ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[tom55]

Tom55,

Its fine that you pulled a definition off the net, but you should instead look at the Strongs greek definition. Its a lot simpler. An even better plan is to look how its used in the Bible.

Paul said we are predestined (and it befuddles me why I'm even debating it since its clearly in the Bible) but he still spoke of the need for leadership. He also spoke of trials, tribulations and giving thanks for them. So i remain within the confines of the Bible when i speak of hiccups and wrenches.

Speaking of which, again I'm not interested in your logic. So if you think its illogical that God will through wrenches into your life.... Don't care. God threw quite a few in Joseph's life.

As for your road and roller coaster scienerio talk.... Sorry I just didn't find anything i wanted to discuss.

Ok...I did and here is Strong's definition:

foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand, determine before, ordain, predestinate

ITS THE SAME THING!!

If you think God throws wrenches in our life to knock us off track and then says, "Get back on track Tom55 because I have predestined you to hell or heaven" then you are delusional. (I don't mean that in a bad way)

Of course you didn't find anything you wanted to discuss because it destroys your false belief of what scripture says. You have twisted scripture. We are not predestined. It isn't logical, biblical or sound doctrine. It is delusional. But I wish you well.

 

[FHII]

Ok...I did and here is Strong's definition:

foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand, determine before, ordain, predestinate

ITS THE SAME THING!!

If you think God throws wrenches in our life to knock us off track and then says, "Get back on track Tom55 because I have predestined you to hell or heaven" then you are delusional. (I don't mean that in a bad way)

Of course you didn't find anything you wanted to discuss because it destroys your false belief of what scripture says. You have twisted scripture. We are not predestined. It isn't logical, biblical or sound doctrine. It is delusional. But I wish you well.

No it doesn't and no i haven't. But what is funny is that you don't have one verse that mentions freewill in the proper concept. Yet i do have verses that say we are predestinated. Yo claim man's logic and I have Bible.

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh really? Which verse is that? And did that verse say only the devil and his angels would be there or was someone thrown into this "lake of fire" with them?

Your argument isn't going to hold up. The verse you are thinking of is Mat 25:41. It doesn't say the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, and the King was saying he was going to throw others in there. Furthermore, you are forgetting a verse that actually is about the lake of fire in Rev 20. Lots of people get thrown into the lake of fire.

God declares the end from the beginning, his council stands and will accomplish all his purpose. That includes throwing people into the lake fire.

You are having trouble following me, so I'll make this plain and simply:

The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with who will end up in the Lake of Fire - of course plenty of humans will end up there - my point is concerning just who the LOF was prepared for, OK?

Now, you claim God deliberately created some humans to be lost and sent to the LOF, right? OK, if that is true, then why didn't Jesus say in Matthew 25:41 KJV that the LOF was prepared for "the devil and his angels AND the humans God deliberately created to be lost from jumpstreet?"

Conclusion: Since Jesus did not say that the LOF was prepared for humans, but only mentioned the devil and his angels, that means that God never intended for humans to go there (because it wasn't prepared for them in the first place) which means He never created any of us to be deliberately lost....which means those humans who do go to the LOF will go there because they chose to go there, and not God. I hope this is clear because I can't see how I can make it any clearer, nor can I see how anyone reading it would continue to believe that God deliberately created humans to go to the LOF (because Jesus never said it was prepared for them, but the devil and his angels alone).

 

[ScaliaFan]

[removed by the mod]​

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"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV

T

This is crucial in establishing that the "many" in verse 12 are in fact born again, grace saved, fully converted, washed-in-the-blood saints. It is impossible to conceive that the selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-absorbed, unsaved are capable of receiving and imparting to others agape love when their very carnal nature is enmity and hatred toward God. "He that is not with Me is against Me," says our Lord.

if you think just having some emotional born-again experience (all by itself ) saves you, you are terribly misled. If you believe in once-saved-always-saved, you are on the pathway to Hell (assuming you allow that philosophy to rule in your life.. in other words, you do whatever you want thinking u are saved regardless of the heinousness of your sins) Hopefully you dont believe such insanity/foolishness

 

[Phoneman777]

if you think just having some emotional born-again experience (all by itself ) saves you, you are terribly misled. If you believe in once-saved-always-saved, you are on the pathway to Hell (assuming you allow that philosophy to rule in your life.. in other words, you do whatever you want thinking u are saved regardless of the heinousness of your sins) Hopefully you dont believe such insanity/foolishness

Rule #1: Faith in Jesus and His Word ALONE is sufficient to make one wise unto salvation. It says so in 2 Timothy 3:15 KJV. We don't need submission to the authority of the Pope, the intercession of priests, Mary, or dead Christians, nor the sacraments including the Eucharist, or anything else to be saved. Got it?

