ANOTHER FACTOR THAT PROVES AMIL FALSE, PAUL WISHED FOR A RESURRECTION OF THE UNJUST ALSO

[Truth7t7]

Those who use FALSE ALLEGORY to interpret Bible Scripture often do what Truth7t7 tries to do with the above comparison.

The Isaiah 4 Chapter is NOT... about the WICKED LEFTOVERS OF ZECHARIAH 14:16-19!

Those spoken of in Isaiah 4 are about CHRIST'S ELECT CHURCH!



And I'm going to show brethren in Christ why MOST Churches will not... teach the following events of Zechariah 14 that occur AFTER Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Peoples left "... of all the nations which came against Jerusalem"? Those are saved when Jesus returns? No... it simply means those are NOT CHRIST'S CHURCH! They are the UNSAVED NATIONS that are against Christ and wished to destroy... JERUSALEM at the end of this present world!

And I quoted what GOD Himself said in Zephaniah 3:8-9 that He will gather all nations against Jerusalem in order to pour upon them His indignation, even all His fierce anger, for the earth will be devoured with the fire of His jealousy. That is a direct reference to the last day of this present world, the "day of the Lord" when God's cup of wrath on the 7th Vial is poured out.

Does that look like what the Isaiah 4 chapter is about? God forbid, NO! The Isaiah 4:1 verse "one man" is a symbolic reference to our Lord Jesus Christ! So how can that be about these of Zechariah 14:16-19?

Truth7t7 is just spewing lies of deception against The simple Word of God! That's what he gets for listening to and heeding devils instead of staying in God's written Word.


17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

You mean the "families of the earth" after... Christ's future return, will still have a choice to rebel in that time with refusing to come up to Jerusalem and worship Christ? Yes, but their rebellion won't last long when they learn they can't grow food and feed themselves because of no rain upon their lands.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is that about Christ's elect that serve Him in that future time after His return? No! of course not. Those are about the unsaved 'nations' that can still reject Him spiritually. But physically, they will bow the knee to Christ in that future "thousand years" period of Rev.20. It won't take them long to realize any refusal to bow to Him in worship will be useless.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

That punishment of no rain will be on the lands of the nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, The LORD of hosts, Jesus Christ.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

That "LORD's house" is about the future Millennial "sanctuary" of Ezekiel 47 that Christ will build when He returns, as written in Zechariah 6 about The BRANCH. That "sanctuary" is shown that it will be ON EARTH, in the HOLY LAND, per Ezekiel 47. That is where the "mansions" (abodes of the priests) which Jesus mentioned in His Father's House will be located (see John 14 and Ezekiel 40 thru 47).

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

In that day, for after Christ has returned in our near future, and He builds that future "thousand years" temple in the holy land, only then... will there be no more the Canaanite in God's House. That is a direct pointer to the Biblical events of pagan foreigners having crept into the priesthood of the children of Israel. They represent Satan's children that he sowed according to Lord Jesus in His explanation of the Matthew 13 parable of the tares of the field.

Read It Again In Your Denial Of Biblical Truth!

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[bdavidc]

Nah... what you are espousing is just a doctrine of men, not what is actually written in God's Word. You probably think the implied 2nd resurrection of Revelation 20 happens for the wicked just so they can stand in judgment only to be cast into the "lake of fire". That's not what the Scripture shows at all, but is jut a doctrine by men who can't think beyond their fleshy mind.

And you ADDED... to that Hebrews 9:27 verse, because that verse does NOT say WHEN that time of Judgment happens. But if one HEEDS the Revelation 20 Scripture as written, it shows the unsaved are NOT Judged until AFTER the "thousand years" of that Rev.20 Chapter. And that perfectly aligns with what Jesus said in Revelation 3:9 about the "synagogue of Satan" being made to worship Him at the feet of His elect in that future "thousand years" period. It also aligns perfectly what the Zechariah 14:16-19 Scripture also.



That interpretation of course is FALSE, nothing but a silly doctrine of men trying to scoot what Jesus actually said in the Rev.3:9 verse. Jesus said He will make His enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect, which can only... occur at His future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. I SAID NOTHING ABOUT THOSE OF THAT 'SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN' BEING SAVED. THAT IDEA INSTEAD IS WHAT YOU... SAY.



ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER SAID THE "TARES" OF MATTHEW 13 WOULD BE SAVED. ALL YOU DO HERE IS SCOOT... THE ACTUAL ACTS 24:15 VERSE THAT APOSTLE PAUL SAID.

You clearly didn’t read what I actually wrote, or you’re deliberately twisting it. Nowhere did I say the unjust would be saved, what I pointed out, and what Scripture clearly teaches, is that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, just like Paul said in Acts 24:15. That’s not a “doctrine of men,” that’s the Word of God. Revelation 20 confirms this with two distinct resurrections: the first for the righteous who reign with Christ, and the second for the wicked who are judged after the thousand years (Revelation 20:4–6, 11–15). There is nothing “implied” about it, Scripture lays out the timeline plainly.

As for your claim that Revelation 3:9 proves the enemies of God will worship at the feet of the elect during the thousand-year reign, you’re completely misusing that passage. Jesus was speaking specifically to the church in Philadelphia, not giving a prophecy about the Millennium. That’s reading your assumptions into the text, not taking it as written. Same with Zechariah 14, it describes nations worshiping during the reign of the Messiah, but says nothing about the final resurrection or judgment of the wicked dead. You’re stringing together unrelated passages to support a flawed system.

And regarding Hebrews 9:27, you’re right, it doesn’t say when the judgment happens. But when we let Scripture interpret Scripture, we see the timing laid out in Revelation 20. The fact that you’re so quick to accuse others of adding to the text while you’re inserting your own assumptions should be a warning. Stop scoffing at plain Scripture. The resurrection of the unjust is not something Paul or John made up, it’s part of God’s revealed plan. Just because you don’t like the order God gave doesn’t make it a “doctrine of men.” What I posted stands firmly on what is written.

 

[Jay Ross]

You clearly didn’t read what I actually wrote, or you’re deliberately twisting it. Nowhere did I say the unjust would be saved, what I pointed out, and what Scripture clearly teaches, is that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, just like Paul said in Acts 24:15. That’s not a “doctrine of men,” that’s the Word of God. Revelation 20 confirms this with two distinct resurrections: the first for the righteous who reign with Christ, and the second for the wicked who are judged after the thousand years (Revelation 20:4–6, 11–15). There is nothing “implied” about it, Scripture lays out the timeline plainly.

You have pointed out an error in your Brother in Christ, while also presenting an error/misunderstanding in what you wrote.

Here is what Revelation 20:4-5 and 11-15 clearly states: -

Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15: - The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

NKJV​

Revelation 20:11-15: - The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

NKJV​

What I quoted from your post clearly does not agree with the above passage from Revelation.

During the first resurrection only the Saints who had lost their heads were a part of the first resurrection. The rest of the righteous Saints who were not resurrected during the first resurrection, they had to wait over 1,000 years for when all the peoples of the earth are then to be resurrected.

The Separation of the Sheep from the Goats in Matt 25 also clearly show that the righteous and the unrighteous are judged among those who called Jesus Lord at the time of the GWTR judgement.

Remember that in Ezekiel 34, we are clearly told that there will be two separations taking place at the end of the Seventh Age. The first separation will be the separation of one flock from the second flock, which is then followed by the separation of the Rams from the he goats
​

The fact that you’re so quick to accuse others of adding to the text while you’re inserting your own assumptions should be a warning. Stop scoffing at plain Scripture. The resurrection of the unjust is not something Paul or John made up, it’s part of God’s revealed plan. Just because you don’t like the order God gave doesn’t make it a “doctrine of men.” What I posted stands firmly on what is written.

You should note that all members on this forum who are allowed to post within the "Christion" section of the forum often make the same claims as you have done in this quote. You have demonstrated that you also have not understood the plain scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Davidpt]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where did Jesus indicate that some of the unjust dead would be resurrected in one event (His return) with the rest being resurrected in another event that would occur long after? It seems clear to me that He indicated they would all be resurrected at the same time and then judged. Which is exactly what is indicated in Revelation 20:11-15 as well. There is no indication at all in Revelation 20:11-15 that any of the unsaved dead whose names are not written in the book of life had already previously been cast into the lake of fire before Rev 20:11-15 takes place.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


IOW, this below, unless you think one shouldn't be interpreting Scripture with Scripture sometimes, but other times should be? As in cherry picking, when to not to interpret Scripture with Scripture vs. when to interpret Scripture with Scripture. In this case, meaning interpreting the above in light of Revelation 20.


