Amillennialism

[blessedhope]

And you cherry picked again>Wormwood your views are Garbage and lets take it to the curb, you takes bits and make it your way not the bibles, so lets take a bit from you> not the whole statement!

 

[blessedhope]

And> By Pastor G. Reckart

The doctrine of amillennialism, or that there is no 1,000 years of literal reign upon the earth by Jesus Messiah, is a Catholic doctrine. Amillennialism was not preached or believed by the Apostles.
The amillennial heresy must pervert Scripture, spiritualize Scripture, and change the Scriptures, for it to even gain a remote possibility of being accepted as true. Everyone who is a Catholic amillennialist will have the wildest spiritualizing stories you have ever heard. And yet most of these do not like or believe several other Catholic doctrines, traditions, and heresies. Why then, do they hold on to this teaching?
The amillennial doctrine came into the Catholic Church by St. Augustine. He in turn got it from being associated with Manichaeanism. He may also have gotten it from Origen who got it from Clement of Alexandria.
Alexandria, Egypt is also where the trinity doctrine was brought by Athanasius to Nicaea. The question here is: did any good doctrine come out of Egypt? It was here also that Monasteries were invented and where *Catholic-Nicolaitian* gnosticsim was incubated under Clement and Origen. Would it not then seem appropriate for amillennialism to come from that very place of apostasy? One thing is certain, ...neither the Catholics or those who teach this Catholic dogma can trace it to Jerusalem and the Apostles. Therefore, they must pervert what did come from Jerusalem and reinterpret the Scriptures of the Apostles, to make their heresy agree with Egypt. And to do this, they must spiritualize what came out of Jerusalem from the Apostles. So when, they get to the Jerusalem text of Revelation 20:1-10, they do the Egyptian trick on it and pervert it.
Amillennialist always persist in bringing up issues that have no bearing on the interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10. Such issues are the book is totally symbolic why not also the thousand years; cannot God own the cattle on 1001 hills; the wicked being all destroyed at the coming of Jesus; one taken and another left; fighting for the Kingdom; the Kingdom not of this world; where do the sinners come from who populate the earth in the millennial; why are their alleged animal sacrifices to Jesus during this time out of Ezekiel's temple; and confusing the end of the world and the final judgment with the coming of Messiah at the end of the judgments of the tribulation.
To make amillennialism work, they spiritualize the battle of Armageddon as being a spiritual fight between the Saints and the devil; they spiritualize the bottomless pit as the heart of a Saint or sinner (only a Saint could seal him up if that is true and in their heart? You figure that out); they spiritualize the mark of the beast as sin or the Roman numerals in the Pope's crown (and yet they claim they took the mark of sin and can still be saved); they spiritualize the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4), as either water baptism, or being born again by faith only, as passing from death to life (the alleged first resurrection); they spiritualize being beheaded (Rev. 20:4), as a person who takes off their head of sin and who puts on a head of Christ or Messiah; they spiritualize the thrones (Rev. 20:4), as being positions as Apostles in the New Testament Church; they spiritualize the 1,000 years of reigning with Messiah as this being a symbolic number to describe the entire Church age however long it will last.
Since they end the world at the second coming of Messiah, they don=t know who those are mentioned: *But the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished*; they never answer who these dead are to be saved *after* the thousand years are finished, if all the dead are saved during the thousand years which they make the Church age?
These spiritualize that the devil is bound in the bottomless pit at Calvary. Some amillenialist claim that Jesus is really Michael the archangel. One famous amillennialist of the Presbyterians (William Cox), said when questioned if this was so, how is it that the devil is out of the pit and waring against the Saints, the Church, and the Apostles, and even has a seat in Pergamos? He replied that all he could figure out was that the devil must be out of the pit on some probation. But if the devil is bound for a thousand years and the thousand years is figurative of the whole Church age, would not the devil then be bound the whole Church age? What devil have these Pentecostals been casting out for the last hundred years? William Cox put his statement about the devil being out on probation in his book on *Amillennialism For Today.* The devil out on probation? What a hoot!
Amillennialist spiritualize the rapture. A real amillenialist does not believe in the rapture and against this they rail vehemently. Most amillennialist take the words *caught up together to meet the Lord in the air* as meaning caught up in euphoria, and the word *clouds* to mean glory. So they hate the so-called rapture doctrine and teach that when Jesus comes to earth every eye shall see him and being caught up in the euphoria of the moment they are ushered into the presence or glory of the Lord ON EARTH, not in the physical air. This scares me, because the antichrist will stir up euphoria and a fake glory and to this many millions will flock. Many spiritualize being changed from mortality to immortality as being filled with the Holy Ghost and that our bodies will not change to one that is spiritual, but be given back immortality.
Now, prior to the Church having existed a thousand years, such a heresy could have claimed this, but the rationality of claiming it now, borders on the insane. And those who lived early in this thousand years like Clement, Origen, Augustine, et al, could make all sorts of allegations but now in retrospect we know they were false and deceived.
And, please note, that in all of their writings, these never did spiritualize the 1,000 years into 2,000 years as done by amillennialist today. They quite expected the earth to last only that 1,000 years and come to an explosive end. But when it did not end in 1000AD, the whole doctrine needed revision. Then it was necessary to invent and correct Clement, Origen, and Augustine, about the millennial being spiritualized to cover the whole Church age.
Since this is just a simple web-site and a few pages on this issue, all of the heresy cannot be treated. And, it is customary for amillennialist that if you do not prove all of their doctrine is false in every aspect of their theory, they will take one or two issues not dealt with as proof the whole doctrine is still valid, and go BACK and take up those portions proven to be false. This proves their dishonesty in handling the Word of God. This demonstrates how slippery an amillennialist can be, and they are not ashamed or timid, to call anyone who exposes their Catholic heresy liars and false prophets. So, keep the e-mail coming folks, my hate mail will as usual be tremendous. Getting rid of Roman riddles seems to be a chore even among the Oneness Apostolic and Pentecostal Churches. Enjoy

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, Your words: “One doesn't look at the various dreams and visions in Daniel and insist that one must follow the other in chronological order because one follows the other sequentially in the book. No, they both refer to the same period of time but God gives different images to highlight different aspects of that same period. That is all I am trying to say.”

I understand that, but it’s the “details” of the prophecies that matter, not how many there are that speak of the same thing.

Your words: “Now, as I see it, these visions in Revelation all focus on the "church age." They all point to the victory of Christ/binding or casting down of Satan and the period of time in which the Church suffers and struggles in the world until Christ returns.”

Here is where some of the confusion might arise. Yes, there are multiple visions in Daniel but as you read through it you can see where one stops, time passes and another begins. Revelation is NOT like that. Revelation is only ONE long, continuous vision. Mostly sequential but with parts that explain in more detail or tell more about a character. They aren’t multiple visions telling the same story.