Rule #2: If any further questions or doubts, please refer to Rule # 1.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Rule #1: Faith in Jesus and His Word ALONE is sufficient to make one wise unto salvation. It says so in 2 Timothy 3:15 KJV. We don't need submission to the authority of the Pope, the intercession of priests, Mary, or dead Christians, nor the sacraments including the Eucharist, or anything else to be saved. Got it?

Rule #2: If any further questions or doubts, please refer to Rule # 1.

NOT TRUE!

you are not saved by any good works you do.. your works do no save you, but that does not translate into: You can sin all you want and neglect to do any good works and will still get to Heaven.

you follow that play-book, you won't even WANT to go to Heaven.. That is what egregious sin does to a person, takes away his desire 4 Heaveno

 

[FHII]

You are having trouble following me, so I'll make this plain and simply:

The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with who will end up in the Lake of Fire - of course plenty of humans will end up there - my point is concerning just who the LOF was prepared for, OK?

Now, you claim God deliberately created some humans to be lost and sent to the LOF, right? OK, if that is true, then why didn't Jesus say in Matthew 25:41 KJV that the LOF was prepared for "the devil and his angels AND the humans God deliberately created to be lost from jumpstreet?"

Conclusion: Since Jesus did not say that the LOF was prepared for humans, but only mentioned the devil and his angels, that means that God never intended for humans to go there (because it wasn't prepared for them in the first place) which means He never created any of us to be deliberately lost....which means those humans who do go to the LOF will go there because they chose to go there, and not God. I hope this is clear because I can't see how I can make it any clearer, nor can I see how anyone reading it would continue to believe that God deliberately created humans to go to the LOF (because Jesus never said it was prepared for them, but the devil and his angels alone).

You are using Inferrential Theology, Phoneman... and it doesn't work.

I know very well what Mat 25:41 says and what it doesn't say... First off, it doesn't say "lake of fire", but that's a small point. It does say everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. But you are inferring that means that God didn't make it for people, and therefore God never intended to put people there. Well, those are two inferences that aren't in that verse.

What's worse is that you are taking that inferences and playing trump the scripture with it. That's my term and I'm sure there is a better term for it. But by that I mean you are trying to use the inferences you made in Mat 24:41 to prove that other scripture is wrong. For example 2 Peter 2:12 says some people are natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed. You are trying to say that verse is wrong or doesn't mean what it crystal clearly says due to your inference.

I have other verses. Revelation 20 says whoever isn't written in the book of life is going to be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 17:8 says that some there names weren't ever written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. I have verses that says God worketh everything according after the council of his will, that he will do all his pleasure and that he declared the end from the beginning.

And yet you seem to think you have a strong case against predestination?

 

[Phoneman777]

NOT TRUE!

you are not saved by any good works you do.. your works do no save you, but that does not translate into: You can sin all you want and neglect to do any good works and will still get to Heaven.

you follow that play-book, you won't even WANT to go to Heaven.. That is what egregious sin does to a person, takes away his desire 4 Heaveno

You said that my post # 685 was "not true". Exactly which part is not true? If you hover your mouse pointer over the verse I wrote, you'll see that my post is 100% correct.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hopefully you dont believe such insanity/foolishness

YEs it is so foolish is it not to believe God can do such a thing??

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

YEs the wisdom of God seems foolish to those who dont believe Him...

 

[Phoneman777]

You are using Inferrential Theology, Phoneman... and it doesn't work.

I know very well what Mat 25:41 says and what it doesn't say... First off, it doesn't say "lake of fire", but that's a small point. It does say everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. But you are inferring that means that God didn't make it for people, and therefore God never intended to put people there. Well, those are two inferences that aren't in that verse.

What's worse is that you are taking that inferences and playing trump the scripture with it. That's my term and I'm sure there is a better term for it. But by that I mean you are trying to use the inferences you made in Mat 24:41 to prove that other scripture is wrong. For example 2 Peter 2:12 says some people are natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed. You are trying to say that verse is wrong or doesn't mean what it crystal clearly says due to your inference.

I have other verses. Revelation 20 says whoever isn't written in the book of life is going to be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 17:8 says that some there names weren't ever written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. I have verses that says God worketh everything according after the council of his will, that he will do all his pleasure and that he declared the end from the beginning.

And yet you seem to think you have a strong case against predestination?

