (for lack of a better description)....of Gods Holy Angels.
A "born again spirit" of a man, departed out of his physically dead body, "I believe GO TO the High Heaven TO GOD'S Hand", Kept with Him, as they WAIT for their "glorified Body to be risen up."
Scriptural knowledge, and expressly identified my personal opinion, of where the saved souls goes and the born again spirit departed out of a physically dead body of a "saved and born again" man.
I understand this is a long read, 10-15 minutes. So if you choose to skip, no issue with me. I try to be thorough in specific words and in context regarding the whole of a man.
God Bless,
Taken.
Short answer... Saved souls, Born again spirits in Heaven, will Leave heaven and be imparted back into their body, WHEN their body is Risen up (manifested) in Glory (uncorrupted)
You will likely get a multitude of answers.
(One thing to always keep in rememberance;
Every man is an "individual", and every individual, hears, learns, is diligent and at different individual "distances".
TO your question...I believe, what occured with Adam, is the precursor, to what applies to all of mankind.
God Form-ED, a body, tells me, a completely Formed body.
God called that KIND of body, 'man'.
That completely form-ED body, was neither ALIVE, no DEAD.
THEN - God Blew His breath of Life into the man.
Thus...my understanding is: A body of a manKIND of thing, is completely formed, Has not it's own Living life, until God blows His Breath into the completely formed body.
I believe thaT OCCURS, at birth, WHEN the born thing is severed (umbilical cord) from its dependency on it's mother and then receives Life from God, in a soul, imparted into the completely formed body.
The body, the soul, the spirit....
* Come from different 'sources".
...Body- Dust of existing earth
....soul- Gods Breath
....spirit- Gods Spirit
* Come at different "times'.
...Adam, Form-ED, complete from dust
...Woman, Form-ED, complete from Bone.
....Thereafter, a human, developes over a course of 9 months, (males seed, females seed, god form-ing, from dust of the earth.
* Are "made" changed at different "times'.
Body first - "CREATION" from dust
Soul next - "Gods "MAKING" his creation alive.
Spirit last - After the body of flesh, "Agrees" to become made "alive IN the spirit".
* Are "raised" up at different "times".
Saved souls first...
Quickened spirits...
Lastly glorified bodys...
* Go to different places...
Saved souls go to heaven.
Quickened spirits go to Gods hand.
Dead body's go to the grave, caves, under surface of earth.
Body "and" Soul "and' Spirit... revealed in Scripture....IF not separate things... the revealing would redundant and senseless.
God Bless,
Taken
Jesus' Bodily Death...his body buried.
Jesus' Living soul departed his dying body, and went where all departed souls went...
(Since the beginning of man and death of men)...
Living saved souls, and LIving unsaved souls all went to the center of the Earth....
(Different languages, Hebrew, Greek, call the "place" by different names, by what made the most sense of describing something living men could not physically see"
Jesus gives us the best visual...
A place called Hell, but Divided by a great gulf, that those on either side could not cross over the gulf. One side, called Paradise, which Paradise is "whereever the tree of life is"...(tree of life, first in the Garden of Eden, then in Hell, now in Heaven, and shall be in the Lords Kingdom ON Earth) ... Paradise is always with the Tree of Life, (which is precisely for sustaining the life of a saved soul. And the Place "paradise" is always a place of "comfort".
On the other side of the gulf, was the place of "unsaved" souls. A place of utter Discomfort, misery, chaos, and still exists....However, Saved souls (now go to Heaven, are with the Tree of Life, now called Paradise, are in Comfort, peace, joy,)....
Why now? Actually (the now began) after Jesus' soul Went to paradise IN Hell....AND LEFT. Jesus is FIRST in all things. Once his soul left .... so ALSO COULD saved souls leave.
There is that "interim"... regarding Jesus, that also affected some men.
Jesus' soul returned to his body, and his body raised up, back to living.
Jesus walked about the earth for 40 days, showing men his risen body.
Also was raised up were the body's of ancient men, and Prophets bodys, that had died centuries earlier.... (believer who physically died, believing in God, their souls saved at their death for believing in God and obeying their laws)...their souls didn't go directly to heaven, they retruned to their bodys, and walked about for 40 days with Jesus, for men to see them.
After their walk about, their souls departed their body's, went to heaven, and their body's returned to the grave, WAITING FOR ressurection of their glorified body...