Your words: “Again, I just cannot accept the chronological approach when you have the world judged multiple times in Revelation and the resurrected Christ in heaven in Rev 6 but being born and caught up to God in Revelation 12. To say it’s just a summary makes no sense to me. Clearly, the point here is that this is a new vision and a new image being displayed.”

The purpose of Rev. 12:1-5 is to introduce who the woman is. Verse 1 is roughly taken from Gen. 37:9. The woman is Israel and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes. Verse 2 speaks of the Messiah about to come forth. Verses 3 &4a introduces Satan and his 4th beast kingdom as described in Rev. 17:3. Verse 4b is going back to the time of Matt. 2:13 where Herod, doing Satan’s bidding wanted to kill the Christ child. Verse 5 is Israel again, represented by Mary and the last part of the verse is depicting the scene from Acts 1:9. Verse 6 is an advance notice of verse 14 with more details provided in the verses between. This section and chapter 13 which introduces in more detail the beast kingdom, anti-christ and the false prophet are not to be taken in sequential order.

Your words: “One final thing, I think the elephant in the room here is how we understand the numbers in Revelation. My view is that the numbers of Revelation are to be weighted, and not counted. The 10 days, 7 eyes, 7 horns, 7 spirits, 10 horns, 7 lampstands, 7 trumpets, 7 seals, 10,000 x 10,000, 144,000, 1,000, 666, 3.5, 42, 12, and so forth are all numbers that are highly symbolic in nature.”

Here’s the clue to learning about prophecy… If what you’re reading makes literal sense, don’t go looking for another sense. If it doesn’t make literal sense then it is probably symbolic. More often than not, if it’s symbolic then somewhere in the text the explanation is given. For example, the 144,000 of Rev. 14 comes from the 12,000 of each of the tribes mentioned in Rev. 7. They both make literal sense, so just accept it. If you try to understand prophecy using YOUR understanding and YOUR intellect, you’ll fail every time because they are spiritual things. 1 Cor. 2:14 – “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” I know what I know because I wanted to know and I asked the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding. I don’t know everything about Revelation, no one does but if you ask him for understanding in a certain part, He will give it to you.

Your words: “I just don’t understand the view that argues that many of the numbers in Revelation are symbolic...and clearly many of the images are symbolic....but then when it comes to certain images or numbers, that suddenly they become precise dates and timeframes that must be counted on a calendar. I believe my view is consistent.
”
I believe my view is consistent as well and in line with all the other prophecies out there. It’s the Holy Spirit that lets us know which are symbolic and which aren’t, but a little common sense is also needed.

Your words: I think we all agree that Jesus doesn’t have 7 eyes and 7 horns.

He did when John was looking at them. The eyes were explained, the horns weren’t, so to be honest, I don’t know what they symbolized.

I think we both agree that some people will not literally have the name of the Lord tattooed on their foreheads.

They will be spiritually but most likely only the angels will see them.

I think we both agree that John wasn’t literally counting out each and every angel and putting the precise numbers circling the throne.

The purpose of that was a comparison. The number of angels COULD be counted, the number of the raptured/resurrected saints in Rev. 7:9 was so vast, they could NOT be counted.

So why does the 1,000 years or the mark 666 and so forth have to be literal numbers or marks?

Because God says so.

I just don’t understand how premillennials determine which images are symbols or spiritual realities and which are "literal" times or physical marks.

It’s really not that hard when you take all of prophecy that we have and combine them into one simple story. Of course, the Holy Spirit helps as well.

 

[Wormwood]

I understand that, but it’s the “details” of the prophecies that matter, not how many there are that speak of the same thing.

Ok, but again, I wasnt trying to elaborate on Daniel's prophecy. I was trying to help you understand how I see the structure of Revelation. One of the problems I have with Dispensational Premillennialism is that it relies so heavily on importing other texts into Revelation in order to try to build its view. For instance, Revelation 20 and the "millennium" says nothing about long life spans, abundant crops, lions and lambs laying down together and so forth. Those ideas are imported into the text in order to construct the Dispensational view of the millennium. Revelation 20 ONLY says that Christ reigns and the devil is bound so he cannot deceive the nations any longer. That's pretty much it. So, I believe, if we are going to understand a passage of Scripture, we need to look primarily at the passage and not import other, completely unrelated texts to try to create something that is not explicitly taught in the text.

Here is where some of the confusion might arise. Yes, there are multiple visions in Daniel but as you read through it you can see where one stops, time passes and another begins. Revelation is NOT like that. Revelation is only ONE long, continuous vision. Mostly sequential but with parts that explain in more detail or tell more about a character. They aren’t multiple visions telling the same story.

Except for all the islands and mountains fleeing and the sky rolling up like a scroll in Rev. 6....but then Jesus is born in Rev 12? Again, I showed very clearly how the world clearly ends about 4-5x in Revelation. And here I thought Dispensationalists were the ones who prided themselves on viewing Revelation "literally." Seems like I take these judgment passages more literally than you do!

Here’s the clue to learning about prophecy… If what you’re reading makes literal sense, don’t go looking for another sense.

Trust me, I am very familiar with interpreting prophecy and have studied pretty much every view out there. I believe my view is far more consistent or I wouldnt hold to it. I mean, if what you say is true, why dont you hold to Revelation 6:12-17 in the "literal sense" as I do?

For example, the 144,000 of Rev. 14 comes from the 12,000 of each of the tribes mentioned in Rev. 7. They both make literal sense, so just accept it. If you try to understand prophecy using YOUR understanding and YOUR intellect, you’ll fail every time because they are spiritual things.

Well, actually it doesnt make "literal" sense for three reasons. First, there were a lot of books written in this genre in this time period. These types of numbers were common in them and they were not understood literally. Second, John refers to these 144,000 as "virgins." So I guess we should believe that God requires these Jews to be literal virgins if they want to go to heaven? Third, when the 144,000 are introduced previously, John looks and sees an uncountable multitude from every nation. So, I think its safe to say there is a fair amount of symbolism here. I mean, seriously, why is it you want to take the 144,000, 1,000 years and 3.5 years "literally" but most of the other numbers in revelation you are symbolic. Who is relying on their own understanding to determine which is which? I think all the numbers are symbolic. I dont rely on my understanding to determine which is which based on what seems more logical based on MY intellect. Make sense?

I believe my view is consistent as well and in line with all the other prophecies out there. It’s the Holy Spirit that lets us know which are symbolic and which aren’t, but a little common sense is also needed.

Well, if the Holy Spirit is interpreting this book for you, then why has no Christian prior to John Nelson Darby understood the book this way in the previous 1800 years of church history? Was the Holy Spirit taking a nap until John Darby arrived on the scene?

