ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

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Phoneman777

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"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV

The "many" of verse 12 are said to possess "agape" love which is the highest, purest form of expressed love. It is wholly selfless, self-sacrificing, and self-abasing love and is why it is referred to as "Godly love".

This is crucial in establishing that the "many" in verse 12 are in fact born again, grace saved, fully converted, washed-in-the-blood saints. It is impossible to conceive that the selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-absorbed, unsaved are capable of receiving and imparting to others agape love when their very carnal nature is enmity and hatred toward God. "He that is not with Me is against Me," says our Lord.

Verse 12 goes on to say that because of iniquity - deliberate, known, presumptuous sin - the agape of these many will "wax cold". Notice that this change from hot, living agape to cold, dead agape is not a abrupt, sudden change, but a gradual cooling until it is completely cold and dead. The road to perdition is traveled on foot by one rebellious step after another.

This brings us to the crux of the issue: If the saints are:
  • known by their agape for one another (John 13:35 KJV)
  • known by their agape for God Whom they have not seen (1 John 4:20 KJV)
  • and are known for having the agape of God perfected in them (1 John 2:5 KJV)
...then how can anyone who no longer possesses agape be any longer numbered with the saints? The answer is that they are not.

Finally, Jesus begins verse 13 with the contrasting conjunction "but" which contrasts those who through willful indulgence in iniquity allowed their once perfected agape to die with him who through patient continuance in well doing had his agape preserved and perfected by God. Through their own rebellion, they became bankrupt of agape which rendered them incapable of fulfilling the Two Great Commandments.
 

epostle1

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It looks to me the verse is saying the absolute for sure way of knowing you are saved is after you are dead. I think that is what "persevere to the end" means.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
read more here
 

ATP

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Looks like we are being saved from war...

So what about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24:13 NIV..Ez 40-48, Matt 24:15 NIV, Psalm 83 NIV, Ez 38-39 NIV.

http://biblehub.com/...tthew/24-13.htm- sózó: to save: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

Endurance to the end of life is in every case the condition of salvation, in the full meaning of the word. But the context rather leads us to see in the “end” the close of the period of which our Lord speaks, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem; and so the words “shall be saved” at least include deliverance from the doom of those who were involved in that destruction.

The disciples had asked concerning the times, When these things should be? Christ gave them no answer to that; but they had also asked, What shall be the sign? This question he answers fully. The prophecy first respects events near at hand, the destruction of Jerusalem,

He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved - The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe.

Mt 24:1-51. Christ's Prophecy of the Destruction of Jerusalem, and Warnings Suggested by It to Prepare for His Second Coming. ( = Mr 13:1-37; Lu 21:5-36).

For the exposition, see on [1355]Mr 13:1-37.

the same shall be saved; with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan (u), and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

εἰς τέλος] not perpetuo (Fritzsche), which, as the connection shows (Matthew 24:6), is too indefinite; but: unto the end, till the last, until the troubles will have come to an end, which, as appears from the context (σωθήσεται), will, in point of fact, be coincident with the second advent. Comp. Matthew 24:30-31; Matthew 10:22. The context forbids such interpretations as: unto death (Elsner, Kuinoel, Ebrard), until the destruction of Jerusalem (Krebs, Rosenmüller, R. Hofmann),

Verse 13. - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). Here is a note of consolation amid the refrain of woe. Patience and perseverance shall be crowned at the last. "The end" means primarily the destruction of Jerusalem, and the salvation promised is safety in that day of peril. It is believed that no Christians perished in the siege or after it (see ver. 16).
 

ATP

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kepha31 said:
It looks to me the verse is saying the absolute for sure way of knowing you are saved is after you are dead. I think that is what "persevere to the end" means.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
read more here
Good point. This verse does say we are secure in our redemption forever..

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

- ATP
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
The "many" of verse 12 are said to possess "agape" love which is the highest, purest form of expressed love. It is wholly selfless, self-sacrificing, and self-abasing love and is why it is referred to as "Godly love".
You would need to prove that the words "psuchó" and "sbennumi" are antonyms.

