Amillenialism and Acts 1:11

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Jay Ross

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Jay is pushing doctrines from Judaism, and he's not the only one here doing that. Anyone who pushes the idea that Israel has been restored in the holy land today is pushing that doctrine, and especially when they quote the OT prophets to try and prove it (like Ezek.20).

Davy, please stop misquoting me. I have consistently posted that the "Promised Land" of Gen.15:17-21, was for a defined period of time which would be outside of their ability to understand and it was a solemn sign covenant that when God gave Israel dominion over all of the land as defined in the latter part of Gen.15 that they would know from His keeping of this Solemn Sign Covenant that the inheritance of Abraham and his descendants would be the whole earth as spelt out and described in Rev.21.

I am not the one who is consistently pushing that all the saints of God will end up residing in the Promised Land as defined in Gen.15:17-21. That member is a New Zealander and I certainly have no connection with the people in that land.

Now if you consider Ez.20:40-44 and what it actually states in the Hebrew, then the English Translation should read thus when we understanding the poetical imagery: -

Ezekiel 20:40-44: - 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land/earth, shall serve Me; there, {where they have been scattered}, I will accept them, and there, {where they have been scattered}, I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries/earth where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land/soil, {i.e. the fertile field}, of Israel, into the country/earth for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord God.'"
By changing just a few words in the above passage, they changes the focus from, once more inhabiting the land of Canaan, to, remaining scattered in the whole earth, to be a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. God's statutes with respect to being in relationship with God, is the religion that God requires of Israel first and then all of the peoples of the earth.

The other question that needs to be understood is what does God mean by the expression, "on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel"?

This expression points to God's relationship statutes with Israel which is the basis of their religion and worship of the one true God. All of Israel must submit to the requirements of the "Mountains of Israel", and they are then to teach the gentiles around them about the things of God and His Kingdom to lead them too into a relationship with God such that Israel will become a blessing to all of the Nations of the earth.

This sadly is not the present understanding of the religious scholars of Israel.

Now if you can prove that the above paraphrasing of the selected passage from Ezekiel is flawed, then I will be happy to desist in objecting to what you are posting, but if you cannot, then do not be surprised if I do not stop posting contrary to your biased views.

Shalom
 

CNKW3

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No. The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the LITERAL Tribes of Israel. Notice how Dan is not mentioned, but the sons of Joseph are. The 144,000 are God's fulfillment of His promise to redeem the remnant of the Jews. You'll be surprised how much of Revelation is both figurative AND Literal.
Literal? Yes I would since the book itself claims that it is a figurative book in verse 1.
 

Davy

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Davy, please stop misquoting me. I have consistently posted that the "Promised Land" of Gen.15:17-21, was for a defined period of time which would be outside of their ability to understand and it was a solemn sign covenant that when God gave Israel dominion over all of the land as defined in the latter part of Gen.15 that they would know from His keeping of this Solemn Sign Covenant that the inheritance of Abraham and his descendants would be the whole earth as spelt out and described in Rev.21.

I am not the one who is consistently pushing that all the saints of God will end up residing in the Promised Land as defined in Gen.15:17-21. That member is a New Zealander and I certainly have no connection with the people in that land.

Now if you consider Ez.20:40-44 and what it actually states in the Hebrew, then the English Translation should read thus when we understanding the poetical imagery: -

Ezekiel 20:40-44: - 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land/earth, shall serve Me; there, {where they have been scattered}, I will accept them, and there, {where they have been scattered}, I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries/earth where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land/soil, {i.e. the fertile field}, of Israel, into the country/earth for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord God.'"
By changing just a few words in the above passage, they changes the focus from, once more inhabiting the land of Canaan, to, remaining scattered in the whole earth, to be a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. God's statutes with respect to being in relationship with God, is the religion that God requires of Israel first and then all of the peoples of the earth.

The other question that needs to be understood is what does God mean by the expression, "on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel"?

This expression points to God's relationship statutes with Israel which is the basis of their religion and worship of the one true God. All of Israel must submit to the requirements of the "Mountains of Israel", and they are then to teach the gentiles around them about the things of God and His Kingdom to lead them too into a relationship with God such that Israel will become a blessing to all of the Nations of the earth.

This sadly is not the present understanding of the religious scholars of Israel.

Now if you can prove that the above paraphrasing of the selected passage from Ezekiel is flawed, then I will be happy to desist in objecting to what you are posting, but if you cannot, then do not be surprised if I do not stop posting contrary to your biased views.