He did when John was looking at them. The eyes were explained, the horns weren’t, so to be honest, I don’t know what they symbolized.

Well, in apocalyptic literature, horns represent power and eyes represent knowledge. The number seven is a number for completion or perfection. The image communicates Jesus has all power and knowledge. The early audience would have understood this very easily. I think its important to understand that God uses symbols in this book because there are ideas that are bigger than what mere words can communicate. In my view, trying to reduce Revelation down to literal numbers really robs the beauty and power from the book. For instance, lets look at the 144,000.

For Jews, the number 12 represents God and the people of God on earth (24 elders, 12 apostles, 12 tribes, etc). 10 and multiples of 10 are often associated with judgment, evil or testing (Revelation 2:10; 12:3; 17:3, 12, 16; 20:1ff).
So, the 144,000 is the number 12x12x10x10x10. The point the number makes (and the early readers would have understood this) is that the complete number of God's people have been brought out of this testing. It is a comforting number that suggests not one person is missed. The complete number of God's people who are faithful to him will be redeemed. No one will be overlooked or forgotten by God. To make this a literal number makes is a sad image instead of a glorious one. What a sad picture that only 144,000 Israelites out of millions will be saved. I dont think that is what the image communicates at all.

Because God says so.

Ok, so explain to me how God says this mark is a literal branding but the name of the Lord written on the foreheads of the saints is spiritual and not literal. Because the two marks are literally back to back in the text.

It’s really not that hard when you take all of prophecy that we have and combine them into one simple story. Of course, the Holy Spirit helps as well.

Again, I have a hard time believing the Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretation when no Christian prior to the 1800s viewed Revelation as you do.

 

[Trekson]

Hi WW, Your words: “I was trying to help you understand how I see the structure of Revelation. One of the problems I have with Dispensational Premillennialism is that it relies so heavily on importing other texts into Revelation in order to try to build its view. For instance, Revelation 20 and the "millennium" says nothing about long life spans, abundant crops, lions and lambs laying down together and so forth. Those ideas are imported into the text in order to construct the Dispensational view of the millennium. Revelation 20 ONLY says that Christ reigns and the devil is bound so he cannot deceive the nations any longer. That's pretty much it. So, I believe, if we are going to understand a passage of Scripture, we need to look primarily at the passage and not import other, completely unrelated texts to try to create something that is not explicitly taught in the text.”

The underlined portion is the problem. There are NO unrelated texts. If you read the bible from Genesis through Revelation, it reads like one continuous novel. The whole of it makes sense from the beginning to the yet unseen conclusion. You HAVE to glean from all the other prophecies to get the WHOLE picture. God is not the author of confusion and everything in the Word makes sense but it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal that sense. It’s not some jumbled mass of confusing pictures to try and reason out by hidden symbolism. It’s literally in black and white (sometimes red).

Your words: “Except for all the islands and mountains fleeing and the sky rolling up like a scroll in Rev. 6....but then Jesus is born in Rev 12? Again, I showed very clearly how the world clearly ends about 4-5x in Revelation. And here I thought Dispensationalists were the ones who prided themselves on viewing Revelation "literally." Seems like I take these judgment passages more literally than you do!”

I’ve explained how Rev. 12 works, if you choose not to accept it, that’s up to you. You’ve only shown how you THINK the world ends 4 or 5 times but the fact is, it only ends once in Rev. 19:20 – Rev. 20:2.

Your words: “Trust me, I am very familiar with interpreting prophecy and have studied pretty much every view out there. I believe my view is far more consistent or I wouldnt hold to it. I mean, if what you say is true, why dont you hold to Revelation 6:12-17 in the "literal sense" as I do?”

I do hold them to a literal sense but it’s just not describing the end of the world. It’s a reinforcement of the vision from Joel 2. The islands and mountains don’t vanish they are just “shaken” from a strong earthquake, that’s what “moved out of their places” means. This isn’t the end, it’s the beginning of the end.

Your words: “Well, actually it doesn’t make "literal" sense for three reasons. First, there were a lot of books written in this genre in this time period. These types of numbers were common in them and they were not understood literally. Second, John refers to these 144,000 as "virgins." So I guess we should believe that God requires these Jews to be literal virgins if they want to go to heaven? Third, when the 144,000 are introduced previously, John looks and sees an uncountable multitude from every nation. So, I think its safe to say there is a fair amount of symbolism here. I mean, seriously, why is it you want to take the 144,000, 1,000 years and 3.5 years "literally" but most of the other numbers in revelation you are symbolic. Who is relying on their own understanding to determine which is which? I think all the numbers are symbolic. I dont rely on my understanding to determine which is which based on what seems more logical based on MY intellect. Make sense?”

Other books, that aren’t the bible are irrelevant. God wants to begin with the unspoiled young, makes sense to me, although they could be spiritual virgins which means they have only followed the “one true God” from the start of their young lives. The 144,000 and the uncountable multitude are two completely different groups. You’d have to show me a number you think I would believe is symbolic. Off the top of my head, I believe they are all literal. You may be lumping me into a group I don’t belong. My thoughts are my own, I’m not following a prescribed agenda. In fact, I’ve never meant anyone who agrees with me exactly on everything.

Your words: “Well, if the Holy Spirit is interpreting this book for you, then why has no Christian prior to John Nelson Darby understood the book this way in the previous 1800 years of church history? Was the Holy Spirit taking a nap until John Darby arrived on the scene?”

I believe it has always been pre-millennial and a-millennial came out of Catholicism, which wasn’t the only church around, it just thinks it was. The only new thing that Darby introduced was a pre-trib rapture, which I don’t believe in. The whole of the prophetic parts of the old and new testaments are pre-millennial. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers which also show a pre-millennial viewpoint:

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli (words in parenthesis mine)

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

Your words: “For Jews, the number 12 represents God and the people of God on earth (24 elders, 12 apostles, 12 tribes, etc). 10 and multiples of 10 are often associated with judgment, evil or testing (Revelation 2:10; 12:3; 17:3, 12, 16; 20:1ff).
So, the 144,000 is the number 12x12x10x10x10. The point the number makes (and the early readers would have understood this) is that the complete number of God's people have been brought out of this testing. It is a comforting number that suggests not one person is missed. The complete number of God's people who are faithful to him will be redeemed. No one will be overlooked or forgotten by God. To make this a literal number makes is a sad image instead of a glorious one. What a sad picture that only 144,000 Israelites out of millions will be saved.”

You’re kind of proving my point by trying to find another sense when the bible plainly tells you who the 144,000 are in Rev. 7:4. While it may be sad, it is also true, although some more will probably make it into the millennium via the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. The percentage of unsaved Gentiles who won’t make it in is much, much greater.

