ANOTHER FACTOR THAT PROVES AMIL FALSE, PAUL WISHED FOR A RESURRECTION OF THE UNJUST ALSO

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do understand that there are two different resurrections spoken about in the Scriptures?

Please don't ask me dumb questions. Of course I know that, but I wonder if you understand what the two resurrections you have in mind are? Probably not.

Both Jesus and Paul refer to those who are resurrected “first”……if there is a “first resurrection”, then logically another will follow. (1 Thess 4:16; Rev 20:6)

Oops. You missed something very important here. Jesus's resurrection is the first resurrection. We need to accept what scripture teaches is the first resurrection and then interpret Revelation 20 accordingly.

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection. It's a major mistake to try to make anything else the first resurrection because that forces you to contradict other scripture. What you think is the first resurrection is actually the second resurrection in the order of resurrections, not the first.

So, what about having part in the first resurrection you may ask? Since the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection then it has to do with having part in His resurrection. How does someone have part in His resurrection? Like this...

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Look at this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Compare what it says there with what John wrote earlier in the book here:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

According to John in Rev 1:5-6, Jesus was already reigning at the time he wrote the book and believers were already made priests at that time. And it refers to Jesus as being "the first begotten of the dead", which is a reference to the fact that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23), making His resurrection the first resurrection. This passage shows that those who belong to Christ have been made kings and priests unto God. With all of this in mind, you should see that Revelation 20:6 speaks of a current reality.

The “chosen ones” (“firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” Rev 14:1, 4) who are ”bought from the earth” are “resurrected first” and will be reigning with Christ in his Kingdom.….their subjects will be on earth (Rev 21:2-4)…so what is the purpose of the kingdom and his rule over redeemed mankind for 1000 years?
What will the kingdom do for the redeemed humans?

Nope. They are located in heaven and have been spiritually redeemed from the earth. Their souls are there. The 144,000 is a symbolic reference to the church and is not meant to be taken literally.

Jesus said the hour (singular) is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). You contradict Jesus by having mass bodily resurrections at multiple different hours.

Tell me what the the end result will be for humanity? How can we get back what we lost if we have no idea what we lost in the first place?

What are you even talking about? Can't you speak plainly?

The end result for believers will be bodily immortality for eternity in the new heavens and new earth. The end results for unbelievers is the lake of fire. Very simple. You turn simple things into convoluted things for no reason.

What is “hell” here? Please tell me what words are translated as “hell” in the Bible, and what Jewish writer would ever translate a word that was not even in their vocabulary?….never even hinted about in their scripture.

What did Jews understand (Hebrew) “Sheol” to mean?
What about (Greek) “hades”…. is that hell?
How about (Greek) “Gehenna”….or “the lake of fire”? What would these words have meant to a scripture-educated Jew of the day?
Certainly nothing like what came out of Roman Catholicism.
What did Jesus teach, since he was also a Jew…..as all the Bible writers were Jewish….and he only used Jewish Scripture.

Again, you are turning something simple into something convoluted. That's what people do when they are brainwashed by the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. By the way, I"m not Catholic, so that reference means nothing to me.

In Luke 16:19-31, hell/Hades is a place where the souls and spirits of dead unbelievers like the rich man go and Abraham's bosom was the place where believers like Abraham and beggar Lazarus went before they were taken to paradise (the third heaven) after Christ's death (Luke 23:43-46). Very simple. But, you obviously can't accept how simple these things actually are.

No, not “hell”….. he was said to be in “hades”

LOL. Same thing. Good grief.

…so what did that word mean to a first century Jew as opposed to a Roman Catholic centuries later?

Hello? I'm not a Roman Catholic, so please stop referencing them since my beliefs have nothing to do with Catholicism.

It is the Greek equivalent of “Sheol” in the OT….so “hades” has the same meaning as “Sheol”. According to the Jewish Tanakh, Sheol is translated as “the grave”….nothing more sinister than that. No one is conscious in Sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Nonsense. What do you think, that Jesus was trying to fool people by indicating that the rich man was conscious in hell/Hades? I will take His word over yours every time. He would not portray someone as being conscious in hell/Hades if people there are not actually conscious.

So, you believe in soul sleep then. Tell me, is God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? When answering, keep in mind that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mark 12:26-27).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no “hell” in that parable either,

There sure is. It's also called "Hades" and it's a place of torment for unbelievers, according to Jesus. You do believe that Jesus knew what He was talking about, right?

because it is an illustration of something that the players in that parable experienced. The rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the spiritually malnourished common people whom the Pharisees despised and treated like dirt. Their deaths were a change of circumstance….they traded places….what once belonged to the Jewish leaders (a position of favor with God which was suggested by the fact that they were in Abraham’s bosom), the beggar who represented the lowly sinners to whom Jesus preached, (as he said he was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.) As these “lost sheep” responded to Jesus as Messiah, they now attained a position of favor with God…..and the rich man who lost it was in torment over it.