Saints IN Heaven....are saved souls, quickened (born again spirits).
Saints ON Earth....are Converted men....currently having a "spiritually dead", while spiritually alive body"....Kept with Christ. And currently a saved soul and quickened (born again) spirit.
( There are other occurrences in Scripture of physically dead body's have their living souls return to their body's and their bodily life resumes....but they later die,a physical death and their souls goes up to heaven).
So yes, bodies of men were raised up, their living souls, back in their body's and they walked about with Jesus.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Consider the following passage from John's gospel.
John 14:1-4
14 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.”
Jesus is cryptically attempting to tell his disciples that he is about to experience a uniquely wonderful transformation from corruption to incorruption; from mortal to immortal. In order to get to that state of being, Jesus must first suffer and die on a cross, trusting the Father to bring him back from the dead. That's his main point. Nonetheless, he is also saying that the disciples must wait until he comes again to receive them to himself. We don't go to him, he comes for us.
None of us goes to heaven alone. Instead, the entire church goes to heaven together, as Paul writes in his first epistle to the Thessalonians. Those of us alive in Christ are united with those who died in Christ and we go to heaven together to meet the Lord in the air. (no one in Christ is left behind) from that point in time forward, heaven will be our abode.
Consider the creation story. If you hadn't notice, in the first three days God creates domains; then in the next three days God populates those domains. Now, each domain is uniquely suitable for the population that lives there. The domain of water is suitable for fish; the domain of air is suitable for birds; the domain of land is suitable for animals; the domain of outer space is suitable for planets and stars, etc. Not only this, but some creatures can venture into other domains for a limited amount of time.
For instance, some birds can enter the water for a limited amount of time. Some water creatures can live out of water for brief periods. Human beings have developed tools and technology to exist in other domains for brief periods. Even angels can come to earth for brief periods.
So then, when Jesus says, "I go to prepare a place for you" what does he mean? Is he suggesting that he will transform the domain of heaven in order to make it suitable for human habitation? I don't think so. Rather, he is going to the cross in order that God will hear our appeal for mercy and by Gods grace, he will make US suitable to live in heaven.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I believe Paul is talking about John's letter of Revelation.
He was caught up and saw things we still have trouble fully understanding today.
I also believe that the John in question is the Baptist.
That this revelation was given to him and sent him as a trumpet through the wilderness.
The churches hadn't been established yet, but were things that would be.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Even his own death of being beheaded was recoded for those who keep the word of the Lord.
Where was John locked up in prison?
Mar 6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Act 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
Act 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
These in control was calling Jesus' message: Fake News. And they wanted censorship.
They even jailed people for speaking the Word.
And killed them too.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
History repeats itself.. like the circle of life.
And ofcourse this has been debated over and over. But I am convinced in my mind that SAUL knew John the Baptist.
He knew the message and was sent to destroy the way.
But something happened on the way to Damascus...
And the winds began to blow in another direction.
The writing was on the wall. Jerusalem would fall in 70AD.
And then Rome controlled the narrative. Then Martin Luther turned the tide.
And so we go from tide to tide being led out to sea and back to land.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Whatever God creates the devil tries to duplicate.
Deceptions run deep.
He was caught up and saw things we still have trouble fully understanding today.
I also believe that the John in question is the Baptist.
That this revelation was given to him and sent him as a trumpet through the wilderness.
The churches hadn't been established yet, but were things that would be.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Even his own death of being beheaded was recoded for those who keep the word of the Lord.
Where was John locked up in prison?
Mar 6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Act 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
Act 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
These in control was calling Jesus' message: Fake News. And they wanted censorship.
They even jailed people for speaking the Word.
And killed them too.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
History repeats itself.. like the circle of life.
And ofcourse this has been debated over and over. But I am convinced in my mind that SAUL knew John the Baptist.
He knew the message and was sent to destroy the way.
But something happened on the way to Damascus...
And the winds began to blow in another direction.
The writing was on the wall. Jerusalem would fall in 70AD.
And then Rome controlled the narrative. Then Martin Luther turned the tide.
And so we go from tide to tide being led out to sea and back to land.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Whatever God creates the devil tries to duplicate.
Deceptions run deep.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
This is not exegesis what you have put forward here Taken, it is eisegesis; the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.
Riverwalker
Active Member
Yes when we die, we are absent from the body and present with God
And comes:
Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.
And comes:
Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.
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