Matt 24:12 NIV Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

1 Thess 5:19 NIV Do not quench the Spirit.

- ATP
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV

"Because iniquity shall abound"....as it does in our world today...."the love of many shall wax cold." This could be describing almost any church in the United States. It doesn't seem so long ago that Christians would be there for one another...if one of their number were hurt or sick, there would be brothers and sisters who would get together and see to it that the family was cared for. I remember my Grandma going to people's homes to cook and clean for them, and my Grandpa buying food and other necessities for families whose father's were out of work. If someone had a baby, she came home to an immaculate house with plenty of food and volunteers who would cook for her and help her with housework and even baby care.
And whatever happened to the beautiful tradition of going caroling during Christmas? For that matter, why are churches closing down if Christmas happens to fall on Sunday? What happened to the huge church Christmas dinners, where the poor of the community were invited to come and eat while members of the church volunteered to wait on them?

"But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."
In the context of this passage, those who "endure to the end" can only be those who hold on to that agape love. Those are the ones who shall be saved.
That narrow road to life is definitely not too crowded...
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Finally, Jesus begins verse 13 with the contrasting conjunction "but" which contrasts those who through willful indulgence in iniquity allowed their once perfected agape to die with him who through patient continuance in well doing had his agape preserved and perfected by God. Through their own rebellion, they became bankrupt of agape which rendered them incapable of fulfilling the Two Great Commandments.
It looks like the love of believers growing cold is a part of persecution, because the devil is the deceiver. The words "turn away" describes the antichrist spirit, translated "skandalizó" which means to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend. THESE are the one's who are persecuting the believers by using deception.

Matt 24:9 NIV “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Matt 24:10 NIV At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Matt 24:11 NIV and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matt 24:12 NIV Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Matt 24:12 NIV - Commentary on Persecution

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - And because iniquity shall abound,.... Meaning, either the malice and wickedness of outrageous persecutors, which should greatly increase; or the treachery and hatred of the apostates; or the errors and heresies of false teachers; or the wickedness that prevailed in the lives and conversations of some, that were called Christians: for each of these seem to be hinted at in the context, and may be all included, as making up the abounding iniquity here spoken of; the consequence of which would be,

the love of many shall wax cold. This would be the case of many, but not of all; for in the midst of this abounding iniquity, there were some, the ardour of whose love to Christ, to his Gospel, and to the saints, did not abate: but then there were many, whose zeal for Christ, through the violence of persecution, was greatly damped; and through the treachery of false brethren, were shy of the saints themselves, not knowing who to trust; and through the principles of the false teachers, the power of godliness, and the vital heat of religion, were almost lost; and through a love of the world, and of carnal ease and pleasure, love to the saints was grown very chill, and greatly left; as the instances of Demas, and those that forsook the Apostle Paul, at his first answer before Nero, show. This might be true of such, who were real believers in Christ; who might fall under great decays, through the prevalence of iniquity; since it does not say their love shall be lost, but wax cold.

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 12. - Because iniquity shall abound (πληθυνθῆναι, is multiplied). The word rendered "iniquity" is ἀνομία, "lawlessness," general immorality and licence. Impatience of rule and discipline, connivance at and imitation of heathen practices, reacted upon the faith of believers, undermined steadfast adherence to principle. Then was the power of "that wicked one" (ὁ ἄνομος, 2 Thessalonians 2:8) exercised and seen in the lapse of the unstable. The love of many (τῶν πολλῶν, the many, the majority) shall wax cold. "Love" (ἀγάπη) here is used in its general and comprehensive sense, as having God as its chief object and man in subordination thereto. The troubles and persecutions that shall beset believers, the spirit of worldliness and self-seeking that a timid faith encourages, will issue in loosening dependence upon God and trust in his providential care; and internal dissensions will destroy that brotherly love which ought to be characteristic of Christians. Of this lack of energetic love the Lord speaks in his warnings to the Church of Laodicea (Revelation 3:16), "Because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - And because iniquity ... - The word "iniquity" here seems to include the cruelty of the Jews and Romans in their persecutions; the betraying of Christians by those who professed to be such; and the pernicious errors of false prophets arid others. The effect of all this would be, that the ardor of feeling of many Christians would be lessened. The word "wax" means to "become." It is an old Saxon word, not used now in this sense except in the Bible. The fear of death, and the deluding influence of false teachers, would lessen the zeal of many timid and weak professors; perhaps, also, of many real but feeble Christians.