Shalom

What is even worse about what you're pushing, is that it isn't even Biblical, but is man's philosophy. The Ezekiel 20 Scripture is not... poetry. The doctrines of men who try to assign a Scripture in God's Word as poetry do so to try and eliminate the literal Messages God gave in it, which often is very, very literal, while showing His joy or His anger being riled because of Israel's rebelliousness. In the case of Ezekiel 20, His anger is riled up because of their rebelliousness, and in the days of Ezekiel the ten tribes of the house of Israel were already in captivity to the Assyrians and the Medes because of their falling into idol worship, and some of them were just a little ways north from where Ezekiel was captive. God sent Ezekiel to them to give them His Message. And that Message is not to be turned into mere speculative poetry.

And when God speaks of His holy mountain, He is speaking of Zion in Jerusalem, in final when He returns (no, I'm not a political Zionist).

Ps 2:6
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
KJV

Isa 2:2-3
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
KJV


Both examples are literal, and will literally occur when Jesus Christ returns to this earth, as written. That is NOT being fulfilled TODAY. As I have said before, that prophecy, and the Ezekiel 20 prophecy under discussion, are only fulfilled when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in our near future.

You also have not addressed this statement you made that shows a different intention than what you've been stating...

Jay said:
"At the moment as you have incorrectly pointed out, the broken stick is presently being joined back together in that the Jewish people look upon each other as only belonging to the House of Jacob and they are looking forward to the day when God will hear their cries and pleas and their repentance for their and their father's iniquities."

I correctly pointed out what today's orthodox Jews have been pushing, especially in Jerusalem, involving the prophecies of the OT prophets about Israel's gathering already being in effect today, when it is not. You say I am incorrectly pointing that out, which is to accuse me of lying.

 
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Jay Ross

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What is even worse about what you're pushing, is that it isn't even Biblical, but is man's philosophy. The Ezekiel 20 Scripture is not... poetry. The doctrines of men who try to assign a Scripture in God's Word as poetry do so to try and eliminate the literal Messages God gave in it, which often is very, very literal, while showing His joy or His anger being riled because of Israel's rebelliousness. In the case of Ezekiel 20, His anger is riled up because of their rebelliousness, and in the days of Ezekiel the ten tribes of the house of Israel were already in captivity to the Assyrians and the Medes because of their falling into idol worship, and some of them were just a little ways north from where Ezekiel was captive. God sent Ezekiel to them to give them His Message. And that Message is not to be turned into mere speculative poetry.

Davy, you are not interested in any other view but your own and your view is the only view that is right. Poetical imagery is not just limited to poetry but can also be found in the "literal" passages as well.

At this point in time, all you are doing is beating the drum that what I or others write is in error. So be it. Any discussion is being killed off by you by your personal attacks against those who you do not agree with.

Have a good day now.
 

Davy

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Davy, you are not interested in any other view but your own and your view is the only view that is right. Poetical imagery is not just limited to poetry but can also be found in the "literal" passages as well.

At this point in time, all you are doing is beating the drum that what I or others write is in error. So be it. Any discussion is being killed off by you by your personal attacks against those who you do not agree with.

Have a good day now.

My view is about understanding God's Word as written, not trying to use God's Word as a route to some philosophical sand castle. You sound more like one practicing Mysticism than keeping to the simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.
 

Jay Ross

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My view is about understanding God's Word as written, not trying to use God's Word as a route to some philosophical sand castle. You sound more like one practicing Mysticism than keeping to the simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.

It seems that you are killing any possibility of a reasonable discussion on this forum. So be it.
 

Davy

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It seems that you are killing any possibility of a reasonable discussion on this forum. So be it.

I studied philosophy in my younger years before I came to Jesus. So I am well familiar with the kind of rhetoric those who push man's doctrines that try to change the simplicity of Revelation 20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect beginning at His 2nd coming.
 

Jay Ross

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I studied philosophy in my younger years before I came to Jesus. So I am well familiar with the kind of rhetoric those who push man's doctrines that try to change the simplicity of Revelation 20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect beginning at His 2nd coming.

Well, Davy, we will begin to know the truth of what is prophetically contained within the Rev.20 chapter within around 25 years time and we will see if your understanding is what unfolds.

Sadly I will probably not be around at that time to see it being fulfilled as my toes will be continually pointing in the wrong direction.