AN OFT OVERLOOKED LESSON FROM JACOB'S LADDER

[Nancy]

It is , very wrong! And it;s short sighted by the pastor.

I wonder if he kicked out the gossips too...they do far more harm...they damage others and the Church, ....the smokers only do harm to themselves.

.....H

Yes, and I wonder if he ever eats fatty and sugary food...McDonald's anyone? ...yes? BAM- Your OUT of Gods family!...really dislike legalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

and yet he was, born again believers know that their works don't save them and that's precisely what Jesus condemned in Matt 7:22-23. salvation is a gift GG, not a reward.
I see you don't like to answer questions. I wonder why?
I've answered all of yours.

Salvation comes as a result of faith.
For by grace we are saved, THROUGH faith.
God is good and offers us His grace. To all, BTW.
Then by the faith we demonstrate, we are saved.

Jesus did not condemn works in Mathew 7:22-23.
He condemned those who do not do works ... it's called lawlessness, not following the law. THIS is what Jesus condemned.
OR please show me the verse where He condemns works.
It seems to me to be important to understand what Jesus was trying to teach in His ministry. It seems as though today, many do not understand it.


The New Covenant is based on what Jesus did on the cross, not what man can do for himself.

I've asked you what the difference is between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. Could you please post the difference?
I asked you what the promise is and you never answered...
What IS the promise?

The New Covenant is also based on what man can do for himself.
Jesus did His part, do we not do ours?
What IS our part anyway?

 

[GodsGrace]

False prophets -- by definition -- are unsaved. So why would Jesus state the obvious? Those who are "inwardly ravening wolves" cannot possibly be the children of God.

Of course. To believe also means to obey. But salvation -- eternal life -- is God's GIFT of grace. And those who are saved obey Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9).

Yes, we do like to overlook Ephesians 2:10, don't we?

I hear on these threads that not everyone who believes he is saved obeys God.
Some tell me that even if they live a life of sin they are still covered by the blood.

False prophets are not unsaved by definition. What is a false prophet but one who twists the word of God into his own beliefs; which could be debated.

Is OSAS a false doctrine?
Is not believing in the Trinity a false doctrine?
Is believing Jesus is just a god a false doctrine?
Is Calvinism a false doctrine?
Is Sunday worship a false doctrine?

Are all those who believe in the above unsaved?

 

[Nancy]

Yes, we do like to overlook Ephesians 2:10, don't we?

I hear on these threads that not everyone who believes he is saved obeys God.
Some tell me that even if they live a life of sin they are still covered by the blood.

False prophets are not unsaved by definition. What is a false prophet but one who twists the word of God into his own beliefs; which could be debated.

Is OSAS a false doctrine?
Is not believing in the Trinity a false doctrine?
Is believing Jesus is just a god a false doctrine?
Is Calvinism a false doctrine?
Is Sunday worship a false doctrine?

Are all those who believe in the above unsaved?

Good morning GodsGrace,
As I see it, there are 2 kinds of "works". The 1st is done so as to bring glory to themselves. the 2nd is the good works that come from the heart, prompted by the Spirit, where Glory is given wholly to the Lord and, of course, this is the true "good works" of faith. JMO

 

[Enoch111]

False prophets are not unsaved by definition.

Ravening wolves by definition are not sheep.

 

[Helen]

...Agree... @Nancy Works are the fruit of love.
The two commandments Jesus left are what produced 'good fruit=good works.
Fruit baring comes naturally from Abiding in the Vine.
If good works are anything but effortless then they are not 'good works' but our own.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning GodsGrace,
As I see it, there are 2 kinds of "works". The 1st is done so as to bring glory to themselves. the 2nd is the good works that come from the heart, prompted by the Spirit, where Glory is given wholly to the Lord and, of course, this is the true "good works" of faith. JMO

Nancy,
These are the two types of works I'm familiar with...:

1. One does good works/deeds because he's been taught that this will get him saved and going to heaven. He is not born from above and does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him. He is not as Jesus explained in John 3.3, 5.