Matthew Poole's Commentary - By the aboundings of iniquity here, we may either understand the rage, and malice, and cruelty of the enemies of the gospel; or the apostasy of such as are professors. Both these are great temptations, and though they will not extinguish that holy fire which God hath kindled in good souls, yet they have oft times a very ill influence upon them, to abate of their former warmth in the ways of God. Or if we understand it of love to brethren, the apostasy of professors much cools the Christian, not knowing who they may trust and confide in as sincere. If by the abounding of iniquity we understand the abounding of profaneness in the general, (which always also aboundeth most in times of persecution), that also hath no small influence upon Christians’ warmth in their profession, to cool and abate it: see Hebrews 10:25 2 Timothy 1:15 4:16.

Matt 24:13 NIV - Commentary on Persecution

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - But he that shall endure to the end,.... In the profession of faith in Christ, notwithstanding the violent persecutions of wicked men; and in the pure and incorrupt doctrines of the Gospel, whilst many are deceived by the false teachers that shall arise; and in holiness of life and conversation, amidst all the impurities of the age; and shall patiently bear all afflictions, to the end of his life, or to the end of sorrows, of which the above mentioned were the beginning:

the same shall be saved; with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan (u), and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 13. - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). Here is a note of consolation amid the refrain of woe. Patience and perseverance shall be crowned at the last. "The end" means primarily the destruction of Jerusalem, and the salvation promised is safety in that day of peril. It is believed that no Christians perished in the siege or after it (see ver. 16). But τέλος, being here used without the article (differently from vers. 6 and, 14), must not be restricted to one allusion, but must be taken more generally, as indeed a universal axiom, equivalent to "finally," as long as endurance is needed. And the salvation must refer to the soul's sentence at the last day, not to any mere safety of body and life. What the maxim says is this: patient continuance in well doing, resignation under persecutions and afflictions, holding fast the one faith even though it lead to the martyr's death, - this shall win the crown of eternal blessedness. The Christian must not be led astray by false teachers nor offended by the prevalence of scandals, nor let his love be chilled, if he would gain the reward, share in Messiah's glory, and save his soul.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved - The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe. God will protect his people from harm, so that not a hair of the head shall perish." Others, with more probability, have referred this to final salvation, and refer the end to the close of life. "He that bears afflictions and persecutions faithfully that constantly adheres to his religion, and does not shrink until death shall be saved, or shall enter heaven." So Luke Luk 21:18 says, "there shall not an hair of your head perish" - that is, they would be saved. "An hair of the head," or the smallest part or portion, is a proverbial expression, denoting the "certainty and completeness" of their salvation. Luke Luk 21:19 adds further: "In your patience possess ye your souls" - that is, keep your souls "patient;" keep proper possession of patience as your own. It is a part of religion to teach it, and in these trying times let it not depart from you.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Looks like we are being saved from war...

So what about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24:13 NIV..Ez 40-48, Matt 24:15 NIV, Psalm 83 NIV, Ez 38-39 NIV.

http://biblehub.com/...tthew/24-13.htm- sózó: to save: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

Endurance to the end of life is in every case the condition of salvation, in the full meaning of the word. But the context rather leads us to see in the “end” the close of the period of which our Lord speaks, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem; and so the words “shall be saved” at least include deliverance from the doom of those who were involved in that destruction.