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that have done good that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; unto the resurrection of life, at the beginning of the millennium

Likewise, for the hour is coming, in the which all that that have done evil that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; unto the resurrection of damnation, after the millennium.

Now nothing is contradicting anything recorded in Revelation 20. Obviously, Revelation 20:11-15 is not pertaining to anyone who has part in the first resurrection. It is only pertaining to those that don't have part in the first resurrection.

Regardless that you obviously disagree, are you going to argue that understanding it like this means the hour never came for both groups?

It might be like saying to those that overtook the U.S. Capitol building in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021, that the hour is coming when you will be judged and sentenced for your crimes. As if anyone would take that be meaning it's involving the same exact hour for each and everyone of them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


IOW, this below, unless you think one shouldn't be interpreting Scripture with Scripture sometimes, but other times should be? As in cherry picking, when to not to interpret Scripture with Scripture vs. when to interpret Scripture with Scripture. In this case, meaning interpreting the above in light of Revelation 20.

Can we just stop with the accusations of cherry picking scripture and all that nonsense already? Let's stop with the insults and just discuss the scriptures. I thought we all came to that agreement in the ECF thread a few days ago?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that have done good that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; unto the resurrection of life, at the beginning of the millennium

Likewise, for the hour is coming, in the which all that that have done evil that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; unto the resurrection of damnation, after the millennium.

Now nothing is contradicting anything recorded in Revelation 20. Obviously, Revelation 20:11-15 is not pertaining to anyone who has part in the first resurrection. It is only pertaining to those that don't have part in the first resurrection.

Regardless that you obviously disagree, are you going to argue that understanding it like this means the hour never came for both groups?

You completely missed the point. Were you not indicating before that you believe some of the unjust dead will be resurrected at His return (the ones described as "the goats" in Matt 25:31-46) and then the rest 1,000+ years later? If so, then I'm asking where is the scripture which teaches that some of the unjust dead are resurrected at His return and the rest of the unjust dead being resurrected 1,000+ years or a long time later? Jesus taught that all of the unjust resurrected dead will be judged at the same time in John 5:28-29 and that can be seen in Rev 20:11-15 as well.

 

[Davidpt]

Can we just stop with the accusations of cherry picking scripture and all that nonsense already? Let's stop with the insults and just discuss the scriptures. I thought we all came to that agreement in the ECF thread a few days ago?


You completely missed the point. Were you not indicating before that you believe some of the unjust dead will be resurrected at His return (the ones described as "the goats" in Matt 25:31-46) and then the rest 1,000+ years later? If so, then I'm asking where is the scripture which teaches that some of the unjust dead are resurrected at His return and the rest of the unjust dead being resurrected 1,000+ years or a long time later? Jesus taught that all of the unjust resurrected dead will be judged at the same time in John 5:28-29 and that can be seen in Rev 20:11-15 as well.

What was nonsensical about me explaining why I am concluding what I am, based on interpretrting Scripture with Scripture? Unless one shouldn't be doing doing that sometimes, but other times should be, I think one should be doing that at all times. So, unless one has an issue with someone interpreting Scripture with Scripture, how then can they pretend their view is not even valid though they are interpreting Scripture with Scriptute in order to arrive at what they are arriving at?

John 5:28 only mentions 2 resurrection events.

1. they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2. they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Revelation 20, likewise, only mentions 2 resurrection events.

1. This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verse 4 and 6.

2. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verses 11-15.

It looks like this then.

1. This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verse 4 and 6.
1. they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verses 11-15.
2. they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

And I have pointed this out before. Nowhere in Revelation 20:5, and I mean absolutely nowhere, does it also say that those who have part in the first resurrection , they too don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. That is obviously significant. Amils need that verse to say that in order for their interpretation to be correct, except it doesn't say that. And the reason it doesn't is clearly simple. It's because they already lived again bodily at the beginning of the millennium. And verse 5, for one, undeniably proves it.

 

[bdavidc]

You should note that all members on this forum who are allowed to post within the "Christion" section of the forum often make the same claims as you have done in this quote. You have demonstrated that you also have not understood the plain scriptures.

