Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

[Davy]

BEWARE OF CONFUSION:

Premillenialism DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN Dispensationalism.


Dispensationalism was an idea created by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain from the false Pre-trib Rapture theory he taught (first time that idea was actually taught in a Christian Church).

Those who stay in The Bible as written with a POST-TRIBULATIONAL coming of Christ to gather His Church are Pre-mill also, BUT NOT Pre-tribulationalists!

What's the difference?

The Bible teaches Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day of this present world. That means AFTER the "great tribulation" He taught (Matthew 24:29-31). But the Millennium (the "thousand years" of Rev.20), only happens AFTER His future return, and that's what it means to be a Pre-Millennialist.

God's Word thus teaches a POST-tribulational coming of Christ to gather His Church, and that then starts His future "thousand years" reign with His elect, which is the Pre-Mill position.

Amillennialism is about a REJECTION of Scripture regarding Christ's future "thousand years" reign per Revelation 20. The Amill position began to creep into the Church in the 2nd century A.D. ALL of the 1st century Church fathers held to the Pre-Mill and Post-trib position they got from Christ and His Apostles.

 

[GEN2REV]

BEWARE OF CONFUSION:

Premillenialism DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN Dispensationalism.


Dispensationalism was an idea created by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain from the false Pre-trib Rapture theory he taught (first time that idea was actually taught in a Christian Church).

Those who stay in The Bible as written with a POST-TRIBULATIONAL coming of Christ to gather His Church are Pre-mill also, BUT NOT Pre-tribulationalists!

Well, some of them may be.

I'm not Pre-Mil and I believe Christ comes after the Trib.

 

[Davy]

Well, some of them may be.

I'm not Pre-Mil and I believe Christ comes after the Trib.

I wrote a bit more on that post about the Amill position.

 

[GEN2REV]

God's Word thus teaches a POST-tribulational coming of Christ to gather His Church, and that then starts His future "thousand years" reign with His elect, which is the Pre-Mill position.

The Bible doesn't teach that at all. Revelation is twisted to create that misinterpreted doctrine.

Amillennialism is about a REJECTION of Scripture regarding Christ's future "thousand years" reign per Revelation 20. The Amill position began to creep into the Church in the 2nd century A.D. ALL of the 1st century Church fathers held to the Pre-Mill and Post-trib position they got from Christ and His Apostles.

Amillennialism does reject the twisting of the symbolic book of Revelation to falsely found the misinterpreted doctrine of a millennium after Christ's return.

No scripture exists to support that doctrine outside of Rev. 20, though there are other passages from other books that are used (with circular reasoning) to support the misinterpretation of Rev. 20.

Anyone who truly wants to know, watch the video in post #180.

 

[Davy]

Well, some of them may be.

I'm not Pre-Mil and I believe Christ comes after the Trib.

It is not correct to group Post-tribulationalists with Darby's Dispensationalism, because Darby's theories of dispensationalism are anchored upon the false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Same thing with the so-called "Church ages" idea, which is another theory that sprang from Darby's dispensationalism.

 

[Davy]

The Bible doesn't teach that at all. Revelation is twisted to create that misinterpreted doctrine.

I strongly disagree.

God's Word teaches a post-trib coming by Christ Jesus to gather His Church, and only then will His future "thousand years" reign with His elect begin. This is why at the start of Revelation 20 it mentions the saints who overcame by not taking the mark of the beast. That mark of the beast is ONLY for the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world, so this is a no brainer.

You simply are listening to something else instead. Not every event written Revelation is out of order. Thus you only call it "twisting" because it doesn't fit the doctrine of man that you've latched onto.

 

[GEN2REV]

I strongly disagree.

God's Word teaches a post-trib coming by Christ Jesus to gather His Church, and only then will His future "thousand years" reign with His elect begin. This is why at the start of Revelation 20 it mentions the saints who overcame by not taking the mark of the beast. That mark of the beast is ONLY for the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world, so this is a no brainer.

You simply are listening to something else instead. Not every event written Revelation is out of order. Thus you only call it "twisting" because it doesn't fit the doctrine of man that you've latched onto.

No.

What you are interpreting, or believing from somebody else's interpretation, from one small portion of Scripture, is contradicted by many other parts of Scripture. If I'm in agreement with many passages that coincide with each other, but contradict the one chapter/passage that you are championing as the foundation of your entire doctrine (that being the Millennial reign), which one of us are more likely adhering to a doctrine of men?