Taken literally this parable makes no sense.

It's not a parable because parables don't involve real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. And it makes perfect sense to take it literally in terms of believing that the people referenced in it are real people (Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the rich man and his five brothers) and the places were real places (Abraham's bosom, hell/Hades). The torment is described figuratively since it's difficult to describe spiritual torment literally in a way that can be understood. But, there's no reason whatsoever to not take it literally otherwise.

Again you are giving scripture a meaning it never had….

No, I'm not. All you have to offer are false accusations and nothing more.

Paul’s address in 1 Thess 5:23 was to the congregation as a whole, not to any individuals

LOL. No. Not even close. The congregation as a whole does not have a body, soul and spirit. Give me a break. You clearly will go to any length to explain away any scripture.

…..therefore their collective “body, soul and spirit” meant something very different to the idea of a triune composition in man.

Their collective "body, soul and spirit"? What does that even mean? Explain that to me in detail.

I personally use a variety of Bible translations especially when speaking to those who believe that our Bible is mistranslated…..I have studied many Bibles to check their integrity against the original languages and found the NWT to convey the truth, where others inject their own ideas into the translation to support a favored doctrine.

LOL. As if the NWT doesn't do that. Okay then.

I am happy to use any translation as long as I have a reliable Concordance that shows the original use of the words and how they are translated in other Scripture.

Yes, that's helpful. The original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts were inspired by God, but not the English translations. I think the translators of most English translations are/were godly people who try their best to accurately translated the original text, but they are not fallible. They made mistakes here and there. We're fortunate in this day and age to have Hebrew and Greek resources available at our fingertips to allow us to see the meanings of the original words for ourselves and decide for ourselves how they should be translated in the relatively few cases where the English translations don't seem to agree, especially.

I don’t just read Scripture, I study it carefully.

So do I. VERY carefully.

Original language word studies open up a whole new understanding of God’s word.

Yep. And keeping things in context and making sure that your interpretation of one verse or passage doesn't contradict any other verse or passage in scripture is very important as well.

Our difference in opinion is not because you study scripture more carefully than I do, so let's not make this a competition about who studies scripture more carefully. No matter how much we study, it means nothing without the aid of spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). Agree?

You are leaving out the majority of those who have lived and died in past ages….none of whom knew the true God or his son. God allows for personal decisions and responds to them….just as he did in the garden.

Did you not read anything I said? Romans 1:18-2:16 doesn't leave anyone out. No one has any excuse for not at least glorifying God and thanking Him and for not repenting of their sins because God has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made (Romans 1:18-21). What is hard for you to understand about this?

Highly debatable by whom?

Goodness gracious. Are you somehow not aware of how much the book has been debated over the years? Hello?

It is not unclear at all for those who know the truth…..the Bible is only complicated for people who want it to say what it doesn’t….

If it's so clear then why is it written with symbolic text instead of literal, straightforward text? Clearly, it's not meant to just be read literally and straightforwardly as you seem to think. We should use what is taught in more clear, straightforward text to help understand what Revelation 20 is all about. Such as other scripture which talks about the timing of Christ reigning (since His resurrection), the timing of His people being priests (since His resurrection), what the first resurrection is (Christ's resurrection), when the dead are resurrected (when the hour arrives that Jesus said would come and all the dead would be resurrected at that time) and when people are judged (all at the same time at His second coming at the end of the age).

As for the Bible being complicated, read your own posts. You make things way more complicated than they are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was going to ask you the same question.

You were going to ask me "What is the point of them being "judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign" if they just end up being destroyed, anyway?". Why? That's not even what I believe.

The 2nd resurrection the Bible speaks of (not the 1st), is about teaching these “unrighteous” ones, God’s ways w/o the Satanic influences around today (Satan will be abyssed).

Where is that taught in scripture? Give me less of your opinions and more scripture. Without scripture, your opinions mean nothing to me.

Truth will be available everywhere, and these unrighteous ones will be given time to make a choice:

They were already given time to make a choice. Today is the day of salvation and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2). At death, people's fates are sealed and they then look forward to judgment (Hebrews 9:27) when they either inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world in the new heavens and new earth or they are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41), which is also known as the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) and is "the second death" (Rev 20:14).

the best would be to learn of & accept Jesus’ sacrifice and God’s other standards for gaining life. The other would be to persist in their own selfish ways… that way, though, would lead to “everlasting contempt,” resulting in their destruction.

Where is this taught in scripture? Why does Daniel 12:2 say that they are resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt" if they instead get a chance to repent and avoid that fate? Nowhere does scripture teach what you are saying.

I’m sure many will learn meekness , & choose life. But God reads the heart; during the Final Test, they won’t be able to fool Him.

The Final Test? Where is that referenced in scripture?

 

[TheHC]

Scripture repeatedly teaches that [hell] is where unbelievers go when they die.

I’m sorry, my cousin, but Christendom has misled you.