Your words: “Ok, so explain to me how God says this mark is a literal branding but the name of the Lord written on the foreheads of the saints is spiritual and not literal. Because the two marks are literally back to back in the text.”

That’s an easy one. In Rev. 7:3 it’s the angels that are doing the sealing. In Rev. 13:16, it is a man that causes it. I wouldn’t necessarily call seven chapters between them “back to back”.

 

[Wormwood]

The underlined portion is the problem. There are NO unrelated texts. If you read the bible from Genesis through Revelation, it reads like one continuous novel.

I agree with you that the Bible works together as a whole. However, the prophecies of Daniel speak of Christ's first coming, not his second. It is the Premillennial Dispensationalist that somehow turns Rome, the fourth beast, into ANOTHER future Rome from whence comes the Antichrist and end of the world scenarios. This is completely done in the imagination of the Dispensationalist. The text itself makes no such leaps. Rather, it pretty straight forward speaks of a time when sin would be dealt with and the Kingdom of God would be established by a stone cut without hands. It speaks of Babylon, Medo-Persians, Greeks, and finally the Romans before Christ comes and establishes the Kingdom of God on earth. That is the focus, period. So, yes, the book works together with the rest of the OT in that it points to the coming of the Messiah. No Jew living in Daniel's time or Jesus' time would have concluded that Daniels prophecy wasnt about the present Rome, but a rebuilt Rome...yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, at some point you have to realize that you are making these connections and they are not explicitly spelled out in the text. If its so explicit, again, why did no one see it for 1800 years?

You’ve only shown how you THINK the world ends 4 or 5 times but the fact is, it only ends once in Rev. 19:20 – Rev. 20:2.

Well, you are the one arguing for a "literal" interpretation. So why not literally interpret the sky rolling up and mountains fleeing....and "everyone" hiding from the wrath of the Lamb appearing in the sky in Rev. 6? Or that God has destroyed all the destroyers of the earth in Revelation 11:18? Again, you are the one who said we should interpret it literally unless given clear reasons to think otherwise.

The islands and mountains don’t vanish they are just “shaken” from a strong earthquake, that’s what “moved out of their places” means. This isn’t the end, it’s the beginning of the end.

Oh come on...read the text!
“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”” (Revelation 6:12–17, ESV)

So you are saying this earthquake causes the stars to fall to the earth and causes people to hide from the face of Jesus? Some earthquake! The fact is, this text coincides directly with the words of Jesus about his second coming:

““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29–31, ESV)

I mean, apart from a verbatim quoting of Matt 24, I dont think the parallel could be any clearer.

I believe it has always been pre-millennial and a-millennial came out of Catholicism, which wasn’t the only church around, it just thinks it was. The only new thing that Darby introduced was a pre-trib rapture, which I don’t believe in. The whole of the prophetic parts of the old and new testaments are pre-millennial. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers which also show a pre-millennial viewpoint:

You need to do some more study on Dispensationalism. First, the early church knew nothing of dispensations. Second, the whole notion of a secret rapture where the wicked are left behind, the rebuilding of the Temple and God's focus on Israel in the end times is completely foreign to the early church. This was all introduced by Darby.

The early church held two views. Amillennialsm and historic premillennialism. Both views have held to belief in an Antichrist (although I personally do not) and both believed that the church was true Israel. Historic premillenialism did hold to a chronological reading of the book of Revelation and a literal millennial reign of Christ, but they did not view the "rapture" the same way as dispensationalists do today. Dispensationalists are notorious for trying to misquote early Christians to show earlier creedance for their views. However, most dispensational scholars readily admit that dispensationalism is completely foreign to early Christianity and the terms "rapture" and so forth used by early Christians had a very different connotation than what those terms mean for the dispensationalist (secret rapture with the purpose of removing the church, leaving wicked people behind so God can focus on the Jews and fulfill the unfulfilled promises in the OT to the Jewish nation).

You’re kind of proving my point by trying to find another sense when the bible plainly tells you who the 144,000 are in Rev. 7:4. While it may be sad, it is also true, although some more will probably make it into the millennium via the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. The percentage of unsaved Gentiles who won’t make it in is much, much greater.

Oh, but isnt the sheep and goat judgment for literal sheep and goats? smh. So, tell me, how are there going to be 12,000 saved from the 10 northern tribes when those tribes vanished after the invasion of Assyria? Saying only 144,000 Jews will be saved in the end times is like saying that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, but only a thousand. Or that literally a day is exactly 1,000 years to God. Or that Jesus' resurrected body has 7 eyeballs. Moreover, you never addressed my question: Will these have to be literal virgins to be saved? Is celibacy a requirement for Jewish salvation in the end times?

Look, Revelation tells us from the very beginning that it is written in symbols.

“Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,” (Revelation 1:1, NA27)

Esemanen is the verb form of the noun, "signs." Just like in John's gospel, Jesus performed many "signs." The miracles Jesus did were signs that pointed to a deeper reality (i.e. healing the blind man - Jesus is the light of the world; feeding the multitude - Jesus is the bread from heaven; raising Lazarus - Jesus is the resurrection and the life, etc.). The miracles were signs or symbols of a greater reality. The same is true in Revelation. The images and numbers are "signs" that point to deeper realities. John tells us from the beginning that the revelation was "signed" to him. If you dont understand this, you will never understand the message of Revelation. It is a message that we are to keep and not just one that predicts the future. Pretty hard to "keep" what is written in Revelation if it all pretty much speaks only to the 1st century churches in chapters 1-3 and the last few years of history from chapters 4-22! So is Revelation not a blessing for 99% of all Christians throughout history?

“Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.” (Revelation 1:3, ESV)

 

[Trekson]

I agree with you that the Bible works together as a whole. However, the prophecies of Daniel speak of Christ's first coming, not his second. It is the Premillennial Dispensationalist that somehow turns Rome, the fourth beast, into ANOTHER future Rome from whence comes the Antichrist and end of the world scenarios. This is completely done in the imagination of the Dispensationalist. (no, this is done when prophecy is interpreted correctly) The text itself makes no such leaps. (actually it does in Dan. 7:27) Rather, it pretty straight forward speaks of a time when sin would be dealt with and the Kingdom of God would be established by a stone cut without hands. (none of that is in Dan. 7 with the interpretation of the 4th beast) It speaks of Babylon, Medo-Persians, Greeks, and finally the Romans before Christ comes and establishes the Kingdom of God on earth. (if you think we’re living in the Kingdom of God now then you will be in for a very pleasant surprise) That is the focus, period. So, yes, the book works together with the rest of the OT in that it points to the coming of the Messiah. No Jew living in Daniel's time or Jesus' time would have concluded that Daniels prophecy wasn’t about the present Rome, but a rebuilt Rome...yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, at some point you have to realize that you are making these connections and they are not explicitly spelled out in the text. (I would say they are and quite plainly so) If it’s so explicit, again, why did no one see it for 1800 years? (I believe the church did but apparently the Catholics missed it)