OK, "everlasting fire" it is.

I have the weight of Scriptural evidence that the fire is prepared for the devil and his angels ALONE because that's exactly what Jesus said. It is you who are inferring that that fire is prepared for "us" in addition to the devil and his angels because Jesus makes no mention of "us", as you do.

2 Peter 2:12 can just as easily be said to be an illustration of the destruction that is the fate of rebellious men by comparing it to that of the brute beasts which are "made" (raised as food for the table or for sacrifice) WITHOUT necessarily demanding that the verse be interpreted as what you claim - that some men are deliberately made to be lost.

As for God's will, there are plenty of verses which clearly state what His will is and not one suggest that His will is for some to be lost. Psalm 40:8 KJV clearly states that His will is that we obey - which is a lie if He deliberately made some of us to not obey. Also, "God is not willing that ANY should perish". Got that? Not ANY. That means every single one of the human family. Unless "any" means "most but not all".

"From the foundation of the world" can simply be telling us of the time when the Book was created, and not necessarily have anything to do with the timing of the writing, or lack thereof according to you, the names of those who wind up lost. Besides, God told Moses "if any man sin against Me, his name will I blot out..." which CLEARLY shows that those who do have their names in this Book, which is no doubt the same Book of Life, are subject to having their names removed if they choose to sin, which is another monkey wrench in the machinery. If some are created to be deliberately lost and some to be deliberately saved, then why would God say that to Moses in Exodus 32:33 KJV???

 

[tom55]

No it doesn't and no i haven't. But what is funny is that you don't have one verse that mentions freewill in the proper concept. Yet i do have verses that say we are predestinated. Yo claim man's logic and I have Bible.

If I provided the wrong definition from Strongs how about you provide the right one?


I am willing to bet you already know all the bible verses that destroy the predestination theory that reared it's ugly head during the Reformation.Not that it's going to matter since you have already decided what you are want to believe: John 7:17, James 1:13-16,Mark 8:34 I could go on and on but you have already made up your mind.

Your theory is not, LOGICAL, BIBLICAL and you are not a ROBOT.

 

[FHII]

Phoneman

You are still using inferental theology. Concerning mat 25:41, i don't have to infer anytging because they (those who Jesus was speaking about) will be throne into the everlasting fire. So yes, it was meant for them too because they are going there.

"Foundation of the World" is not a marker of when a book was written... Or how ever you out it.... It means when the world was created. In other words got forknew and foreordained it.

Concerning 2 pete 3:8.... Read the whole verse. Peter was talking to "usward", not everybody. It saying God is not willing that any of us should perish.

You brought up another verse from psalms 40 i believe. You used an old arguement I've heard many times before. Whenever the phrases,"whosoever" or "if you" are meantioned its suggested as proof of free will because its thought to be an ooen invitation.

Its not. Its an identification. Its telling us who wil [whatever the promise is]. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that God forenew and forordained it as He declares the end from the beginning.

Finally, back to 2 pete 2:12. It does not say they are AS natural brute BC easts. It says they are brute beasts.

 

[FHII]

If I provided the wrong definition from Strongs how about you provide the right one?


I am willing to bet you already know all the bible verses that destroy the predestination theory that reared it's ugly head during the Reformation.Not that it's going to matter since you have already decided what you are want to believe: John 7:17, James 1:13-16,Mark 8:34 I could go on and on but you have already made up your mind.

Your theory is not, LOGICAL, BIBLICAL and you are not a ROBOT.

None of those verses mention nor support freewill. Read my response to phoneman for the proper explanation.

I don't care about mans logic, my stance is biblical and I'm not a robot.... I am a sheep.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman

You are still using inferental theology. Concerning mat 25:41, i don't have to infer anytging because they (those who Jesus was speaking about) will be throne into the everlasting fire. So yes, it was meant for them too because they are going there.

"Foundation of the World" is not a marker of when a book was written... Or how ever you out it.... It means when the world was created. In other words got forknew and foreordained it.

Concerning 2 pete 3:8.... Read the whole verse. Peter was talking to "usward", not everybody. It saying God is not willing that any of us should perish.

You brought up another verse from psalms 40 i believe. You used an old arguement I've heard many times before. Whenever the phrases,"whosoever" or "if you" are meantioned its suggested as proof of free will because its thought to be an ooen invitation.

Its not. Its an identification. Its telling us who wil [whatever the promise is]. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that God forenew and forordained it as He declares the end from the beginning.

Finally, back to 2 pete 2:12. It does not say they are AS natural brute BC easts. It says they are brute beasts.

