Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

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GEN2REV

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You have not reconciled all.
And you believe you have, with your book that mixes modern science with concepts of Christianity, obtained a deeper understanding of scripture than those who believe, as scripture plainly states, that Christ has not yet returned?

Hmmm ... Nokay.

You too shall see.
I shall see that nothing in scripture is what it appears to be?

And you're convinced of this because all of your buddies that travel the wide road agree with you on the matter?

I'll stick with my lowly perceptions of plain scripture, thank you.
 

Ronald Nolette

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All the maps that you posted showed was the present day borders of Israel. That proves absolutely nothing.

Hey, I got a proposition for ya. If I could produce multiple verses from scripture that state plainly that Israel already obtained, from God, all the land that was ever promised to them, would you then let go of your pet fantasy that God still owes them land?

I know the answer, but you really need to admit it in front of everybody

That just tells me that you did not even bother to read the post of the maps! One showed the extent of teh land god promised Abraham based on teh bible, and the other showed the furthest extent of land Israel occupied!

God gave them the land as an everlasting covenant! Would you like all the promised God made that teh land belongs to Israel via an everlasting covenant?


I've got your allegory ready as soon as you're ready to face the Truth of scripture on the matter.

Do some soul-searching and prepare yourself to face the hard Truth that you've so long refused to accept and let me know when you're ready for this bombshell.

Lob your bomb and let us see what kind of dud it is.

But here are the maps posted once again :

df5813de7cf81df130ffd5444a5df3d2.jpg


Promised land according to God.

Furthest extent of land occupied by ancient Israel:

R.098a5d273b1c27cf85aff96eaf80a75f


can't wait for you to explain how the second equals the first.
 

GEN2REV

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God gave them the land as an everlasting covenant!
Yes, and as long as they obeyed Him and lived as they were supposed to live, it was theirs.
Lob your bomb and let us see what kind of dud it is.

can't wait for you to explain how the second equals the first.
No need to explain a thing. Joshua cleared it all up nicely.

I'll enlarge parts of it so it's easier for you to comprehend.

(And because you keep ignoring it.)

Are you ready, Ron? Get ready.

"And THE LORD GAVE UNTO ISRAEL ALL THE LAND WHICH HE SWARE TO GIVE UNTO THEIR FATHERS; AND THEY POSSESSED IT AND DWELT THEREIN. ... (NOTHING FAILED) OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; ALL (God's promises to Israel) CAME TO PASS."
Joshua 21:43, 45

"... and ye know in all your hearts and all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. ... all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; ..."
Joshua 23:14-15

Are you ok??

That's heavy duty, huh?

It's alright, man. We all gotta learn somehow.

No apology necessary and no need to explain.

God bless.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Are you ok??

That's heavy duty, huh?

It's alright, man. We all gotta learn somehow.

No apology necessary and no need to explain.

God bless.


Yes but you seem to overlook one little letter! it is "S" in fathers.

All you need do is look at the map and find out that Israel never had control of the Sinai desert or the part of Egypt to the Nile. That is part of the promised land!

If you go back and read your bible you'll find out it was the land of Caanan and not he land God promised Abrahm to Isaac to Jacob forever. There is a difference. You also need to learn context, to Joshua yes all that the Lord promised came to pass. That was not every single promise ever made to Israel. That is hard for allegorists to understand I know, but context defines things. Don't forget there was this little 430 time frame between Israel and the Exodus and promises made during the enslavement that are different from the promises made to Abraham!

Once again look at the map of promise to Abrham and the map of Israel greatest extent. and learn that context shows that the promises in Joshua are not the promise made to Abraham! God can make promises after Abraham to other Israelites and then say He kept all the promises made to them.

Sorry but you still are wrong in your understanding.
 

GEN2REV

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Sorry but you still are wrong in your understanding.
No, not remotely.

You are very deluded.

The elaborate case that you are making, to claim that the verses posted from Joshua don't realllly mean what they say, is not supported clearly by scripture anywhere. You are demanding that we look here, look here too, oh and over here a little as well, but providing no clear and concise scripture that refutes what Joshua literally couldn't have made more plain.

It's a never-ending stubborn refusal on your part to admit that you are absolutely wrong - and it doesn't help that popular Christianity today supports your completely unbiblical positions.

Que sera, sera.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The elaborate case that you are making, to claim that the verses posted from Joshua don't realllly mean what they say, is not supported clearly by scripture anywhere. You are demanding that we look here, look here too, oh and over here a little as well, but providing no clear and concise scripture that refutes what Joshua literally couldn't have made more plain.

No they mean exactly what they say. but what they say is not what you say they say! sorry. Why won't you make serious comment on the fact that the land God promised to Abraham and his seed forever was never occupied by Israel! Are you afraid?

From Genesis :

Genesis 15:6-21
King James Version

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

So tell me when Israel rules the Sinai to the Nile and the modern Iraq area to the river Euphrates? do this and you win. Not even one Israeli historian or any Christiaan historian believes that!
 