The disciples had asked concerning the times, When these things should be? Christ gave them no answer to that; but they had also asked, What shall be the sign? This question he answers fully. The prophecy first respects events near at hand, the destruction of Jerusalem,

He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved - The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe.

Mt 24:1-51. Christ's Prophecy of the Destruction of Jerusalem, and Warnings Suggested by It to Prepare for His Second Coming. ( = Mr 13:1-37; Lu 21:5-36).

For the exposition, see on [1355]Mr 13:1-37.

the same shall be saved; with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan (u), and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

εἰς τέλος] not perpetuo (Fritzsche), which, as the connection shows (Matthew 24:6), is too indefinite; but: unto the end, till the last, until the troubles will have come to an end, which, as appears from the context (σωθήσεται), will, in point of fact, be coincident with the second advent. Comp. Matthew 24:30-31; Matthew 10:22. The context forbids such interpretations as: unto death (Elsner, Kuinoel, Ebrard), until the destruction of Jerusalem (Krebs, Rosenmüller, R. Hofmann),

Verse 13. - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). Here is a note of consolation amid the refrain of woe. Patience and perseverance shall be crowned at the last. "The end" means primarily the destruction of Jerusalem, and the salvation promised is safety in that day of peril. It is believed that no Christians perished in the siege or after it (see ver. 16).
ATP, I fully expected you to show up and totally ignore the focus of this OP which is the implication of the cold death of the agape love of these saints which will go to hell for failing to endure to the end as those who will be saved will do.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
It looks like the love of believers growing cold is a part of persecution, because the devil is the deceiver. The words "turn away" describes the antichrist spirit, translated "skandalizó" which means to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend. THESE are the one's who are persecuting the believers by using deception.

Matt 24:9 NIV “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Matt 24:10 NIV At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Matt 24:11 NIV and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matt 24:12 NIV Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Matt 24:12 NIV - Commentary on Persecution

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - And because iniquity shall abound,.... Meaning, either the malice and wickedness of outrageous persecutors, which should greatly increase; or the treachery and hatred of the apostates; or the errors and heresies of false teachers; or the wickedness that prevailed in the lives and conversations of some, that were called Christians: for each of these seem to be hinted at in the context, and may be all included, as making up the abounding iniquity here spoken of; the consequence of which would be,

the love of many shall wax cold. This would be the case of many, but not of all; for in the midst of this abounding iniquity, there were some, the ardour of whose love to Christ, to his Gospel, and to the saints, did not abate: but then there were many, whose zeal for Christ, through the violence of persecution, was greatly damped; and through the treachery of false brethren, were shy of the saints themselves, not knowing who to trust; and through the principles of the false teachers, the power of godliness, and the vital heat of religion, were almost lost; and through a love of the world, and of carnal ease and pleasure, love to the saints was grown very chill, and greatly left; as the instances of Demas, and those that forsook the Apostle Paul, at his first answer before Nero, show. This might be true of such, who were real believers in Christ; who might fall under great decays, through the prevalence of iniquity; since it does not say their love shall be lost, but wax cold.

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 12. - Because iniquity shall abound (πληθυνθῆναι, is multiplied). The word rendered "iniquity" is ἀνομία, "lawlessness," general immorality and licence. Impatience of rule and discipline, connivance at and imitation of heathen practices, reacted upon the faith of believers, undermined steadfast adherence to principle. Then was the power of "that wicked one" (ὁ ἄνομος, 2 Thessalonians 2:8) exercised and seen in the lapse of the unstable. The love of many (τῶν πολλῶν, the many, the majority) shall wax cold. "Love" (ἀγάπη) here is used in its general and comprehensive sense, as having God as its chief object and man in subordination thereto. The troubles and persecutions that shall beset believers, the spirit of worldliness and self-seeking that a timid faith encourages, will issue in loosening dependence upon God and trust in his providential care; and internal dissensions will destroy that brotherly love which ought to be characteristic of Christians. Of this lack of energetic love the Lord speaks in his warnings to the Church of Laodicea (Revelation 3:16), "Because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - And because iniquity ... - The word "iniquity" here seems to include the cruelty of the Jews and Romans in their persecutions; the betraying of Christians by those who professed to be such; and the pernicious errors of false prophets arid others. The effect of all this would be, that the ardor of feeling of many Christians would be lessened. The word "wax" means to "become." It is an old Saxon word, not used now in this sense except in the Bible. The fear of death, and the deluding influence of false teachers, would lessen the zeal of many timid and weak professors; perhaps, also, of many real but feeble Christians.

