An interesting question.......
- Thread starter Willie T
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Well, I was just wondering how Christ did that "reigning." Could you explain that a little more?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Well, the [new] earth has a future, but not this present earth, and not the world, for His kingdom is "not of this world." So, when He comes for us ("each in our own order") so "that where He is we might be also", that means we are no longer in the world or upon this old earth. But those who perish do not go...which means that as we exit (day by day) things just get worse until the end.
Well, I was just wondering how
What were priests for? No need for them if they were not supposed to represent men.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Sure, the Christian kings of Europe in union with the Church reigned over much of the world...
The Spanish, French and English empires didnt happen by accident... And as they spread around the world they brought the gospel with them..
And i dont think anyone will dispute that they ruled with a 'rod of iron'
Kings embracing Christianity and making the law (oops some got cut off here)
in accord with the teaching of the Church started (arguably) about 500 AD and
ended just about 1000 years later..
Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
Last edited:
Wouldn't that require that there is just supposed to be only a certain, predetermined number of Christians, and that God's word was not bringing hundreds, or even thousands, more each day?
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
- 33,943
- 12,081
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
We where not supposed to have priests. the disciples where supposed to spread the word of God, not build churches as men do. After pentecost, men where supposed to receive and be led by the Spirit, but they would rather follow after men because it takes no faith and is easier.
As I have said it before, it is why God has so few sons.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
You might be right there. Few people see escalatory as running all the way through the Bible like I do, from Genesis to Revelation.
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
- 33,943
- 12,081
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
eschatology is for crystal-ball-gazers and oracles imo
today has enough trouble in it
That's what I mean. Most people see it at something yet to happen. And I see it as something being worked out as God planned... even before we were created.
Naomi25
Well-Known Member
- Aug 10, 2016
- 3,199
- 1,801
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Hi Willie...seriously great, and interesting question you've posed here!
I think you are very right... there is no reason at all that we, children of God, who have the Holy Spirit, cannot shape the world into a better place.
The real question would be... why is it not happening?
And I think, perhaps, the answer was touched on by VictoryinJesus. Like our Saviour, it is not for us to set up an god honoring kingdom and bring a 'golden age' upon the earth. Jesus calls us to echo him and take us our cross, following him into a life of service, humility and very possible persecution.
Let me ask a question: what does it take to set up a kingdom? The bible tells us "a rod of iron". We know the last truly good biblical King, David, was such a warrior that God did not want him building his temple. Perhaps (and this is just my musing), the two are at odds at this point in time. What God wants from his people now, is different. Jesus' first coming is how we are to emulate him. His second coming, when he comes to rule? That will be with a rod of iron.
I'm speculating, of course, but it just seems to me that while Christians can certainly stand firm, and stand up for what they think to be right; increasingly, it would take aggressive and almost violent actions to be able to force our beliefs on others. Is that who we are? Who God calls us to be in this age?
Is the call to force OUR ideas on others, or to let the gospel (that we are to tell) change their thinking?
Last edited:
Naomi25
Well-Known Member
- Aug 10, 2016
- 3,199
- 1,801
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Yes, very true, but we know from scripture that we can expect those who find the narrow road to be "few", as opposed to the "many" we would be standing against, sub-culture wise.
Should we then withdraw into a society where biblical morals and thinking...a gospel theonomy, if you want, takes precedence? Or are we called to be present in this world as salt and light?
I think many people say futurists (as an example you used) are pessimistic and only look forward to the wonderful return of Jesus, and, while I cannot deny that I too, long for Christ's return, I have to say that I don't see the bible calling for a building towards a marvelous age of spiritual revival led by Christians. No... I see it calling for endurance, and encouraging us to run the race to the end with faithfulness. And I think, if we step back and look at this from a distance, this is not defeatism, but God building up the scene for such an end that his Glory will radiate through the Universe like never before. Satan's influence is indeed growing in this world, and it is indeed getting harder and harder to be a Christian with Christian values. But as we stand strong under wave after wave of attack from darkness, we witness to the lost and we show Satan how great our God is.
And I think this is one of the reasons things will get worse as we approach the end of human history. It's not because the spirit of Satan in others is stronger than the Spirit of God is in us, it's because those spirits want different things.