ScottA

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And you believe you have, with your book that mixes modern science with concepts of Christianity, obtained a deeper understanding of scripture than those who believe, as scripture plainly states, that Christ has not yet returned?

Hmmm ... Nokay.

I shall see that nothing in scripture is what it appears to be?

And you're convinced of this because all of your buddies that travel the wide road agree with you on the matter?

I'll stick with my lowly perceptions of plain scripture, thank you.
If you are so convinced, reconcile this:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1Cor 15:23
 

GEN2REV

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Why won't you make serious comment on the fact that the land God promised to Abraham and his seed forever was never occupied by Israel! Are you afraid?
Because it is literally irrelevant. And what in the world would I have to be afraid of?

Personally, I don't buy for a second the modern false claim that they never used the entirety of the land; there is absolutely no way to prove that today, BUT the point is that it makes no difference whatsoever.

It is childish silliness to make the case you are making. God delivered on His promises and that's exactly what the verses in Joshua not only state clearly and plainly, but repeatedly - so no joker could come along, at a later date in history, and make any kind of water-holding case that the promises were never fulfilled.

So tell me when Israel rules the Sinai to the Nile and the modern Iraq area to the river Euphrates? do this and you win. Not even one Israeli historian or any Christiaan historian believes that!
In light of the verses from Joshua that have been posted many times now, it makes absolutely no difference.

The Bible
is the Authority on the matter. The Bible states that the promises were fulfilled. That's Alpha and Omega right there.

There's nowhere else to go with the matter. Your movement can continue to work to convince the public at large of your story, but the matter is settled with God. His Word makes that clear. Jesus will not return and grant anybody any land that has already been given by His hand.

It's a lost cause.
 

GEN2REV

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If you are so convinced, reconcile this:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1Cor 15:23
I don't know what you think that verse proves.

Christ hasn't returned yet.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 shows that when He does:

-it is the end = contradicts your position that He has already come.
-He shall deliver the Kingdom to the Father = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed all sinners = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed death = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed ALL ENEMIES = contradicts your position.

Care to explain?
 
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Enoch111

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Personally, I don't buy for a second the modern false claim that they never used the entirety of the land...
According to the Abrahamic Covenant the land given to the twelve tribes of Israel would extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. This has NEVER been true for the nation of Israel. So it is not a "modern false claim" at all. Check Genesis 15. When people refuse to believe what is actually stated in the Bible, they will always end up with false ideas.
 

GEN2REV

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According to the Abrahamic Covenant the land given to the twelve tribes of Israel would extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. This has NEVER been true for the nation of Israel. So it is not a "modern false claim" at all. Check Genesis 15. When people refuse to believe what is actually stated in the Bible, they will always end up with false ideas.
That goes both ways, though, Enoch.

When one looks honestly at the verses from Joshua, it demands that the modern conclusion (and yes, it's a modern conclusion if Joshua made multiple statements to the contrary thousands of years ago) that the land promise was never fulfilled must be reconsidered in light of the plain scripture that God has provided for us on the matter. No modern science, or history or scholarly opinion, can trump scripture. It just simply cannot.

God is the Final Word.

Joshua 21:43-45
Joshua 23:14-15
 
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Davy

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Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Jesus was talking about the temple of His time. Israel rebuilding theyr temple is not Scripture. It is just your opinion.

You are showing your Biblical ignorance, and lack of Bible study...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, 'Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:


13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

KJV

The BRANCH = Jesus Christ

That office of "sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne", is about the Priest-King, which ONLY applies to LORD Jesus Christ, King of kings, and LORD of lords. So that Office cannot apply to ANY other than Jesus Christ.

That above Scripture is why the orthodox unbelieving Jews are prepared to build a third temple today, because they rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah foretold of in Bible prophecy, and instead they still await Messiah, and know he is to build this next temple.

Problem is, this coming Messiah that comes first is to be a fake-Messiah, and not Lord Jesus. So those Jews, and those deceived with them, will worship the WRONG Messiah at the end of this world before Jesus returns. Then when Lord Jesus does... return, He will build the True Temple here on earth, His Millennium sanctuary detailed in Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

And what's truly funny about those on the false pre-trib rapture theory, they don't even realize that future sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 thru 47 is the "house" of John 14 that Lord Jesus said He would go and prepare a place for His elect, because in The Father's "house" are "many mansions"!
 

ScottA

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I don't know what you think that verse proves.

Christ hasn't returned yet.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 shows that when He does:

-it is the end = contradicts your position that He has already come.
-He shall deliver the Kingdom to the Father = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed all sinners = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed death = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed ALL ENEMIES = contradicts your position.

Care to explain?
You seem to have the wrong idea about my position. I am on the road an on my phone, but think it best if I start a new thread when I get back. Meanwhile, no, none of those things you mentioned contradict my position, but confirm it.