2. One is saved and is doing good works just like the person above but they know God and have a good relationship with Him and they are as Jesus explained in John 3.3,5.

Is there a third type? What does it mean to give glory to oneself??

 

[GodsGrace]

Ravening wolves by definition are not sheep.

Mathew 24:24
Mathew 16:11-12
Acts 20:28-30
2 Peter 3:17

Acts states that even from amoung ourselves some will rise up and attempt to draw away the saved.

Ravenous wolves could look like sheep.

Is my list a list of ravenous wolves?
How can we know for sure who is and who isn't?
It's a problem... Here it is again:

Is OSAS a false doctrine?
Is not believing in the Trinity a false doctrine?
Is believing Jesus is just a god a false doctrine?
Is Calvinism a false doctrine?
Is Sunday worship a false doctrine?

 

[Nancy]

...Agree... @Nancy Works are the fruit of love.
The two commandments Jesus left are what produced 'good fruit=good works.
Fruit baring comes naturally from Abiding in the Vine.
If good works are anything but effortless then they are not 'good works' but our own.

AMEN to that. Back in the 90's when going throught the motions, so to speak but reading all I could get my hands on...I was constantly (in my own spirit) being convicted of my lack of good works...did not understand how it worked and, if someone would want a ride somewhere or certain favors...I would do it...but grudgingly . I justified myself by the fact that I have always worked full time jobs as well as a few on the side and tried to convince myself that my time off was earned!!! When the collection plate came around---I gave grudgingly . Fast forward to 10 yrs later- I now LOVE to be able to give from my heart because I DO Love the Lord, I DO love the Church and all of our missions. I now SEE!! :)

 

[Nancy]

Nancy,
These are the two types of works I'm familiar with...:

1. One does good works/deeds because he's been taught that this will get him saved and going to heaven. He is not born from above and does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him. He is not as Jesus explained in John 3.3, 5.

2. One is saved and is doing good works just like the person above but they know God and have a good relationship with Him and they are as Jesus explained in John 3.3,5.

Is there a third type? What does it mean to give glory to oneself??

Awesome Scriptures for this...No third type. To give glory to ones self is to boast of what they did..like, parading it in public like "Look what I did! Aren't I Godly?
I will give you a true example of the other kind right from my own Church! There is a man at my Church named Peter...he is almost 70 yrs. old but is a workhorse, he always has his hands busy...for others. One day, while I was in the house doing things, I noticed Peter pulling away out of the corner of my eye and wondered, hm...whats he up to now, lol...well, I went out front, then in the back yard...He mowed my lawn and pulled up this old, rotting wood platform that the previous owners put down (no idea why, lol) and then he planted grass seed. I mean, really?? He does stuff like that all the time, for anybody at all! And since then he has come around just doing things needing done, then he just leaves...does not let you know he is there, doesn't say goodbye...he just moves along because that man (IMO) Peter truly lives this scripture: Ephesians 2:10- For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And that is what Peter does, he just moves on and, when he sees a need...he recognizes it as one of those good works that the Lord created him for, so he "walks in them" literally, walks into them because they were there already, placed by God (which God prepared beforehand)
In Him!
-nancy

 

[Heb 13:8]

I've asked you what the difference is between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. Could you please post the difference?
I asked you what the promise is and you never answered...
What IS the promise?

The New Covenant is also based on what man can do for himself.
Jesus did His part, do we not do ours?
What IS our part anyway?

Isn't the Mosaic cov. based on animal sacrifices? Whereas the New cov is based on the shed blood of Christ. My part is to show people the finished work of the cross, death, burial, resurrection.

Are you born again GG, time is short. Did you know that we're living in the end times?