Can you tell me when this was fulfilled? Dan. 7:27 – “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions(empires) shall serve and obey him.” (word in parenthesis mine)

Well, you are the one arguing for a "literal" interpretation. So why not literally interpret the sky rolling up and mountains fleeing....and "everyone" hiding from the wrath of the Lamb appearing in the sky in Rev. 6? (I do, I just admit that I don’t know what the sky rolling up will look like and I really don’t know where you see mountains “fleeing”. I already said I don’t believe in a secret rapture and I do believe some, mostly rulers would go to their ‘safe” places. Or that God has destroyed all the destroyers of the earth in Revelation 11:18? ( You have to read the tenses, as in vs. 15 “has become” is in the present/future tense meaning it’s “about” to happen. It’s the same here in vs. 18. Actually, I couldn’t find a def. for “shouldest” in my Strong’s but from reading other translations it too is in the present/future tense meaning it’s not already done but it’s about to be.)

Oh come on...read the text! (okay but let’s do it with a little common sense) (words in parenthesis will be mine)

“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake,(a very large, severe one) and the sun became black as sackcloth, (most likely a solar eclipse) the full moon became like blood, (I’ve seen some very red moons in my days) and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale (most likely a meteor shower). The sky vanished (KJV – departed = separated) like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed (shaken) from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, (that he saw) slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:12–17, ESV) Yeah, I bet when this starts happening all at once the world is going to scared ----less.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29–31, ESV) I mean, apart from a verbatim quoting of Matt 24, I don’t think the parallel could be any clearer.

I absolutely agree. It says every eye will see Him, that’s why the unsaved are trying to hide. There is no “secret” rapture. The public rapture will be when we are “gathered”. The account in Luke 21:28 tells us “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” This is speaking of the aforementioned signs, imo, our “redemption” will be the rapture and our arrival in heaven is depicted in Rev. 7:9. All one simple complete literal package.

You need to do some more study on Dispensationalism. First, the early church knew nothing of dispensations. (that’s debateable see 1Co. 9:17, Eph. 1:10, 3:2 and Col. 1:25) Second, the whole notion of a secret rapture where the wicked are left behind, (I agree) the rebuilding of the Temple and God's focus on Israel in the end times is completely foreign to the early church. This was all introduced by Darby. (that’s not true because they were very familiar with the OT which was there only bible at the time and it’s all over there.

The early church held two views. Amillennialsm and historic premillennialism. (I believe that is your opinion. It depends on which ‘early church” you’re speaking of. The ones built and planted by the apostles or the ones who were corrupted by the rise of Catholicism.) There is a prophecy by Daniel in Dan. 12:4 – “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

In my opinion, assuming your above question is a valid one “If its so explicit, again, why did no one see it for 1800 years?” The short answer would be because it wasn’t yet time for them to ‘see it”. Perhaps, in the 1800’s God started to unseal the knowledge of Daniel to the church and as time to the end gets closer our “knowledge” of end times events begins to become more clearer.

Oh, but isnt the sheep and goat judgment for literal sheep and goats? smh. (Really, you’re better than that) So, tell me, how are there going to be 12,000 saved from the 10 northern tribes when those tribes vanished after the invasion of Assyria? (God knows who and where they are) Moreover, you never addressed my question: Will these have to be literal virgins to be saved? Is celibacy a requirement for Jewish salvation in the end times? Yes, I did. I said they would either be young or the virgin aspect is spiritual.

Look, Revelation tells us from the very beginning that it is written in symbols.

Esemanen is the verb form of the noun, "signs." Just like in John's gospel, Jesus performed many "signs." The miracles Jesus did were signs that pointed to a deeper reality (i.e. healing the blind man - Jesus is the light of the world; feeding the multitude - Jesus is the bread from heaven; raising Lazarus - Jesus is the resurrection and the life, etc.). The miracles were signs or symbols of a greater reality. ( Those signs were for a purpose to let people know that one associated with God was in their midst. They were needed for that generation and in some cases to fulfill prophecy.) John tells us from the beginning that the revelation was "signed" to him. (Signed and signified are two different things and reading that to mean that all of Revelation is in “sign language” is just plain silly. If you dont understand this, you will never understand the message of Revelation. It is a message that we are to keep and not just one that predicts the future. Pretty hard to "keep" what is written in Revelation if it all pretty much speaks only to the 1st century churches in chapters 1-3 and the last few years of history from chapters 4-22! So is Revelation not a blessing for 99% of all Christians throughout history? The possibility that each generation could see these things come to fruition is what made it a blessing to all generations and why they “kept” it.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi guys! Interesting conversation! I'm an Amil, personally. And as Wormwood has posted, there are many reasons for believing that this is the correct end times perspective. But rather than go over all that again, I think the main two reasons that I became an Amil-er are:
The way Amil's interpret scripture. I know this is a big contentious issue between Amil's and the Pre-mil's particularly. PM tend to find us offensive because we don't "interpret the bible literally"...an issue I think they don't really understand too well, but that's not really my point. My point is: they have an Israel centered biblical hermeneutic. That seems to be the basis of their end times belief. All the OT promises are for the Nation of Israel, and therefore those promises need to be fulfilled, literally, for the Nation. Amil's have a Christ centered hermeneutic. We believe that the whole Bible, the whole OT is pointing to Christ. The promises where for Christ and were fulfilled in Christ. Honestly, I can't support anything that doesn't have Jesus as centre. It's a simple as that. And I think the NT backs up that idea with every verse and chapter.
The second reason is that every verse that speaks of Christ's return in the NT, that speaks of 'The Day of the Lord', or the signs of the times...anything regards end time....it seems quite clear that it's all speaking of a single event. There is no sign that there are gaps, breaks, phases or anything else going on. In fact, it seems the only way to get those gaps, is by reading these passages with an end time notion already in place. And I speak as one who used to be PM. I had to reassess because too many things just didn't seem to be IN scripture. It was all taught as a model that you took TO scripture, not from it.

Having said all that...I know I'm far from perfect, in deed and in understanding. I'm not closing my mind to the other systems, in fact I make it my business to understand them and, as Jesus commanded us, to watch. There is much going on in the world at the moment. I think all of it can be explained in an Amil setting, but I certainly won't be upset, or even surprised if I'm raptured tomorrow! I see it as a win/win, really. If Jesus comes back, in any way, how can we loose??!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Naomi, Your words: "The second reason is that every verse that speaks of Christ's return in the NT, that speaks of 'The Day of the Lord', or the signs of the times...anything regards end time....it seems quite clear that it's all speaking of a single event."