If the weight of Scripture as a whole supports my doctrine, but your doctrine has only a small, controversial, source, the onus is on your doctrine to be proven as legitimate. Yet, every single time somebody wants to prove it, they always return to Rev. 20.

That is circular reasoning. There is no substantial proof of it anywhere else in Scripture.

Another tactic is to assume the legitimacy of Rev. 20 as a proven doctrine and use other passages from elsewhere in Scripture to support parts and pieces of that chapter, but never confirming the concept of a 1,000 year period of time that comes after Jesus' return.

You can't take a passage like 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 and make completely unfounded claims that there is a division of 1,000 years between two of the verses (v.23-24) that come one right after the other.

The Bible does not teach a Millennium doctrine. Man does.

 

[GEN2REV]

Let me ask anybody who supports Pre-Mil. If God is not the author of confusion 1 Corinthians 14:33, which doctrine is more confusing?

Jesus dies, leaving us with His example and message and when He returns, He takes all those with Him to Heaven who followed His example and committed their lives to Him and destroys all sinners and wickedness and rewards His saints with a New Heaven and New Earth...

OR

Jesus dies, leaves for thousands of years, returns in dramatic fashion gathering His people so that they can then continue to live upon the fallen earth, among sinners, for another 1,000 years, then the devil is unleashed to tempt and destroy as many as he can and then Jesus finally does away with devil and takes only those who made it through the extended period of additional trial and testing to eternity, etc.

Which one sounds like the simple Gospel Truth that God intended for humanity?

 

[Davy]

No.

What you are interpreting, or believing from somebody else's interpretation, from one small portion of Scripture, is contradicted by many other parts of Scripture.

That's only hot air, words without any backup in Scripture at all! When you are cornered with being asked to provide Scripture to backup what you say, you do your best to squirm out of it, and just throw out stupid, idiotic statements like the above.

If I'm in agreement with many passages that coincide with each other, but contradict the one chapter/passage that you are championing as the foundation of your entire doctrine (that being the Millennial reign), which one of us are more likely adhering to a doctrine of men?

That's just it, you are NOT in agreement with many Scriptures, but instead go DIRECTLY OPPOSITE of Scripture.

Tell me again that the following means a Pre-tribulational Rapture...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV


You're just a FAKE, and now everyone knows it.

 

[marks]

Let me ask anybody who supports Pre-Mil. If God is not the author of confusion 1 Corinthians 14:33, which doctrine is more confusing?

Jesus dies, leaving us with His example and message and when He returns, He takes all those with Him to Heaven who followed His example and committed their lives to Him and destroys all sinners and wickedness and rewards His saints with a New Heaven and New Earth...

OR

Jesus dies, leaves for thousands of years, returns in dramatic fashion gathering His people so that they can then continue to live upon the fallen earth, among sinners, for another 1,000 years, then the devil is unleashed to tempt and destroy as many as he can and then Jesus finally does away with devil and takes only those who made it through the extended period of additional trial and testing to eternity, etc.

Which one sounds like the simple Gospel Truth that God intended for humanity?

Our ways are not His ways, and His ways are beyond our understanding. You are suggesting we use our human understanding to determine whether or not this certain thing in the Bible makes sense for it to happen? I don't think it works that way.

Only, what does the Bible say will happen? I don't find this to be confusion, I don't know why others would.

The earth will be at least partly transformed after Jesus returns. Israel will be born again, and all the unrighteous will be removed. Mankind will continue under Jesus' direct rule, with one final culling out of those who continue to rebel. You ask what sense that would make? I'd ask what sense does it make to describe all this happening if it's not going to?

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

That's only hot air, words without any backup in Scripture at all! When you are cornered with being asked to provide Scripture to backup what you say, you do your best to squirm out of it, and just throw out stupid, idiotic statements like the above.



That's just it, you are NOT in agreement with many Scriptures, but instead go DIRECTLY OPPOSITE of Scripture.

Tell me again that the following means a Pre-tribulational Rapture...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV


You're just a FAKE, and now everyone knows it.

Awww.

I'd love to see an example of me squirming out of presenting Scripture to back my claims ... or saying anything at all about Pre-Trib Rap.

I haven't even addressed that.

But you do know that.

It's ok. Sometimes your only recourse is to fabricate a false debate to desperately attempt to deflect from your faltering argument.

All's well.

It'd be cool to sincerely discuss these things, but you feel threatened by my case being tight as a drum while yours doesn't hold a drop of water.

God bless.

 

[Davy]

Awww.

I'd love to see an example of me squirming out of presenting Scripture to back my claims ... or saying anything at all about Pre-Trib Rap.

I haven't even addressed that.