Shalom

That doesn’t carry much weight coming from you, since you consistently misread Scripture and twist what it says. If you're trying to get a response out of me, you'll have to do better than that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What was nonsensical about me explaining why I am concluding what I am, based on interpretrting Scripture with Scripture? Unless one shouldn't be doing doing that sometimes, but other times should be, I think one should be doing that at all times.

By saying that it comes across that you're saying you're doing that, but I'm not doing that.

John 5:28 only mentions 2 resurrection events.

1. they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2. they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Revelation 20, likewise, only mentions 2 resurrection events.

1. This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verse 4 and 6.

2. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verses 11-15.

It looks like this then.

1. This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verse 4 and 6.
1. they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(Revelation 20:5) Obviously meaning verses 11-15.
2. they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

You're still not addressing my point. Can you not see that my point relates ONLY to the unjust dead all being resurrected at the same time? Go back and read your post #3 in this thread. You came across like you were saying the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 include unjust resurrected dead, but not all of them. Is that not what you were saying? If not, then who exactly do you think the goats represent?

 

[Jay Ross]

That doesn’t carry much weight coming from you, since you consistently misread Scripture and twist what it says.

I feel the same way about you too as you have demonstrated in you post above by how you have twisted the scriptures to your understanding.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If we can back up a little and approach this topic just with Scripture, and not just the Scripture that appears to prop up our beliefs, we can get God’s view of things.

So how does God view mankind after the fall? They are now flawed, they have lost the perfection of their original creation and are now prone to sin. Was it their fault that Adam threw them under the bus? Doesn’t God know that we fight sin every day of our lives? But if we back up a little further, how does mankind who have never known God, “sin” if they have no idea what sin is? Paul said that without the law outlining what sin was to God, we would never have known what it was to “sin”.

What does God want as far as sinful humanity goes?
2 Pet 3:9…
”The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (NASB)

Does this paint a picture of a God who can’t wait to destroy those who break his laws? What if they never had his laws to begin with? How can he judge them adversely when he desires “ALL to come to repentance”?
This is a loving God, not a vindictive one. Psalm 103:14 says that God “remembers we are dust”.

So from the time that humans had been given God’s laws, they became subject to them. For Adam, he had just one command to obey, and satan lured him into taking sides with the wife whom he had already influenced. So no excuses there. Evicted and cast outside, God allowed the human race to do as he told them in Genesis…to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”….but they did not take God’s law with them because he had not given them any. That resulted in the “days of Noah” becoming a horrible time to be alive when demonic interference had sabotaged any shred of decency in the human race except in one man….Noah. He was childless when God gave him notice about his intention to flood the world of that time and wipe out all who were acting contrary to any form of morality. Made in God’s image, we have a natural inbuilt sense of right and wrong, and a conscience (that small internal voice that alerts you that you are doing something wrong).

So if you read the Bible, you will see THREE classes of people that God will deal with at the end. The “righteous“…..the “unrighteous” and the “wicked”. This is why we see that God will resurrect both “the righteous and the unrighteous” because those who acted in an unrighteous way through ignorance…(those who had no law of God to obey in their geographical location, or in their national religion)…..justice demands that these humans will have an opportunity to make an informed choice as to whether they will obey God or not.

The “righteous“ will have already demonstrated that their natural inclination was to do good, but the “unrighteous“ did not possess such a strong moral compass. But given the opportunity to learn about what God requires, these had the potential to bring their lives into harmony with God’s requirements. Remember that God desires “ALL to come to repentance”. He has no desire to destroy anyone.

The “wicked” OTOH are incorrigible…..they are the ones who have no moral compass at all, and who condemn themselves by demonstrating no propensity for repentance in any way. Only the wicked will see the LOF.….a place reserved for the devil and his minions…..a place of everlasting destruction. What is thrown into the LOF, will never be seen or thought about again. No resurrection is possible for those ones.

This is what I see many here are missing….these are important aspects of God’s personality that will see to it that everyone will have the opportunity to bring their thinking and conduct into line with God’s. Only the stubborn “goats” will be eliminated at the judgment….they go straight into the LOF. Gone forever.