Matthew Poole's Commentary - By the aboundings of iniquity here, we may either understand the rage, and malice, and cruelty of the enemies of the gospel; or the apostasy of such as are professors. Both these are great temptations, and though they will not extinguish that holy fire which God hath kindled in good souls, yet they have oft times a very ill influence upon them, to abate of their former warmth in the ways of God. Or if we understand it of love to brethren, the apostasy of professors much cools the Christian, not knowing who they may trust and confide in as sincere. If by the abounding of iniquity we understand the abounding of profaneness in the general, (which always also aboundeth most in times of persecution), that also hath no small influence upon Christians’ warmth in their profession, to cool and abate it: see Hebrews 10:25 2 Timothy 1:15 4:16.

Matt 24:13 NIV - Commentary on Persecution

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - But he that shall endure to the end,.... In the profession of faith in Christ, notwithstanding the violent persecutions of wicked men; and in the pure and incorrupt doctrines of the Gospel, whilst many are deceived by the false teachers that shall arise; and in holiness of life and conversation, amidst all the impurities of the age; and shall patiently bear all afflictions, to the end of his life, or to the end of sorrows, of which the above mentioned were the beginning:

the same shall be saved; with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan (u), and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 13. - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). Here is a note of consolation amid the refrain of woe. Patience and perseverance shall be crowned at the last. "The end" means primarily the destruction of Jerusalem, and the salvation promised is safety in that day of peril. It is believed that no Christians perished in the siege or after it (see ver. 16). But τέλος, being here used without the article (differently from vers. 6 and, 14), must not be restricted to one allusion, but must be taken more generally, as indeed a universal axiom, equivalent to "finally," as long as endurance is needed. And the salvation must refer to the soul's sentence at the last day, not to any mere safety of body and life. What the maxim says is this: patient continuance in well doing, resignation under persecutions and afflictions, holding fast the one faith even though it lead to the martyr's death, - this shall win the crown of eternal blessedness. The Christian must not be led astray by false teachers nor offended by the prevalence of scandals, nor let his love be chilled, if he would gain the reward, share in Messiah's glory, and save his soul.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved - The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe. God will protect his people from harm, so that not a hair of the head shall perish." Others, with more probability, have referred this to final salvation, and refer the end to the close of life. "He that bears afflictions and persecutions faithfully that constantly adheres to his religion, and does not shrink until death shall be saved, or shall enter heaven." So Luke Luk 21:18 says, "there shall not an hair of your head perish" - that is, they would be saved. "An hair of the head," or the smallest part or portion, is a proverbial expression, denoting the "certainty and completeness" of their salvation. Luke Luk 21:19 adds further: "In your patience possess ye your souls" - that is, keep your souls "patient;" keep proper possession of patience as your own. It is a part of religion to teach it, and in these trying times let it not depart from you.
I only read the first sentence of your lengthy post because it is enough. "Growing cold" is the process under which their agape will go, but the result is cold, dead agape, understand? First cooling, and then cold and dead. Not "cooling but still alive and kicking", but cold and dead and devoid of life - which leaves the saints "agape-less" and lost in the Day of Judgment.

But, in contrast, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, I fully expected you to show up and totally ignore the focus of this OP which is the implication of the cold death of the agape love of these saints which will go to hell for failing to endure to the end as those who will be saved will do.
Post 5.