But you do know that.

It's ok. Sometimes your only recourse is to fabricate a false debate to desperately attempt to deflect from your faltering argument.

All's well.

It'd be cool to sincerely discuss these things, but you feel threatened by my case being tight as a drum while yours doesn't hold a drop of water.

God bless.

Welcome to my IGNORE LIST, I consider you not as a Christian brother, but as a pagan who is trying to destroy The Word of God.

 

[GEN2REV]

The earth will be at least partly transformed after Jesus returns.

Let's see.

"... the heavens (sky and all heavenly bodies) shall pass away (die, be destroyed, disappear) with a great noise, and the elements (building blocks of matter) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works (buildings and all man-made structures; roads, bridges, etc.) that are therein shall be burned up."

Yeah, I think we can agree the earth will be "at least partly transformed."

You ask what sense that would make? I'd ask what sense does it make to describe all this happening if it's not going to?

It describes it in a book that Jesus Himself prefaces with the statement that He has given the info to His angel in signs and symbols. Revelation 1:1

In a book that the KJV intro states is all about visions and symbolism.

In a book that the author John states many times he was in the spirit during the observation of the things recounted therein.

A book that speaks of many things found nowhere else in Scripture; thus it is highly unconfirmed by other Biblical authors from beginning to end.

Nowhere else in Scripture does it speak, specifically, of the Seals, Bowls, Trumpets OR the 1,000 year period in chapter 20. That is not to say these things are not legitimate, but to make rock-solid interpretations of what, exactly, these things mean, or when, exactly, these things may happen, is like grasping at smoke.

That is what we're dealing with.

 

[GEN2REV]

Welcome to my IGNORE LIST, I consider you not as a Christian brother, but as a pagan who is trying to destroy The Word of God.

Naturally

 

[marks]

Let's see.

"... the heavens (sky and all heavenly bodies) shall pass away (die, be destroyed, disappear) with a great noise, and the elements (building blocks of matter) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works (buildings and all man-made structures; roads, bridges, etc.) that are therein shall be burned up."

Revelation 20:7-11 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It describes it in a book that Jesus Himself prefaces with the statement that He has given the info to His angel in signs and symbols. Revelation 1:1

Revelation 1:1 KJV
1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

G4591
σημαίνω
sēmainō
say-mah'ee-no
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

Total KJV Occurrences: 6
signifying, 3
Joh_12:33, Joh_18:32, Joh_21:19
signified, 2
Act_11:28, Rev_1:1
signify, 1
Act_25:27

John 12:32-33 KJV
32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 18:31-32 KJV
31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

John 21:18-19 KJV
18) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19) This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Acts 11:27-29 KJV
27) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29) Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

Acts 25:26-27 KJV
26) Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
27) For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.

These are the other places this word appears in the New Testament. In each case it means to "make something known", not to "encode it in symbols".

Jesus said "lifted up", the then idiom for crucifixion. Now we'd say he'd get the chair, or the needle, and those are our idioms.

Agabus made it known that there would be a famine, and the disciples responded.

And Festus, specifically, this was to have certain known charges against Paul.

The Revelation is an "uncovering", revealing. The book itself tells us when something is a symbol, and what that symbol means. And in fact unless that is true, your interpretion lacks Scriptural authority.

A great sign appears in heaven, and another great sign, and these are identified as signs, and those signs are defined, and this has Scriptural authority.

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

See, you're lining up Scripture with Scripture. That's great.

You do know that event can only happen once, right?

And it happens exactly when 2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and Matthew 24:29-31 say it does.

Upon Jesus' return.

All the events in 2 Peter 3:10 can only happen ONE TIME. Revelation 20:11 is a restatement of that event.

 

[GEN2REV]

@The Disciple John

Were you wanting to discuss these concepts, John?

 

[GEN2REV]

There is an interesting parallel between Rev. 20:10-15 and 1 Cor. 15:21-27 that is very significant.

More proof of Pre-Mil being a sham.

Take a look.

These verses: Revelation 20:10-11 align with these verses: 1 Corinthians 15:25-27

These verses: Revelation 20:12-13 align with this verse 1 Corinthians 15:21 and these verses 1 Corinthians 15:25-26

And these verses: Revelation 20:14-15 align with this verse 1 Corinthians 15:26

This passage in 1 Cor 15 clearly shows Jesus returning, one resurrection, judgment of all wickedness including death, the turning over of the kingdom to the Father and THE END.

Therefore, if Rev. 20 is a re-stating of 1 Cor. 15, Pre-Mil has a huge problem. Another one, that is.