Once Christ has established his Kingdom, then “the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous” can take place during his 1000 year reign. Those who choose wisely will make it to the end of that period when a final test will separate people again. The devil will be let loose to try his tricks on sinless people, but again he will succeed as he did with Adam and his wife. These will then be eliminated, and only the righteous will enjoy the life God purposed for them from the beginning.

It has been a process of elimination, necessary for God’s future plans to go ahead unimpeded by those who want to do things their own way.

Obedience is all God has ever asked of us…..it is all he ever will ask in the future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If we can back up a little and approach this topic just with Scripture, and not just the Scripture that appears to prop up our beliefs, we can get God’s view of things.

So how does God view mankind after the fall? They are now flawed, they have lost the perfection of their original creation and are now prone to sin. Was it their fault that Adam threw them under the bus? Doesn’t God know that we fight sin every day of our lives? But if we back up a little further, how does mankind who have never known God, “sin” if they have no idea what sin is? Paul said that without the law outlining what sin was to God, we would never have known what it was to “sin”.

What does God want as far as sinful humanity goes?
2 Pet 3:9…
”The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (NASB)

Does this paint a picture of a God who can’t wait to destroy those who break his laws? What if they never had his laws to begin with? How can he judge them adversely when he desires “ALL to come to repentance”?
This is a loving God, not a vindictive one. Psalm 103:14 says that God “remembers we are dust”.

So from the time that humans had been given God’s laws, they became subject to them. For Adam, he had just one command to obey, and satan lured him into taking sides with the wife whom he had already influenced. So no excuses there. Evicted and cast outside, God allowed the human race to do as he told them in Genesis…to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”….but they did not take God’s law with them because he had not given them any. That resulted in the “days of Noah” becoming a horrible time to be alive when demonic interference had sabotaged any shred of decency in the human race except in one man….Noah. He was childless when God gave him notice about his intention to flood the world of that time and wipe out all who were acting contrary to any form of morality. Made in God’s image, we have a natural inbuilt sense of right and wrong, and a conscience (that small internal voice that alerts you that you are doing something wrong).

So if you read the Bible, you will see THREE classes of people that God will deal with at the end. The “righteous“…..the “unrighteous” and the “wicked”. This is why we see that God will resurrect both “the righteous and the unrighteous” because those who acted in an unrighteous way through ignorance…(those who had no law of God to obey in their geographical location, or in their national religion)…..justice demands that these humans will have an opportunity to make an informed choice as to whether they will obey God or not.

The “righteous“ will have already demonstrated that their natural inclination was to do good, but the “unrighteous“ did not possess such a strong moral compass. But given the opportunity to learn about what God requires, these had the potential to bring their lives into harmony with God’s requirements. Remember that God desires “ALL to come to repentance”. He has no desire to destroy anyone.

The “wicked” OTOH are incorrigible…..they are the ones who have no moral compass at all, and who condemn themselves by demonstrating no propensity for repentance in any way. Only the wicked will see the LOF.….a place reserved for the devil and his minions…..a place of everlasting destruction. What is thrown into the LOF, will never be seen or thought about again. No resurrection is possible for those ones.

This is what I see many here are missing….these are important aspects of God’s personality that will see to it that everyone will have the opportunity to bring their thinking and conduct into line with God’s. Only the stubborn “goats” will be eliminated at the judgment….they go straight into the LOF. Gone forever.

Once Christ has established his Kingdom, then “the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous” can take place during his 1000 year reign. Those who choose wisely will make it to the end of that period when a final test will separate people again. The devil will be let loose to try his tricks on sinless people, but again he will succeed as he did with Adam and his wife. These will then be eliminated, and only the righteous will enjoy the life God purposed for them from the beginning.

It has been a process of elimination, necessary for God’s future plans to go ahead unimpeded by those who want to do things their own way.

Obedience is all God has ever asked of us…..it is all he ever will ask in the future.

What you are saying is not taught anywhere in scripture. Let's allow Jesus to define the classes of people that He will deal with when He comes to judge the world.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jesus divided people into TWO classes or groups, not three. Everyone is either with Him or against Him. The sheep represent all believers because we know all believers are His sheep (John 10). They represent those who are with Jesus. The goats represent those who are against Jesus. Those whose names are not written in the book of life.

This...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

...is the same as this...