But...again...just my opinion!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Ohhh yes, stepping back, looking forward. Too often my small subjective view blurs or stunts the bigger picture yet as I read in Revelation of millions upon millions of angels and the saved singing and extolling God's rightness I am lifted from the temporal to the eternal. I'm reminded of Paul's prayer that our eyes might be opened that we might see the great value of the gift given us.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
If I understand your question correctly. Yes, the number is written in the books, limit in advance, i.e. predetermine—determined before hand, ordained, or predestined.
But this is only in a manner of speaking. That is, only according to the way the world sees predestiny. Which, means foretelling and prophecy, is merely reading ahead in a book that is already written or being written, only giving the illusion of time to an otherwise eternal reality in God. You see, if I AM, says "I will", He does not refer to something future, but something revealed.
Naomi25
Well-Known Member
- Aug 10, 2016
- 3,199
- 1,801
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Don't you love Revelation? I know it's quite controversial because of all the different views that people have about it, but when you push that aside for a bit...how often does the book let us get a sneak peek into heaven, at the worship going on at the Throne! Some people see it as scary, or there's too much judgement going on it...and I just see it as wonderful and reassuring. In the end, God wins. Jesus will be praised, he'll rule the nations, and there won't be any evil or sadness. I can get behind that. No wonder Revelation is the most "sung" book in the bible!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I used to think these scenes were a set up but then realised it was the free universe vindicating God. That changed my perspective altogether and my heart jumped and throbbed with the prospect.
Would you consider looking at Matthew 7:13-14 in a way you may not have been taught?
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
This is a popular passage that seems on the surface to be detrimental to my optimistic outlook. These following words are often cited by many people to show the paucity of the number of saved:
"The great mass of humanity are engulfed in the maelstrom of sin, which is sweeping its millions down to graves of destruction (Matt. 7:13), and compared to them, in numbers, the true believers are but a handful. In the Millennium all this will be changed."
"The way to salvation is narrow, and only a few find it."
"Even the Lord Jesus acknowledged that few would find the true way, the way that leads to life (i.e., to heaven, in contrast with ruin in hell)."
"The passage itself contains no clue to the right way except that it is the way of the few There cannot be a billion Christians in the world because "such figures certainly do not square with what Jesus said about many on the broad road and few on the narrow."
"There are several passages in the scriptures which refer to the fact that the number of the saved, though a great multitude, is nevertheless, relatively speaking small.
Texts such as Matthew 7:14 and 22:14 are referred to in this connection. It is like a narrow way, and there are only a few who enter this way."
There is no doubt that some of us expect a vast multitude of men to be saved, so that we can legitimately anticipate that the "world” will be saved. How do we reply to all this?
It is important to notice, first, that in other places the Bible speaks of the number of the redeemed as a vast and countless multitude. Interestingly, just a few verses later — and apparently soon after stating the words of Matthew 7:13-14 — the Lord speaks seemingly contradictory words in Matthew 8:11:
"And I say to you that many ["polus", the same word in Matt 7:13] will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” Revelation 7:9 speaks boldly of a great number of the redeemed: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.”
And of course there are those prophecies which speak of "all nations” flowing into the kingdom (e.g., Isa. 2:2-4; Mic. 4:1-4).
Obviously, for the evangelical Christian there can be no contradiction in Scripture generally; neither is there any in Christ's teaching particularly. How, then, can we reconcile such seemingly contradictory passages? And more importantly, how do we deal with Matthew 7:13-14 in light of his optimistic expectations?
The resolution to the matter is to realize "our Lord's purpose is rather an ethical impression than a prophetic disclosure."
That is, He is urging His disciples to consider the present situation they witness round about them. They are to look around them and see that so many souls are presently perishing, so few men are seeking righteousness and salvation. What will they do about this sad predicament? Do they love Him enough to seek its reversal? Christ's challenge to them is ethical.
In John 4:35 He urges the dim-eyed disciples to see that there was much work to be done: "Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!” In Matthew 7 He warns against false prophets that will arise among the people (Matt. 7:15-20). Then He warns that a man must hear and act upon His words (Matt. 7:21-27). His disciples must feel the horror of the present vastness of the multitude entering the broad way to destruction.
Certainly the gate is narrow: only He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). But His statement in Matthew 7:13-14 does not imply that it will always and forever be the case that few will be saved in every era of history. In fact, there are numerous indications, as we have seen, that a great multitude of men will be saved, that the world as an organic system will experience the redeeming work of Christ, that all of His enemies will be subdued.