I see that you will not be convinced by Scripture or Biblical reasoning, so I'll leave you with this:

Did you know the main appeal of occultism is that of "privileged inclusivity" to the detriment of "undeserving exclusivity"? Lucifer appears to the selfish and self centered, performs a few parlor tricks, convinces them that he has come to illuminate them with the "truth" because they are "worthy" of it, and then promises them riches, honor, glory, fame, etc. if they will worship him.

The world is run by people belonging to Luciferian secret societies - the secret of course is that they worship Lucifer. They walk around with an air of superiority believing that those who have not been chosen deserve to suffer: to suffer under the oppressive regimes they themselves create; to suffer starvation and decimation resulting from economies they collapse; to die in wars and conflict that they orchestrate; to suffer under false, hopeless religious systems they disseminate while fiercely warring against God's Word - all for the purpose of financial gain and the establishment of the NWO.

Here is a link to a very informative Youtube presentation which you may find extremely interesting entitled "The Secret Behind Secret Societies" by Pastor Prof. Dr. Walter J. Vieth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGLpgZwYrbg

 

[FHII]

Phoneman

The warning is there to the predestinated to keep them away from such things. Its also there to condemn others. Simple as that.

The line of reasoning you are using is not new: that there is no reason to behave/believe if you are predestinated. That's an untrue statement. We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son (rom 8:29). He chose us in him before the foundations of the world to be holy and without blame before him in love (eph 1:4). He predestinated those who first trusted in Christ (eph 1:11-12).

That's sound Bible my friend! The term is in the Bible 4 times and it MUST apply to someone! There are many other verses in the bible that don't use the term but do the concept.

Are we predestinated for heaven? Sure, but that doesn't mean the path is different.

 

[FHII]

I see that you will not be convinced by Scripture or Biblical reasoning, so I'll leave you with this:

Did you know the main appeal of occultism is that of "privileged inclusivity" to the detriment of "undeserving exclusivity"? Lucifer appears to the selfish and self centered, performs a few parlor tricks, convinces them that he has come to illuminate them with the "truth" because they are "worthy" of it, and then promises them riches, honor, glory, fame, etc. if they will worship him.

The world is run by people belonging to Luciferian secret societies - the secret of course is that they worship Lucifer. They walk around with an air of superiority believing that those who have not been chosen deserve to suffer: to suffer under the oppressive regimes they themselves create; to suffer starvation and decimation resulting from economies they collapse; to die in wars and conflict that they orchestrate; to suffer under false, hopeless religious systems they disseminate while fiercely warring against God's Word - all for the purpose of financial gain and the establishment of the NWO.

Here is a link to a very informative Youtube presentation which you may find extremely interesting entitled "The Secret Behind Secret Societies" by Pastor Prof. Dr. Walter J. Vieth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGLpgZwYrbg

You edited your entire post i responded to. Yep, i should've quoted you but didn't.

To reply to your edited post: are you suggesting i am part of a Luciferian secret society? Sure sounds like it.

 

[Phoneman777]

You edited your entire post i responded to. Yep, i should've quoted you but didn't.

To reply to your edited post: are you suggesting i am part of a Luciferian secret society? Sure sounds like it.

Yes, I had second thoughts and decided that it would be pointless to continue the debate.

No, I'm not suggesting you are Luciferian, friend. Just reminding you that Satan loves to invest in God the same deviant motives and reasoning of himself.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman

The warning is there to the predestinated to keep them away from such things. Its also there to condemn others. Simple as that.

The line of reasoning you are using is not new: that there is no reason to behave/believe if you are predestinated. That's an untrue statement. We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son (rom 8:29). He chose us in him before the foundations of the world to be holy and without blame before him in love (eph 1:4). He predestinated those who first trusted in Christ (eph 1:11-12).

That's sound Bible my friend! The term is in the Bible 4 times and it MUST apply to someone! There are many other verses in the bible that don't use the term but do the concept.

Are we predestinated for heaven? Sure, but that doesn't mean the path is different.

A warning with no consequences for our failure to heed it is an unnecessary warning, is it not?

 

[FHII]

A warning with no consequences for our failure to heed it is an unnecessary warning, is it not?

If you say so. But nonetheless it id truth.

 

[FHII]

Yes, I had second thoughts and decided that it would be pointless to continue the debate.

No, I'm not suggesting you are Luciferian, friend. Just reminding you that Satan loves to invest in God the same deviant motives and reasoning of himself.

Well you ought to first find out who Lucifer is. Cause he isn't Satan.