On the contrary, your idea (and that of most) that all those things come as a one time future event, contradicts "each in his own order. "
 

GEN2REV

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You seem to have the wrong idea about my position. I am on the road an on my phone, but think it best if I start a new thread when I get back. Meanwhile, no, none of those things you mentioned contradict my position, but confirm it.

On the contrary, your idea (and that of most) that all those things come as a one time future event, 4contradicts "each in his own order. "
Sorry, that was supposed to be verse 23-24. I fixed it.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

It still doesn't make sense that you claim ... verse 24 contradicts verse 23.

How does that work?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Because it is literally irrelevant. And what in the world would I have to be afraid of?

Personally, I don't buy for a second the modern false claim that they never used the entirety of the land; there is absolutely no way to prove that today, BUT the point is that it makes no difference whatsoever.

It is childish silliness to make the case you are making. God delivered on His promises and that's exactly what the verses in Joshua not only state clearly and plainly, but repeatedly - so no joker could come along, at a later date in history, and make any kind of water-holding case that the promises were never fulfilled.

Is your nickname Cleopatra? Because e you are the Queen of "de-nial".:D

but so you know that they never fully occupied what was promised to Abraham and his seed forever all you need do is look at Joshua and the crossing and the land allotted to Israel!

This is the land god gasve to Israel when they entered and they did occupy all this land the Lord promised them in Caanan.

af7349c1ff3e543784ac322fba87c4c1.png
 

GEN2REV

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Is your nickname Cleopatra? Because e you are the Queen of "de-nial".:D

but so you know that they never fully occupied what was promised to Abraham and his seed forever all you need do is look at Joshua and the crossing and the land allotted to Israel!

This is the land god gave to Israel when they entered and they did occupy all this land the Lord promised them in Caanan.
Wow. That's fascinating.

How is it possible for the Bible to contain these verses then? :confused:

"And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it."
Numbers 33:53
"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give ... and they possessed it, and dwelt therein."
Joshua 21:45

How do we have, on the one hand, God telling us plainly in scripture the above, while on the other hand, we have men stating something totally contrary today in modern times and creating an entire false doctrine around it? How is that even possible?

Do you reckon God had no idea that might happen? :eek:
 

Ronald Nolette

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Wow. That's fascinating.

How is it possible for the Bible to contain these verses then? :confused:

"And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it."
Numbers 33:53
"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give ... and they possessed it, and dwelt therein."
Joshua 21:45

How do we have, on the one hand, God telling us plainly in scripture the above, while on the other hand, we have men stating something totally contrary today in modern times and creating an entire false doctrine around it? How is that even possible?

Do you reckon God had no idea that might happen? :eek:


How is it possible? Because you are a careless student of the Scriptures. You see the promised land and automatically think it must mean every time all teh land god promised Abraham. But it doesn't. Joshua was given the caanan land to conquer and inhabit and they did! go back and read your old testament again , mostly the end to Deuteronomy, and Judges and numbers and look closely.

And remember that Israel left the sinai to go into the land of promise and the sinai all the way to the Nile is promised to them. there is 0 evidence that once Israel entered teh Caanan territories they went back and conquered Egypt and took over all the land of Egypt that will belong to them.

Once agina if you remember what God gave to Joshua and how He didvied the land by tribe, you will see it is jsut Caanan land and not all the terrory for Abraham. 2 separate promises!
 

ScottA

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I don't know what you think that verse proves.

Christ hasn't returned yet.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 shows that when He does:

-it is the end = contradicts your position that He has already come.
-He shall deliver the Kingdom to the Father = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed all sinners = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed death = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed ALL ENEMIES = contradicts your position.

Care to explain?

Sorry, that was supposed to be verse 23-24. I fixed it.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

It still doesn't make sense that you claim ... verse 24 contradicts verse 23.

How does that work?
Sorry, that was supposed to be verse 23-24. I fixed it.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

It still doesn't make sense that you claim ... verse 24 contradicts verse 23.

How does that work?
Please see the answer to this issue on the new thread: What is meant by Christ coming to "each in his own order."
 

ScottA

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I don't know what you think that verse proves.

Christ hasn't returned yet.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 shows that when He does:

-it is the end = contradicts your position that He has already come.
-He shall deliver the Kingdom to the Father = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed all sinners = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed death = contradicts your position.
-He will have destroyed ALL ENEMIES = contradicts your position.

Care to explain?
Please see the answer to this issue on the new thread: What is meant by Christ coming to "each in his own order."
 

GEN2REV

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Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

Premillennialists are dispensationalists
who affirm a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Jesus Christ, Revelation 20:6, which merges with and continues on to the eternal state in the "new heavens and the new earth" (Revelation 21).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism#:~:text=Premillennialists are dispensationalists who affirm,earth" (Revelation 21).

Premillennialists adhere to a modern take on Revelation and how it fits into scripture as a whole, contriving a doctrine that doesn't align with Scripture at all.

Amillennialists are those who read Revelation properly and adhere to a doctrine that harmoniously coincides with Scripture and all of its prophetic books relating to eschatology.
 
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