A - Admit you're a sinner
B - Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead
C - Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

- God bless

 

[Nancy]

I've asked you what the difference is between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. Could you please post the difference?
I asked you what the promise is and you never answered...
What IS the promise?

The New Covenant is also based on what man can do for himself.
Jesus did His part, do we not do ours?
What IS our part anyway?

Hello GodsGrace. I just want to chime in for a second about "What IS our part anyway?"
If you are talking about salvation through His shed blood then...you do nothing at all because He already did it. It's finished, and it worked...no need for Him to die over and over again...so to speak. There is nothing that YOU could DO on your own to add one iota to salvation...it is not earned anyhow...as you know, it's a gift from God.

Everything after the New Birth, there is still nothing YOU can do as per "your part" other than allow the Spirit of the Living God live through you...JMO :)

 

[Nancy]

Awesome Scriptures for this...No third type. To give glory to ones self is to boast of what they did..like, parading it in public like "Look what I did! Aren't I Godly?
I will give you a true example of the other kind right from my own Church! There is a man at my Church named Peter...he is almost 70 yrs. old but is a workhorse, he always has his hands busy...for others. One day, while I was in the house doing things, I noticed Peter pulling away out of the corner of my eye and wondered, hm...whats he up to now, lol...well, I went out front, then in the back yard...He mowed my lawn and pulled up this old, rotting wood platform that the previous owners put down (no idea why, lol) and then he planted grass seed. I mean, really?? He does stuff like that all the time, for anybody at all! And since then he has come around just doing things needing done, then he just leaves...does not let you know he is there, doesn't say goodbye...he just moves along because that man (IMO) Peter truly lives this scripture: Ephesians 2:10- For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And that is what Peter does, he just moves on and, when he sees a need...he recognizes it as one of those good works that the Lord created him for, so he "walks in them" literally, walks into them because they were there already, placed by God (which God prepared beforehand)
In Him!
-nancy

Just want reiterate on this...after re-reading your OP: "1. One does good works/deeds because he's been taught that this will get him saved and going to heaven. He is not born from above and does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him. He is not as Jesus explained in John 3.3, 5."<---That is a lie from the pits of hell! Our works (no matter HOW wonderful they are in this world) are as filthy rags to God...ONLY the sacrifice of the PERFECT (Jesus) could EVER take away the sins of the IMPERFECT (us). Think about it, how do we even think we could live up to or sacrifice ANYTHING ( He owns it all anyway, lol) that could come ANYWHERE NEAR His standard of PERFECTION?
Well, obviously, we can't. So, I'll accept that awesome gift any day :) ...

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't the Mosaic cov. based on animal sacrifices? Whereas the New cov is based on the shed blood of Christ. My part is to show people the finished work of the cross, death, burial, resurrection.

Are you born again GG, time is short. Did you know that we're living in the end times?

A - Admit you're a sinner
B - Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead
C - Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

- God bless

No. That's not the Mosaic Covenant and that's not the New Covenant.
You also haven't explained what the promise is.

You do have a part. The New Covenant DOES NOT say you DO NOT have a part.
Actually, you have the same part the Israelites did while wandering through the desert.

So stop worrying about me, since you don't have the answers.
And find out about the two covenants and how they're different.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello GodsGrace. I just want to chime in for a second about "What IS our part anyway?"
If you are talking about salvation through His shed blood then...you do nothing at all because He already did it. It's finished, and it worked...no need for Him to die over and over again...so to speak. There is nothing that YOU could DO on your own to add one iota to salvation...it is not earned anyhow...as you know, it's a gift from God.

Everything after the New Birth, there is still nothing YOU can do as per "your part" other than allow the Spirit of the Living God live through you...JMO :)

But in post no. 71 you mentioned how Peter likes to do things for people.
WHO is doing God's will? Those who do as Peter does, or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?

There's too many roaming around these days telling Christians they don't have to do anything at all. This is not what Jesus taught.