Phoneman777 said:
I only read the first sentence of your lengthy post because it is enough. "Growing cold" is the process under which their agape will go, but the result is cold, dead agape, understand? First cooling, and then cold and dead. Not "cooling but still alive and kicking", but cold and dead and devoid of life - which leaves the saints "agape-less" and lost in the Day of Judgment.

But, in contrast, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."
I guess God is a liar then, Eph 4:30 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV.
 

Phoneman777

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The Barrd said:
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV

"Because iniquity shall abound"....as it does in our world today...."the love of many shall wax cold." This could be describing almost any church in the United States. It doesn't seem so long ago that Christians would be there for one another...if one of their number were hurt or sick, there would be brothers and sisters who would get together and see to it that the family was cared for. I remember my Grandma going to people's homes to cook and clean for them, and my Grandpa buying food and other necessities for families whose father's were out of work. If someone had a baby, she came home to an immaculate house with plenty of food and volunteers who would cook for her and help her with housework and even baby care.
And whatever happened to the beautiful tradition of going caroling during Christmas? For that matter, why are churches closing down if Christmas happens to fall on Sunday? What happened to the huge church Christmas dinners, where the poor of the community were invited to come and eat while members of the church volunteered to wait on them?

"But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."
In the context of this passage, those who "endure to the end" can only be those who hold on to that agape love. Those are the ones who shall be saved.
That narrow road to life is definitely not too crowded...
Amen, although the "many" of verse 12 are saved-by-grace-through-faith saints, they will be lost and die the same death they allowed their agape to die at the hands of iniquity when Jesus stood by ready to help them endure to the end as does the man of verse 13.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Post 5.


I guess God is a liar then, Eph 4:30 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV.
ATP, did you not read the OP? Please do not post OSAS "proof texts" here. This scope of this thread is Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, capice? Post them at "The Doctrine of OSAS" by Justaname.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
which leaves the saints "agape-less" and lost in the Day of Judgment.
The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers that haven't reached salvation yet.

NON-OSAS goes against the good news of the Gospel. They are not His sheep because they did not believe John 10:26 NIV.

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, did you not read the OP? Please do not post OSAS "proof texts" here. This scope of this thread is Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, capice? Post them at "The Doctrine of OSAS" by Justaname.
You're trying to prove Christians can go to hell by using Matt 24:12-13, but we can't discuss OSAS. :rolleyes:

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, I fully expected you to show up and totally ignore the focus of this OP which is the implication of the cold death of the agape love of these saints which will go to hell for failing to endure to the end as those who will be saved will do.
This is false. There is not one scripture that says believers will go to hell.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers that haven't reached salvation yet.

NON-OSAS goes against the good news of the Gospel. They are not His sheep because they did not believe John 10:26 NIV.

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
ATP, you are alone in your belief that the Bible teaches that the "agape-less" people of verse 12 will go to heaven, bro.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
You're trying to prove Christians can go to hell by using Matt 24:12-13, but we can't discuss OSAS. :rolleyes:


This is false. There is not one scripture that says believers will go to hell.
"Agape-less" people will not be in heaven so the process of elimination should help you figure out where they will go, bro.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, you are alone in your belief that the Bible teaches that the "agape-less" people of verse 12 will go to heaven, bro.
Well, not really. God is not contradictory..Eph 4:30 NIV, Heb 9:12. We are secure forever Phone. You are taking Matt 24:12-13 wayyy out of context.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
"Agape-less" people will not be in heaven so the process of elimination should help you figure out where they will go, bro.
Then God lied and did not die for all sins. :wacko:
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
You're trying to prove Christians can go to hell by using Matt 24:12-13, but we can't discuss OSAS. :rolleyes:


This is false. There is not one scripture that says believers will go to hell.
There are MANY verses that teach just that, but the point of this thread is whether or not "agape-less" people who once had agape will go to heaven.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
There are MANY verses that teach just that, but the point of this thread is whether or not "agape-less" people who once had agape will go to heaven.
Read post 5. Prove it!