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What you are saying is not taught anywhere in scripture. Let's allow Jesus to define the classes of people that He will deal with when He comes to judge the world.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

You forget about the people who existed before Jesus…and those who existed before Abraham, the father of the Israelites to whom God’s law was first given. He did not give his law to any other nation. What about those people?

So ignorance of the law, which was not binding on those nations, cannot condemn them. If God had wanted them under his laws, he would have included them….he did not.

It was all about Israel at first, and any gentile who wanted to worship Yahweh had to convert to Judaism and become a Jew under Jewish law….a proselyte.
When Christ came, his followers were seen as a sect of Judaism…not till later did they divide off when Jewish hostility forced them out of the Temple and into finding new meeting places. The presence of unconverted gentiles was abhorrent to them.

Jesus divided people into TWO classes or groups, not three. Everyone is either with Him or against Him. The sheep represent all believers because we know all believers are His sheep (John 10). They represent those who are with Jesus. The goats represent those who are against Jesus. Those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Again we are talking about a post Jesus period. What about those who existed in the distant past who had no Jesus or Moses to teach them God’s ways?

The interesting thing about “the sheep and the goats” is that both were clean animals under God’s law…both could be used for food and sacrifice…so what did Jesus mean when he said he would separate them? Why not call them “sheep and pigs” to demonstrate their unclean condition in his sight?
What makes a person a “goat”?

The goats are those who pretend to be Christians but who fail to live up to the label. They take the easy road with the wide gate because it suits them to do so. Little is sacrificed by them when God sacrificed so much for everyone. By their failure to obey the teachings of the Christ….getting involved in the corrupt politics of their nations, and supporting the resulting bloodshed of military conflicts that result…and by watering down God’s moral standards, they accept what God forbids. And if they subscribe to the “church” systems of Christendom and are divided off from one another in their church buildings and even in their cemeteries…..is that an indication that God’s uniting spirit is with them? Or is their division so serious that they will never agree on anything? (1 Cor 1:10)

This...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

...is the same as this...

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is a place of no return. The goats are alive in this period Daniel foretold as “the time of the end”….the time when Jesus would return and judge the living. Those found to be goats are eliminated from existence….they have had sufficient time to make the hard decisions, like the people of Noah’s day, as Jesus connected the two periods. (Matt 24:37-39)

After the goats are dispatched, and Kingdom rule is established over the earth, then Jesus can bring back the dead (who have paid sins wages), and are now ransomed out of their graves by Christ’s sacrifice, and given their first opportunity to make a decision about God, and learn what he has done to rescue them from the grave.

“The book of life” is God’s book, and if our names are in it, we have a wonderful hope for the future…..but what does that future look like? Can you tell me?
What is God going to do with the human race now that he has saved the obedient ones among them?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You forget about the people who existed before Jesus…and those who existed before Abraham, the father of the Israelites to whom God’s law was first given. He did not give his law to any other nation. What about those people?

Don't tell me I'm forgetting something when you don't even know me. I'm not forgetting anything. Those people are judged based on what they knew. There is no other name ever by which anyone in history can be saved except by the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12, John 14:6). There is no forgiveness of sins apart from the blood of Jesus. So, His blood covers the sins of those who looked forward to Him and those who believed in God and believed in the teachings of Moses. He said those who believed Moses would also believe in Him (John 5:46).

So, again, all people are in two groups. With Jesus and against Jesus. Saved and lost. Righteous and wicked. Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats.

Look at Luke 17:26-37. When Jesus comes all people will either be taken up to Him and rescued like Noah and Lot and their families or they will be left behind and destroyed like those outside the ark and left behind in Sodom. There's no in between. No third group.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The lake of fire is a place of no return. The goats are alive in this period Daniel foretold as “the time of the end”….the time when Jesus would return and judge the living. Those found to be goats are eliminated from existence….they have had sufficient time to make the hard decisions, like the people of Noah’s day, as Jesus connected the two periods. (Matt 24:37-39)

What other scripture can you point to that would support the idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire at two entirely different times/events instead of all at the same time/event?

After the goats are dispatched, and Kingdom rule is established over the earth, then Jesus can bring back the dead (who have paid sins wages), and are now ransomed out of their graves by Christ’s sacrifice, and given their first opportunity to make a decision about God, and learn what he has done to rescue them from the grave.