In a way it is and in a way it isn't. Take an event like the Macy's Thanksgiving parade. It only lasts a couple of hours, happens once a year and then it's over, right? But you also have to take into consideration all the prep work and the clean up time afterwards. The bible covers all that as part of the Day of the Lord. It's obvious that the Day of the Lord begins with the signs of the 6th seal. Jesus just should have stopped the vision then and there, right? I mean why go on and on repeating yourself with different pictures? Does he think we're stupid and wouldn't understand His first metaphor, if that's what it was?

To me, the amil position has life going on as usual then BAM! Out of nowhere humanity is severely judged with no further opportunity for repentance, the world is ripped to pieces, the church suffers along with everyone else because there's no rapture to remove us. Then God, out of His goodness, resurrects our tortured, burned, maimed hideous corpses and eternity begins.

Personally, I think God is way more merciful than that and once the Day of the Lord begins, He offers humanity several opportunities to repent through the ever increasing severity of His judgments. So back to your statement, yes it is a single event, it just doesn't happen in a literal 24 hr. day. It has a beginning and an end with opportunities for humanity to repent all the way through.

Not all pre-mills are dispensationalists as is commonly described. I'm not. Do I see a future for Israel based upon God's promises to them? Absolutely, God keeps His promises. Most dispensationalists see an eternal separation between the Israel and the church. I do not. I see the reason for all these events are to bring about complete and total harmony between the two with, as you said, Christ at the center. But that's another discussion altogether.

 

[Retrobyter]

Hi Wormwood, My goodness, you have me at a disadvantage. This is obviously something you had prepared ahead of time. No offense because I can be a little verbose as well, but it's like I'm have a Retrobyter flashback. No offense, Retro, if you're still around. Anyway, it might take most of tomorrow to craft a reply so a little patience would be appreciated. However, I do like your direct approach and sense of reasoning even if I disagree with your outcome.

Shalom, Trekson. It's really easy to read my "long posts." Just read between the Scripture passages. That's what I actually wrote. However, I will frequently post the Scripture passages, too, because they are so often missed or misread.

 

[blessedhope]

And >don't "interpret the bible literally"... My point is: they have an Israel centered biblical hermeneutic. That seems to be the basis of their end times belief. >> this is Good> like Gold. Ya Baby >>> The State of Israel Is in your face but you come on and deny that means anything!> your a class act of satan!> na > can I ask where you get your theology from?

 

[blessedhope]

Jesus Christ was born of Jewish blood {Mother } And God became flesh! In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Retrobyter]

Hi guys! Interesting conversation! I'm an Amil, personally. And as Wormwood has posted, there are many reasons for believing that this is the correct end times perspective. But rather than go over all that again, I think the main two reasons that I became an Amil-er are:
The way Amil's interpret scripture. I know this is a big contentious issue between Amil's and the Pre-mil's particularly. PM tend to find us offensive because we don't "interpret the bible literally"...an issue I think they don't really understand too well, but that's not really my point. My point is: they have an Israel centered biblical hermeneutic. That seems to be the basis of their end times belief. All the OT promises are for the Nation of Israel, and therefore those promises need to be fulfilled, literally, for the Nation. Amil's have a Christ centered hermeneutic. We believe that the whole Bible, the whole OT is pointing to Christ. The promises where for Christ and were fulfilled in Christ. Honestly, I can't support anything that doesn't have Jesus as centre. It's a simple as that. And I think the NT backs up that idea with every verse and chapter.
The second reason is that every verse that speaks of Christ's return in the NT, that speaks of 'The Day of the Lord', or the signs of the times...anything regards end time....it seems quite clear that it's all speaking of a single event. There is no sign that there are gaps, breaks, phases or anything else going on. In fact, it seems the only way to get those gaps, is by reading these passages with an end time notion already in place. And I speak as one who used to be PM. I had to reassess because too many things just didn't seem to be IN scripture. It was all taught as a model that you took TO scripture, not from it.

Having said all that...I know I'm far from perfect, in deed and in understanding. I'm not closing my mind to the other systems, in fact I make it my business to understand them and, as Jesus commanded us, to watch. There is much going on in the world at the moment. I think all of it can be explained in an Amil setting, but I certainly won't be upset, or even surprised if I'm raptured tomorrow! I see it as a win/win, really. If Jesus comes back, in any way, how can we loose??!

Shalom, Naomi25.

You said, "Amil's have a Christ centered hermeneutic. We believe that the whole Bible, the whole OT is pointing to Christ. The promises were for Christ and were fulfilled in Christ. Honestly, I can't support anything that doesn't have Jesus as centre."

That sounds so high and noble, but ANY such stance about the Christ (= the Messiah) is severely lacking without the setting for why Yeshua` (Jesus) came in the first place!

Remember what Smoh said about pride:

Proverbs 16:18
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
KJV

And, I can't help but remember what Paul said to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 1:12-29
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV

But, what is a "Christ?" And, what does it mean to "preach?" If you can't answer these questions and answer them correctly, then your stance is just so much empty rhetoric.

If you cannot see the "Jewishness" of the Christ, the Messiah, then you will continue to make these mistakes.

Also, you should know that a premillennialist is not so concerned that you take a "literal view" of the Scriptures as that you take a "historical, grammatical view" of the Scriptures, as they were meant to be read and as they were written! It's not a "non-literal view" that they would like to squelch; it's the "ALLEGORICAL view" that is both unnecessary and distracts from the substance of the Scriptures! One does not HAVE to find "Christ" in every OT Scripture verse! To the contrary, it is better to see them as the recorded history of His ancestors. While one may learn things from their accounts, the focus is meant to be their history and how God intervened in their lives to bring about the Messiah of the OT prophecies, the One anointed (which is what "Messiah" means) to be the rightful King of Israel. And, while some might say that they rejected Him as their King, remember who's in charge! He is still the Messiah of prophecy and He has NOT released them from His service!