The Fall of Adam has taken an enormous toll upon the race of man, to be sure. But the resurrection and ascension of Christ will surely outstrip the effects of the Fall as history unfolds. This is why He delays His coming, so that He may gather the elect in. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
That the Lord is using the statement in Matthew 7:13-14 as an ethical prod rather than a prophetic expectation is evident from His use of it in another context. In Luke 13:23, we read: "Then one said to Him, 'Lord, are there few who are saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us,” and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from.” “ (Luke 13:24-25). Here He refuses to answer the question regarding the number of the saved. This was one of those questions that was asked in order to evade Christ's call to righteousness. The Lord was not prone to allow such rabbit trails to lead Him away from calling men to commitment. His statement in Matthew 7:13-14 served His purpose. Let us avoid this particular rabbit trail.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
This is a popular passage that seems on the surface to be detrimental to my optimistic outlook. These following words are often cited by many people to show the paucity of the number of saved:
"The great mass of humanity are engulfed in the maelstrom of sin, which is sweeping its millions down to graves of destruction (Matt. 7:13), and compared to them, in numbers, the true believers are but a handful. In the Millennium all this will be changed."
"The way to salvation is narrow, and only a few find it."
"Even the Lord Jesus acknowledged that few would find the true way, the way that leads to life (i.e., to heaven, in contrast with ruin in hell)."
"The passage itself contains no clue to the right way except that it is the way of the few There cannot be a billion Christians in the world because "such figures certainly do not square with what Jesus said about many on the broad road and few on the narrow."
"There are several passages in the scriptures which refer to the fact that the number of the saved, though a great multitude, is nevertheless, relatively speaking small.
Texts such as Matthew 7:14 and 22:14 are referred to in this connection. It is like a narrow way, and there are only a few who enter this way."
There is no doubt that some of us expect a vast multitude of men to be saved, so that we can legitimately anticipate that the "world” will be saved. How do we reply to all this?
It is important to notice, first, that in other places the Bible speaks of the number of the redeemed as a vast and countless multitude. Interestingly, just a few verses later — and apparently soon after stating the words of Matthew 7:13-14 — the Lord speaks seemingly contradictory words in Matthew 8:11:
"And I say to you that many ["polus", the same word in Matt 7:13] will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” Revelation 7:9 speaks boldly of a great number of the redeemed: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.”
And of course there are those prophecies which speak of "all nations” flowing into the kingdom (e.g., Isa. 2:2-4; Mic. 4:1-4).
Obviously, for the evangelical Christian there can be no contradiction in Scripture generally; neither is there any in Christ's teaching particularly. How, then, can we reconcile such seemingly contradictory passages? And more importantly, how do we deal with Matthew 7:13-14 in light of his optimistic expectations?
The resolution to the matter is to realize "our Lord's purpose is rather an ethical impression than a prophetic disclosure."
That is, He is urging His disciples to consider the present situation they witness round about them. They are to look around them and see that so many souls are presently perishing, so few men are seeking righteousness and salvation. What will they do about this sad predicament? Do they love Him enough to seek its reversal? Christ's challenge to them is ethical.
In John 4:35 He urges the dim-eyed disciples to see that there was much work to be done: "Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!” In Matthew 7 He warns against false prophets that will arise among the people (Matt. 7:15-20). Then He warns that a man must hear and act upon His words (Matt. 7:21-27). His disciples must feel the horror of the present vastness of the multitude entering the broad way to destruction.
Certainly the gate is narrow: only He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). But His statement in Matthew 7:13-14 does not imply that it will always and forever be the case that few will be saved in every era of history. In fact, there are numerous indications, as we have seen, that a great multitude of men will be saved, that the world as an organic system will experience the redeeming work of Christ, that all of His enemies will be subdued.
The Fall of Adam has taken an enormous toll upon the race of man, to be sure. But the resurrection and ascension of Christ will surely outstrip the effects of the Fall as history unfolds. This is why He delays His coming, so that He may gather the elect in. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
That the Lord is using the statement in Matthew 7:13-14 as an ethical prod rather than a prophetic expectation is evident from His use of it in another context. In Luke 13:23, we read: "Then one said to Him, 'Lord, are there few who are saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us,” and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from.” “ (Luke 13:24-25). Here He refuses to answer the question regarding the number of the saved. This was one of those questions that was asked in order to evade Christ's call to righteousness. The Lord was not prone to allow such rabbit trails to lead Him away from calling men to commitment. His statement in Matthew 7:13-14 served His purpose. Let us avoid this particular rabbit trail.
Last edited:
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Similar threads