This is what Jesus taught:
Mathew 21:28-32
28“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

The son who did the will of the Father was was the right one.
John the Baptist came preaching righteousness, doing right in the eyes of God, but the pharisees did not believe him; the tax collectors who did will get into heaven before those who THINK they know what God wants.

Jesus said to treat all as if we were treating Him:

Mathew 25:33-46
Again, Jesus did not speak of being saved, He spoke about doing good deeds for the poor and hungry and sick.

Jesus said to be the light of the world. He NEVER said we're to do nothing because He already had done it all.
Mathew 23:23
Woe to the pharisees who neglected the weightier things of THE LAW, justice and mercy and faithfulness; things they should have done, WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS.

 

[Nancy]

But in post no. 71 you mentioned how Peter likes to do things for people.
WHO is doing God's will? Those who do as Peter does, or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?

There's too many roaming around these days telling Christians they don't have to do anything at all. This is not what Jesus taught.

This is what Jesus taught:
Mathew 21:28-32
28“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

The son who did the will of the Father was was the right one.
John the Baptist came preaching righteousness, doing right in the eyes of God, but the pharisees did not believe him; the tax collectors who did will get into heaven before those who THINK they know what God wants.

Jesus said to treat all as if we were treating Him:

Mathew 25:33-46
Again, Jesus did not speak of being saved, He spoke about doing good deeds for the poor and hungry and sick.

Jesus said to be the light of the world. He NEVER said we're to do nothing because He already had done it all.
Mathew 23:23
Woe to the pharisees who neglected the weightier things of THE LAW, justice and mercy and faithfulness; things they should have done, WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS.

"But in post no. 71 you mentioned how Peter likes to do things for people.
WHO is doing God's will? Those who do as Peter does, or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?

I say Peter is doing Gods will...but, NOT for salvation, he just has the Spirit working through him...he looks for NO glory for himself...he NEVER toot's his own horn, ever...that would be taking glory for himself. The bible says that those who brag on things they did have their reward...of men, not God:
Matt 6:2
“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
"...or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?
Jesus did do it all- all the work for our salvation. NO HUMAN could gain salvation through works.
Yes...faith without works is dead, it is just which KIND of work we do...is it to His glory or ours? And, this has nothing at all to do with salvation. I believe true works of the Spirit just start to flow from the heart as our compassion for others grows in the Lord. I find that I WANT to help others now where as when a babe in Christ, still sucking my thumb and drinking milk, I did it out of a sense of obligation rather than from the heart. What a huge transformation that was for me. I was such a selfish person BC. But...He has softened my heart more and more and that prompts me to WANT to walk into the good works He already preordained for us TO walk right into. You see a need and can help, will you choose to help out of Love or obligation. God want's us to be cheerful givers...money, time, resources...
Bottom line, IMO is that true good works most certainly SHOULD naturally spring from the heart, not recognition of men.
Bless you!
-nancy

 

[Helen]

Acts states that even from among ourselves some will rise up and attempt to draw away the saved.

Ravenous wolves could look like sheep.

Is my list a list of ravenous wolves?
How can we know for sure who is and who isn't?
It's a problem... Here it is again:

Is OSAS a false doctrine?
Is not believing in the Trinity a false doctrine?
Is believing Jesus is just a god a false doctrine?
Is Calvinism a false doctrine?
Is Sunday worship a false doctrine?

I am remembering the days when we hardly ever agreed with each other
But now we agree more than disagree.
Maybe it is just a case of understand better what the other person is saying..

I guess the answer here is..to the people who look on, it is a false doctrine..but to the ones that believe it..it is not false, but their truth.

On this side we will never know for sure , who is and who isn't. We get a good idea by seeing the fruit..but even then not 100%
Obviously I don't think your list is revenous wolves.

I guess the real question is...do any of the jeopardize the believers entrance into the kingdom?