 

[blessedhope]

literally >
Here’s how I would lay the groundwork for an answer. If I’m asked if I take the Bible literally, I would say I think that’s the wrong question. I’d say instead that I take the Bible in its ordinary sense, that is, I try to take the things recorded there with the precision I think the writer intended.
I realize this reply might also be a bit ambiguous, but here, I think, that’s a strength. Hopefully, my comment will prompt a request for clarification. This is exactly what I want. I’d clarify by countering with a question: “Do you read the sports page literally?”
If I asked you this question, I think you’d pause because there is a sense in which everyone reads the sports page in a straightforward way. Certain factual information is part of every story in that section. However, you wouldn’t take everything written in a woodenly literal way that ignores the conventions of the craft.
“Literally?” you might respond. “That depends. If the writer seems to be stating a fact—like a score, a location, a player’s name, a description of the plays leading to a touchdown—then I’d take that as literal. If he seems to be using a figure of speech, then I’d read his statement that way, figuratively, not literally.”
Exactly. Sportswriters use a particular style to communicate the details of athletic contests clearly. They choose precise (and sometimes imaginative) words and phrases to convey a solid sense of the particulars in an entertaining way.
Sportswriters routinely use words like “annihilated,” “crushed,” “mangled,” “mutilated,” “stomped,” and “pounded,” yet no one speculates about literal meanings. Readers don’t scratch their heads wondering if cannibalism was involved when they read “the Anaheim Angels devoured the St. Louis Cardinals.”
We recognize such constructions as figures of speech used to communicate in colorful ways events that actually (“literally”) took place. In fact, we never give those details a second thought because we understand how language works.
When a writer seems to be communicating facts in a straightforward fashion, we read them as such. When we encounter obvious figures of speech, we take them that way, too.
That’s the normal way to read the sports page. It’s also the normal—and responsible—way to read any work, including the Bible. Always ask, “What is this writer trying to communicate?” This is exactly what I’m after when I say, “I take the Bible in its ordinary sense.”
Of course, someone may differ with the clear point the Bible is making. Fair enough. There’s nothing dishonest about disagreement. Or they might think some Christian is mistaken on its meaning. Misinterpretation is always possible. Conjuring up some meaning that has little to do with the words the writer used, though, is not a legitimate alternative.
If someone disagrees with the obvious sense of a passage, ask them for the reasons they think the text should be an exception to the otherwise sound “ordinary sense” rule. Their answer will tell you if their challenge is intellectually honest, or if they’re just trying to dismiss biblical claims they simply don’t like.

 

[Wormwood]

Can you tell me when this was fulfilled? Dan. 7:27 – “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions(empires) shall serve and obey him.” (word in parenthesis mine)

I believe Daniel points to both a "now" and "not yet" understanding of the Kingdom of God. Surely, you would not disagree that Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God, correct? I mean, Jesus told a lot of parables about the Kingdom being something that currently exists with tares sown in the midst, or a hidden treasure that someone stumbles upon and gives everything to have. Yet, I agree with you, the Kingdom is not fully consummated yet. The passage above speaks of both. We have been given the kingdom and have been seated above all principalities and powers in spiritual places. Jesus is seated at the right had of God and has been given a name above every name and a kingdom that is an everlasting kingdom. All dominions "shall" serve and obey him. So yes, Jesus has brought the Kingdom, and we are a part of it. One day, all dominions shall serve and obey him. Its no different than the vision of the statue. Jesus is the stone cut without hands and he has become the stone of stumbling and the rock of offense. He is the stone that falls and crushes a person to pieces. The establishement of the Kingdom of God has rendered all earthly kingdoms meaningless and futile. So, Jesus appeared as the rock cut without hands and he established his kingdom and that kingdom both is and will crush all present kingdoms and the Kingdom of God will fill the earth.

You see, Trekson, the visions of Daniel were serving a purpose for the Jewish nation. First, it was teaching them that their journey home and rebuilding of the temple after captivity in Babylon was still just the beginning of trials and troubles they would face. Deliverance from Babylon was not their final salvation, and Cyrus was not their ultimate Savior. There will still come other kingdoms, the Medo-Persians, Greeks and Romans before the true Savior would come. There would be intense suffering (primarily at the hands of Antiochus Epiphanes IV) but one day the one would come that would provide them a true and enduring Kingdom that was established by God rather than idolatrous men. One day, God would, " ““Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.” That has happened by the work of Jesus on the cross. Iniquity has been atoned for, transgressions erased, sin defeated and God's most holy place (Jesus - the body of Jesus - the Church) has become a holy and living Temple to God. To turn back to national Israel and temples made of stone is to miss and undermine the power of what Christ has accomplished and what the Jewish people were longing for through Daniel's prophecies! Moreover, the Jewish people were simply looking for hope and the fulfillment of God's promises. Daniel's purpose was not to delineate exact times between the establishment of the Kingdom and its full consummation. It was simply to point to the one who would set up the eternal Kingdom of God that would ultimately cause all nations to bow before him. To ask Daniels prophecies to give timelines between the 1st and 2nd coming is not the point of that book. This part of God's plan was not revealed until the coming of Christ (which is why the disciples were so confused that Jesus wasnt immediately going to set up residence in the Temple and establish the Kingdom of God fully upon his arrival to Jerusalem!!)

Anyway, I have more to write but I am out of time. Will try to respond to more later.

 

[Naomi25]

Personally, I think God is way more merciful than that and once the Day of the Lord begins, He offers humanity several opportunities to repent through the ever increasing severity of His judgments. So back to your statement, yes it is a single event, it just doesn't happen in a literal 24 hr. day. It has a beginning and an end with opportunities for humanity to repent all the way through.

Hi Trekson. You may very well be right...but you also could be wrong. I could be reading no gap into the passage, but you could be reading one in. I'm truly not sure that it matters who is right or wrong in this situation. I think that the opportunity that comes from discussing our differences about that day, is that it remains fresh...we should always be thinking about and longing for that day. It should color our lives and how we respond to others, I think.

 

[Naomi25]

And >don't "interpret the bible literally"... My point is: they have an Israel centered biblical hermeneutic. That seems to be the basis of their end times belief. >> this is Good> like Gold. Ya Baby >>> The State of Israel Is in your face but you come on and deny that means anything!> your a class act of satan!> na > can I ask where you get your theology from?

Wow! Thank you for such an amazing, Christian welcome! I love it when someone enters into humble dialogue with me, keen to discuss in a Christ-like fashion our differences and similarities. Bless you.

 

[Naomi25]

Shalom, Naomi25.

You said, "Amil's have a Christ centered hermeneutic. We believe that the whole Bible, the whole OT is pointing to Christ. The promises were for Christ and were fulfilled in Christ. Honestly, I can't support anything that doesn't have Jesus as centre."

That sounds so high and noble, but ANY such stance about the Christ (= the Messiah) is severely lacking without the setting for why Yeshua` (Jesus) came in the first place!

Hi Retrobyter, it was not supposed to sound 'high and noble'. I tend to find long, quote-y posts hard to wade through, and so my original post was attempting not to go into huge detail...I'm sorry if my brevity made me sound snooty.

I'm not saying that Israel (the nation) is not important; to God, or to how we received our messiah. God chose them to bring Christ to this fallen world, and as Paul says...they will always be loved on account of their forefathers. I believe that the fact that Israel retained their national identity and are now back in the land of Israel is a clear act of God, and that he is not done with them yet.
But the clear, overarching theme of the whole bible, is Jesus. The story is a long tale of how God chooses those he has mercy on...we turn away, but he brings us back and forgives. Every time Israel was tossed from the land it was showing that every lost soul naturally turns from God in idolatry. And every time Israel was redeemed by God and he bought them home, it was a clear picture to how it is only grace and mercy from our Father above that can save us. And as Israel (indeed the whole world) could never stay faithful, Jesus was the answer...the ultimate mercy and grace from God.