The Scriptures repeatedly teach that good and bad go there at death!
Ecclesiastes 9:10 says, “Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.” (This was written for everyone reading it, not just bad people.)

(“Sheol” is the Hebrew word used here in Ecclesiastes 9:10. Its Greek counterpart is “Hades”. And these two words are quite often translated “hell” or “grave” in English Bibles.)

Read Genesis 37:35, Douay-Rheims.…
“And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: “I will go down to my son into hell, mourning”. And whilst he continued weeping,”

Jacob, thinking Joseph was dead, said that Joseph was in hell, and that he too was going to hell when he died.

King David wrote Psalm 16:10, and these words are applied to Jesus, at His death.
Psalm 16:10, King James Version…
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

And Jesus wasn’t ‘left’ there… three days later, He was resurrected.

Even Job prayed to go to hell, to escape his suffering. - Job 14:13.

Please look up these verses on BibleHub.com. You’ll see many different translations, and the many different ways that “Sheol” (Heb.), “Hades” (Gr.), and “hell” or “grave” (English) have been rendered.

It just muddies the waters, causing confusion. And serves to reinforce Christendom’s “Hell” doctrine.

 

[TheHC]

The Final Test? Where is that referenced in scripture?

I’m sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referencing the events at the end of Christ’s thousand-year reign, found at Revelation 20:7-10

I’ll address more of your post, later.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m sorry, my cousin, but Christendom has misled you.

Your cousin? What does that mean? Your false religion has misled you.

The Scriptures repeatedly teach that good and bad go there at death!
Ecclesiastes 9:10 says, “Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.” (This was written for everyone reading it, not just bad people.)

In terms of what Jesus was referring to in Luke 16:19-31, He clearly was referring to a place that was separate from the place where the souls and spirits of believers were (Abraham's bosom). That place is called hell or Hades. Why deny this? Clearly, the rich man was not in the same place as Abraham and the beggar Lazarus. It says the rich man saw Abraham far away and Abraham said to the rich man: "between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.".

You act like believers and unbelievers go to the exact same place after death even though Jesus clearly taught otherwise. Why? Do you not trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about and understood verses like Ecclesiastes 9:10 better than any of us do?

(“Sheol” is the Hebrew word used here in Ecclesiastes 9:10. Its Greek counterpart is “Hades”. And these two words are quite often translated “hell” or “grave” in English Bibles.)

Yes, but Jesus made it clear that only unbelievers are in Hades/hell now while believers were in Abraham's bosom at that time and are now in paradise (the third heaven).

Read Genesis 37:35, Douay-Rheims.…
“And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: “I will go down to my son into hell, mourning”. And whilst he continued weeping,”

Jacob, thinking Joseph was dead, said that Joseph was in hell, and that he too was going to hell when he died.

You said yourself that the word can also mean "grave" and that's what it means in that verse rather than hell. He was saying he would continue to mourn for his son Joseph until he was also dead and his body was buried in the grave. You are not differentiating between the place where bodies go and the places where the souls and spirits of the dead go when people physically die and that's why you are misinterpreting all these verses. It doesn't help that you just go by what you are taught in your religion instead of thinking for yourself

King David wrote Psalm 16:10, and these words are applied to Jesus, at His death.
Psalm 16:10, King James Version…
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

And Jesus wasn’t ‘left’ there… three days later, He was resurrected.

No, no, no. You are badly misinterpreting that verse. Horribly. Jesus never went to Hades. That's total nonsense. Why would He go to the place where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go?

Here is a better translation of that verse:

Psalm 16:10 (NASB): For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; you will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

That verse is quoted here:

Acts 2:27 (NASB): For You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

We can see here that what the verse is saying is that Jesus's soul would not be taken and abandoned to Hades. It's not saying His soul would be taken to Hades/hell for 3 days, but not left there. No, it's saying His soul would not be taken there at all. Instead, He went to paradise, which is the third heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4).

Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise and He committed His spirit to the Father before He died. Where is the Father? In paradise.

Even Job prayed to go to hell, to escape his suffering. - Job 14:13.

LOL. Total nonsense. That is talking about physically dying and being buried in the grave. You continue to not differentiate between the place where bodies go and the places where the souls and spirits of people go.

Please look up these verses on BibleHub.com. You’ll see many different translations, and the many different ways that “Sheol” (Heb.), “Hades” (Gr.), and “hell” or “grave” (English) have been rendered.

LOL. Do you think I'm new to this? I use Biblegateway.com and always look at several different translations. The fact of the matter is that the same words in the old languages can refer to both the place where bodies go after death and the places where the spirits and souls of the dead go after death. You are not properly differentiating between the body and the soul/spirit.

It just muddies the waters, causing confusion. And serves to reinforce Christendom’s “Hell” doctrine.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Acting as if people like Jacob and Job thought they were going to hell? LOL. Ridiculous nonsense. No, they knew their bodies would be in the grave when they died. But, their souls and spirits went to the place called Abraham's bosom and now they are in paradise (the third heaven).