What? Where is this taught in scripture? Where does scripture teach that any of the dead will receive a second chance at salvation? Nowhere. Instead, it teaches that people look forward to judgment after death (Hebrews 9:27), implying no second chances. Now is the time and the day of salvation!

2 Corinthians 6:1 God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Don't tell me I'm forgetting something when you don't even know me. I'm not forgetting anything. Those people are judged based on what they knew. There is no other name ever by which anyone in history can be saved except by the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12, John 14:6). There is no forgiveness of sins apart from the blood of Jesus. So, His blood covers the sins of those who looked forward to Him and those who believed in God and believed in the teachings of Moses. He said those who believed Moses would also believe in Him (John 5:46).

What about those who lived before Moses? And what about the Jews who lived before Jesus came? God left them to their errors for about 300 years till Jesus came.
You are leaving a whole bunch of people out of contention for salvation here…

So, again, all people are in two groups. With Jesus and against Jesus. Saved and lost. Righteous and wicked.

That is “righteous” and “unrighteous”…the unrighteous are not necessarily “wicked”. (Irreformable)
The Pharisees were consigned to “Gehenna”….which is erroneously translated as “hell”. Gehenna is the lake of fire. The Pharisees will not be resurrected because Gehenna is eternal death.

Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats.

Ues in this judgment period…that’s all there are.

Look at Luke 17:26-37. When Jesus comes all people will either be taken up to Him and rescued like Noah and Lot and their families or they will be left behind and destroyed like those outside the ark and left behind in Sodom. There's no in between. No third group.

Not all who are Christians are going to heaven…only Christ’s elect will have that privilege. They are chosen for a specific role in the kingdom (Rev 20:6) and will bring redeemed humanity back into reconciliation with God so that the final test, at the end of the 1000 years when satan is released, the defectors will forfeit their lives.

The lake of fire remains as the receptacle for any, who in future seek to abuse their free will. Hades is destroyed along with death, but the lake of fire is always there. There is nothing to indicate that it is taken away.
“Death and hades” are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:13-14) so it is obvious that hades is not “hell”.
Rev 20 is about time of the end and what will take place during the thousand years when satan is confined to his prison.

 

[Aunty Jane]

2 Corinthians 6:1 God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

At what time was that recorded? To whom was it written? It was to Christians in the first century.
Any who have knowledge of Jesus Christ and his message of salvation are judged by him as to how they respond to his message. (Matt 10:11-14) People in this time period will have no excuse. Like Judaism, Christianity was at first localized to one people, in one nation…..but when Christ came and offered his life, Christianity was to spread out into “the entire inhabited earth”…..there would be no excuses for ignorance after that. (Matt 24:14) Who today have not heard the Christian message? Who will be able to say to the judge….“no one told me I had choices”?

But before that when people had no knowledge of Christ and his sacrifice, why would God not give them a second chance….does he not want “all to receive salvation”? Is that justice?……to be convicted of a crime you did not commit except in ignorance. Those who sinned in ignorance way before God gave his law cannot be convicted and sentenced without first being given opportunity to change their ways. Repentance is all God requires. He has no need to take life unless someone has committed a crime…..if there was no law, there was no crime. Is God unjust?

The “unrighteous” are raised to “judgment” not “condemnation” unless they fail to repent.
Look up the meaning of those words in Greek. No one is condemned unless their conduct warrants it. You cannot break a law that does not exist.

People do get second chances…..look at Manasseh…..and King David. Both deserved the death penalty for their crimes, but God spared their lives and forgave them because they repented.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What about those who lived before Moses? And what about the Jews who lived before Jesus came? God left them to their errors for about 300 years till Jesus came.
You are leaving a whole bunch of people out of contention for salvation here…

No, I'm not. You're not reading what I'm saying very carefully. No matter what I say you'll just say "what about this and what about that". I'm saying that all people will be judged based on what they know. Those people you're talking about will be judged by the standard that Paul wrote about in Romans 1:18-2:16.

The idea of a second chance at salvation after death is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

Not all who are Christians are going to heaven…only Christ’s elect will have that privilege.

What? Where do you come up with this stuff? All Christians are chosen/elect and go to heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At what time was that recorded? To whom was it written? It was to Christians in the first century.
Any who have knowledge of Jesus Christ and his message of salvation are judged by him as to how they respond to his message. (Matt 10:11-14) People in this time period will have no excuse.