But even if we dial in a bit closer, the story is still about Jesus. Yes, God used Israel to tell the story, so to speak, but it's still about Christ. The bible is fairly clear that within the nation of Israel, there were those who God elected. Abraham, who was promised that ALL nations would be blessed through him, whose faith in a future Christ saw him willing to sacrifice his son ( a clear pointing to Jesus...a son who was sacrificed). Moses, who led his people out of slavery...also a foreshadowing story of how Christ would do the same...for the whole world. Elijah is told that God always kept a few from each generation who were faithful to him. So we see that even though "Israel" is "God's people", not all of them were elect. The elect were those who God chose to send his son through. And once his son had come, and died for ALL, the elect now come from all peoples...and that includes Israel.

I don't suppose I'm going to be able to persuade you, and that's fine, but it's nice to try and explain oneself, don't you think? From where I'm sitting, it's a bit like this: some people seem to worship the bible...as in, they think the book itself is somehow god...rather than just seeing that it's God's letter to us. We treat is with respect, recognize it's great worth and treasure it accordingly...but the one we worship is Christ. Sometimes I feel that some Christians act that way when it comes to Israel. God brought forth his son and his plan for redemption for all through the Nation, and we should recognize that, but Israel is not holy...they are a people who need Jesus just as much as we do. And reading God's plan for humanity focused on Israel rather than Christ, can distort the beauty of his plan, of his grace. I think, anyway.

 

[Trekson]

Hi WW, I’m selecting some of the comments you made in your first paragraph to discuss: “Surely, you would not disagree that Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God, correct? We have been given the kingdom and have been seated above all principalities and powers in spiritual places. So yes, Jesus has brought the Kingdom, and we are a part of it.”

Actually, I do disagree and this is the major leg that amil stands on. If it can be shown that the kingdom has not yet arrived then the whole theology collapses. Jesus did NOT claim to establish the kingdom of God, He came to introduce us to the kingdom of God and to show us how we may inherit it. The kingdom is not here yet that’s why the world is in such a mess. The best that can be said is that Christ gave us the keys to the kingdom of God which means He showed us how we may enter in, not that we have already. Let me provide some scriptural support and I pray you’ll read this the way it is written and not try to spiritualize it away.

Mark 14:25 – “Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Lk. 19:11-13 – “And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.”

All of His parables contain truisms about the messages He is delivering. Here He is explaining to the disciples why the kingdom is not as near as they hoped. The point of this message is that the kingdom won’t arrive until he returns and brings it with Him. But let’s continue.

Lk 21:31 – “So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.” So when we see these literal signs of His second coming we know it is close. It is NOT here yet!

Acts 14:22 – “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” This is confirming that we don’t enter into the kingdom upon salvation. It is our goal to enter in when our time on earth is complete.

1Co. 6:9-10, 15:50, Gal. 5:21, Eph. 5:5, James 2:5 all speak of the kingdom of God as something we inherit, Not upon His death but upon our own.

I think 1Co. 15:50 explains it best: “ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Even though we are covered by His blood and receive His righteousness we are still corruptible. We have not yet attained the perfection that awaits us upon our rapture/resurrection.

The closest verse to what you believe I think may be Lk.17:21 – “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” This is indeed verifying that through faith we can have access to the kingdom of God but that is not the same as the kingdom being literally already here upon the earth. The closest thing we can experience here on earth is, if we are lucky enough to be part of the Body of Christ that is operating with all the spiritual gifts and all members of that particular congregation are of one mind and one spirit. I haven’t found one but there might be a couple out there somewhere.

One more thought along this line from 1Co. 15:44-50, This might put it in a better perspective. “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” There is a natural kingdom and a spiritual kingdom. Right now we have access to the spiritual kingdom but we can’t enter in until this natural world which comes first is over that we might attain the spiritual in it’s fullness when He returns to earth.

Your words: “To ask Daniels prophecies to give timelines between the 1st and 2nd coming is not the point of that book. This part of God's plan was not revealed until the coming of Christ (which is why the disciples were so confused that Jesus wasn’t immediately going to set up residence in the Temple and establish the Kingdom of God fully upon his arrival to Jerusalem!!)”

Yes, you’re right and that confusion is still with us today. Actually though, God’s millennial plans are in almost all the prophetic books. You’re right when you say they didn’t recognize the difference in time between the two, but neither do you, but the “gap” is part of the prophecy. I call it “telescoping prophecy”. The prophets could see the mountaintops of the distant future but not the valley of time between fulfillments.

This can be shown by how you came up with your theory based on this verse: Dan. 9:24 – “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.”

Your words: “That has happened by the work of Jesus on the cross. Iniquity has been atoned for, transgressions erased, sin defeated and God's most holy place (Jesus - the body of Jesus - the Church) has become a holy and living Temple to God.”

This is not an accurate assessment. You use words that have nothing to do with what Christ accomplished on the cross or what this verse literally says. You’re reading into it things that were NOT accomplished and that is why the 70th week is still yet to come.

Is transgression finished? No! Is there an end to sin? No! Has iniquity been atoned for? Yes! Has everlasting righteousness come to Israel? Individually, Yes! But as a nation? Not Yet! Has vision and prophecy been sealed (made an end of)? NO! Has a most holy place been anointed? Yes and no! You’re right with your talk about the body of Christ becoming the temple but there is still a future temple to be built that Christ will reign from for a thousand years. Using your analogy, what would anointing a holy place mean to an Israelite of that day? You see, until ALL these things have been fulfilled one can’t say that it has been. A couple don’t count.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Naomi, Your words: "I'm truly not sure that it matters who is right or wrong in this situation."

On a personal level you're correct, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong but for our witness to the world it matters a great deal! I imagine that if I was an unbeliever and you told me that by accepting Christ as my Savior, I would enter into the kingdom of God, at first I might be excited. However, when trials and tribulations came I would be disappointed and ask, is this really the kingdom of God? I wouldn't find it all that attractive. But if you were to actually show me in the Word where it says that "through much trial and tribulation we shall enter the kingdom of God", that would make much more sense. Also, if I asked you about Revelation and you told me not to take it literally, that it was all metaphors, I would believe you. BUT when all those events ACTUALLY begin to happen, then I would feel lied to, at best, or believe the imposter Christ to be the real one and I would be deceived and spend eternity in hell if I received his mark. So, it really does matter. I don't think God would have given us all these warnings about the "latter" days, if they weren't literally coming and in the details Christ Himself describes.