To me I would say only one..Sunday worship doesn't, Calvinism doesn't.
Not believing the trinity doesn't. OSAS doesn't...
But believing that Jesus is just a god..would make believing in the finished work of Christ impossible.

Just my thoughts...H

 

[GodsGrace]

"But in post no. 71 you mentioned how Peter likes to do things for people.
WHO is doing God's will? Those who do as Peter does, or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?

I say Peter is doing Gods will...but, NOT for salvation, he just has the Spirit working through him...he looks for NO glory for himself...he NEVER toot's his own horn, ever...that would be taking glory for himself. The bible says that those who brag on things they did have their reward...of men, not God:
Matt 6:2
“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
"...or those who say they need do nothing because Jesus has "done it all"?
Jesus did do it all- all the work for our salvation. NO HUMAN could gain salvation through works.
Yes...faith without works is dead, it is just which KIND of work we do...is it to His glory or ours? And, this has nothing at all to do with salvation. I believe true works of the Spirit just start to flow from the heart as our compassion for others grows in the Lord. I find that I WANT to help others now where as when a babe in Christ, still sucking my thumb and drinking milk, I did it out of a sense of obligation rather than from the heart. What a huge transformation that was for me. I was such a selfish person BC. But...He has softened my heart more and more and that prompts me to WANT to walk into the good works He already preordained for us TO walk right into. You see a need and can help, will you choose to help out of Love or obligation. God want's us to be cheerful givers...money, time, resources...
Bottom line, IMO is that true good works most certainly SHOULD naturally spring from the heart, not recognition of men.
Bless you!
-nancy

We're all saved people here Nancy.
I'm always talking about saved people.
I know works don't save anyone...that was my number 1, remember?
I just think it's dangerous to say that we don't have to do anything because Jesus did it all.
I think this might be leading new Christians astray. Revelation 21:27...I worry that they don't understand there has to be a change. We like to say that the Holy Spirit does this and I know for sure it's through the Holy Spirit, but I also hear those that tell me sin is no problem... Someone on here said it just yesterday.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am remembering the days when we hardly ever agreed with each other
But now we agree more than disagree.
Maybe it is just a case of understand better what the other person is saying..

I guess the answer here is..to the people who look on, it is a false doctrine..but to the ones that believe it..it is not false, but their truth.

On this side we will never know for sure , who is and who isn't. We get a good idea by seeing the fruit..but even then not 100%
Obviously I don't think your list is revenous wolves.

I guess the real question is...do any of the jeopardize the believers entrance into the kingdom?

To me I would say only one..Sunday worship doesn't, Calvinism doesn't.
Not believing the trinity doesn't. OSAS doesn't...
But believing that Jesus is just a god..would make believing in the finished work of Christ impossible.

Just my thoughts...H

I agree.
If Jesus is just a god, and someone is "worshipping" Him, then He is breaking the first and most important commandment. He is worshipping a false god.
Deuteronomy 6:4

As to the rest, I think we agree. It's always the language.
I'll bet @Nancy agrees too, it's just that nowadays we hear things differently because of the hyper-grace movement and the faith only movement. IMO.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am remembering the days when we hardly ever agreed with each other
But now we agree more than disagree.
Maybe it is just a case of understand better what the other person is saying..

I guess the answer here is..to the people who look on, it is a false doctrine..but to the ones that believe it..it is not false, but their truth.

On this side we will never know for sure , who is and who isn't. We get a good idea by seeing the fruit..but even then not 100%
Obviously I don't think your list is revenous wolves.

I guess the real question is...do any of the jeopardize the believers entrance into the kingdom?

To me I would say only one..Sunday worship doesn't, Calvinism doesn't.
Not believing the trinity doesn't. OSAS doesn't...
But believing that Jesus is just a god..would make believing in the finished work of Christ impossible.

Just my thoughts...H

P.S. Someone on this forum told me just today that I must not be saved.
Why? Because I say that we're to obey Jesus.
This is pretty strange to me!