People in Old Testament times had no excuse for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him because He made Himself plain to everyone by what He had made (see Romans 1:18-21), so they will be judged by that standard.

Like Judaism, Christianity was at first localized to one people, in one nation…..but when Christ came and offered his life, Christianity was to spread out into “the entire inhabited earth”…..there would be no excuses for ignorance after that. (Matt 24:14) Who today have not heard the Christian message? Who will be able to say to the judge….“no one told me I had choices”?

But before that when people had no knowledge of Christ and his sacrifice, why would God not give them a second chance….does he not want “all to receive salvation”? Is that justice?……to be convicted of a crime you did not commit except in ignorance. Those who sinned in ignorance way before God gave his law cannot be convicted and sentenced without first being given opportunity to change their ways. Repentance is all God requires. He has no need to take life unless someone has committed a crime…..if there was no law, there was no crime. Is God unjust?

Have you never read Romans 1 and 2? Please read it so you can learn on what basis they will be judged. No second chances. The unsaved dead are resurrected unto "damnation" (John 5:28-29) and to "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

The “unrighteous” are raised to “judgment” not “condemnation” unless they fail to repent.
Look up the meaning of those words in Greek. No one is condemned unless their conduct warrants it. You cannot break a law that does not exist.

What are you talking about? Give me scripture references that you're basing your comments on.

People do get second chances…..look at Manasseh…..and King David. Both deserved the death penalty for their crimes, but God spared their lives and forgave them because they repented.

Of course, but that's when they were alive. People get lots of chances while they are alive. No more chances after death. After death, one's fate is sealed until it is revealed at the judgement (Hebrews 9:27).

 

[jeffweeder]

Nah... Paul was clear what he said in the Acts 24:15 verse that he had a HOPE TOWARD GOD that there would also be a resurrection of the "unjust", which was a POSITIVE HOPE that at least some of them might be saved.

Paul was on trial - for the resurrection of the dead. v21.

14 But I confess this to you, that according to the Way, which they call a [divisive and heretical] sect, I do worship and serve the God of our fathers, [confidently] believing everything that is in accordance with the Law [of Moses] and that is written in the Prophets;

15 having [the same] hope in God which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of [the dead], both of the righteous and of the wicked.

Both Jesus and Paul teach the resurrection occurring at his coming with all the Angels, where the righteous are put on his right and the unrighteous on his left, Matt 25 / Glorified or eternally sentenced. 2Thess 1.

But what you did was your vain... attempt to post counter-Scripture, that in your simple mind you think means Paul had a vain HOPE that the "unjust" would DIE, DIE, DIE and be PUNISHED like in some NAZI DEATH CAMP.

No, Paul recognized that the truly unrepentant will perish in the lake of fire. But when one has a HOPE TOWARD GOD, like Paul said, that the "unjust" would be raised also, that was about a hope towards the idea of REPENTANCE. So where... is your CHRISTIAN CHARITY (love) in hope that some of the "unjust" might be saved in Christ after His future return? Where is it; I see NO COMPASSION OR HOPE IN YOU AT ALL ABOUT THIS. Are you greater than GOD, with thinking HIS power to forgive is limited???

Oh dear me. I did post act 17 as well.

. 30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

32 Now when they heard [the term] resurrection from the dead, some mocked and sneered; but others said, “We will hear from you again about this matter.”

32 Now when they heard [the term] resurrection from the dead, some mocked and sneered; but others said, “We will hear from you again about this matter.”



They shared the HOPE the dead would be raised and judged in RIGHTEOUSNESS.


If Paul had hope in a separate resurrection for the unjust, then why did he teach the unjust being eternally judged on the same day as our resurrection to Glorification?

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of [c]everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nah... Paul was clear what he said in the Acts 24:15 verse that he had a HOPE TOWARD GOD that there would also be a resurrection of the "unjust", which was a POSITIVE HOPE that at least some of them might be saved.

Good grief. I guess these scriptures are not in your Bible.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Scripture: The unjust will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting contempt" and "to be condemned".

Davy: No, the unjust will not be resurrected to shame, everlasting contempt and condemnation. They will instead get more chances to repent despite having plenty of chances to repent while they were alive.