Answering Predestination "Proof" Texts

[Preacher4Truth]

You are robbing God of his glory in salvation, and giving it to yourself.

It's remarkable that these see themselves as a person who "so loved God!"

While lost.

They had this love for God while dead in sins (yet God says they were hostile toward Him, and at enmity with him, which doesn't matter, they're in charge, so scratch these texts; Romans 8:7; Romans 8:8; Colossians 1:21) and, because of their great love for God, not being "robots" or being "forced" (yet having full ability to love God when Scripture denies such in a lost state) God rewarded them with eternal life because he saw they loved him.

What a beautiful story of their love they've painted! Doing things God says lost man cannot do! What power they have to do things God says are impossible!

...and they cannot see the self-righteous false gospel in that unbiblical disaster?

Unbelievable!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

All your explaining is your personal religion.

How ironic. This is exactly your position as what you preach into Romans 8 is not there in the text.

Your errant gospel is that God chose you because you loved him, destroying grace and making your gospel meritorious.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are trying to sell Fords on the merits of Rolls Royce. Bait and switch............

Dave, ridicule of another's argument is no substitute for factual criticism of it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well said, especially the part about "predestination" taking place only AFTER His foreknowledge of those who would accept His gift.

Foreknowledge in the Greek is a verb, meaning He did something in fore knowing them. To appoint, fore-ordain is what it means. You are conflating His foreknowledge with His omniscience.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I see the crux of the issue: Calvinists view God as a Dictator rather than the Gentleman He is. All through the OT and NT, more than anything, we find the exercise of faith encouraged, practiced, and rewarded.

Did not the Zidonian widow exercise her faith in Elijah while relying on nothing but his promise of deliverance? Did not Naaman?
Did not the Syro-Phoenician woman?
Did not the paralyzed man lowered through the roof to Jesus?
I'm even willing to believe the demoniac of Gadara knew Jesus was his only hope for deliverance, and his faith - rendered wholly inaudible by his demonic slavemasters - was heard loud and clear by my Savior.

Exercising faith is the equivalent of opening of the door upon which Jesus is knocking which allows Him entrance and it adds not a single nano-particle of weight or a micron of dimension to God's grace.

God is God, not a gentleman.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Would a woman hate the man who says he loves her, can't live without her, and asks to marry her...and then threatens to torment her unspeakably if she refuses?

Then we shouldn't blame anyone for hating the god of Calvinism, of which Christianity is in absolutely no danger of worshiping above because he's already busy running things down here.

God can, and does live without many.

 

[SovereignGrace]

News flash: the Second Person in the Godhead Who told us to "hate" our loved ones or else we can't be His disciple is the exact same Person in the Godhead in the OT Who said He "hated" Esau, so yeah, I think it's MORE than appropriate to let the same Person tell us what He means by "hate": to "prefer less".

If hate doesn’t mean hate, then love doesn’t mean love.

 

[SovereignGrace]

For whom He foreknew...

προγινώσκω (proginōskō)

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

Seeing that it is a verb, it means God actually did something in foreknowing them.

 

[brakelite]

If hate doesn’t mean hate, then love doesn’t mean love.

Hate is not the opposite of love. Selfishness is.
And just as we grow in grace, so also do we grow in love. The claim that God chooses us because we love Him is nonsense. It was while we were yet sinners...selfish rebellious pleasure seeking and Godless...that Christ dies for us. Yes, He died for us too, not only Calvinists.
No-one is saying here that we didn't come to repentance without God's help and encouragement. No-one here believes tha they now love God in their own strength, obey His commandments without the Spirit of God's enabling power. But the first commandment is thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your mind, all your strength, and all your heart. Love must be voluntary. God cannot impose upon anyone the will to love Him because the moment He does that, it ceases to be love. We must choose to love. Being compelled to love is an impossibility, even for God to accomplish. Compulsory love is an oxymoron.
Now of course we did not love God when we first acknowledged our sin and need of a Saviour. And such acknowledgement came only at the conviction of the holy Spirit working upon our hearts and minds...but unless you, DaveL, preacher, and others have at some time yourselves chosen to love God...decided to live for Him and place Christ first in all things...then you do not in all reality, love Him. I do not pretend to know what it is that you claim to have in this regard, but whatever it is, it aint love. No more so than your wife forced you to the altar at the end of a shotgun and threatened to remove your head unless you pronounced your unending love for her. Would that really be love? And if she decided to leave you, what would be your reaction? Would you love for her mean that you tie her to the bed and lock her in the room...or give her the choice and the freedom to leave? Which one is the true expression of love?

Is God truly a God of love and restrained power, or a God of power and restrained love?

 

[Dave L]

Dave, ridicule of another's argument is no substitute for factual criticism of it.

It's an analogy that holds true. You are pulling a bait and switch trying to sell one thing on the merits of another.

 

[Phoneman777]

For whom He foreknew...

προγινώσκω (proginōskō)

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

Seeing that it is a verb, it means God actually did something in foreknowing them.

The lexicons I looked at limit the interpretation of the Greek to "foreknow", and do not extend it to mean "predestinate".

If you are correct, then we should be able to re-write it as:

"For whom he did predestinate, he also did predestinate" which re-write sound's weird, don't you agree?

 

[Phoneman777]

It's an analogy that holds true. You are pulling a bait and switch trying to sell one thing on the merits of another.

And you do so because you lack the ability of intellectual criticism in this area.

 

[Phoneman777]

If hate doesn’t mean hate, then love doesn’t mean love.

So, I guess we better get busy hating our loved ones if we want to get to heaven, like Jesus said we need to?

 

[Dave L]

And you do so because you lack the ability of intellectual criticism in this area.

Jesus often used illustrations in the same way as I do, in this case.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, I guess we better get busy hating our loved ones if we want to get to heaven, like Jesus said we need to?

No. But context determines what hate means.

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”[Matthew 6:24]

Hate is the same Greek word(miseo) used also in Luke 14:26. Are we to hate Satan or love him less?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The lexicons I looked at limit the interpretation of the Greek to "foreknow", and do not extend it to mean "predestinate".

If you are correct, then we should be able to re-write it as:

"For whom he did predestinate, he also did predestinate" which re-write sound's weird, don't you agree?

Foreknew is foreknew, predestinate is predestined. He foreknew them, meaning He did something(chose/elected them) in foreknowing them.

 

[Phoneman777]

God is God, not a gentleman.

God is not gentle? If you read how God dealt with the apostate kings of OT Israel? He is so gentle that after Ahab had married a Baal worshiper and done more evil than any other king before him, killed many prophets of the Lord, made treaties against God's will, took the possessions of a murdered man, and just kept on doing evil toward God and His prophets...but when Ahab was sorry at the news his entire lineage would be wiped out - WORTHLESS SORROW THAT WAS NOT UNTO REPENTANCE - God even told the prophet, "See how Ahab is sorry? I'll not punish his family while he's yet alive." Yes, he's MORE than a Gentleman.

 

[Phoneman777]

No. But context determines what hate means.

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”[Matthew 6:24]

Hate is the same Greek word(miseo) used also in Luke 14:26. Are we to hate Satan or love him less?

So, you agree that Jesus' command to "hate" means "love less", but when Scripture says God "loved Jacob and hated Esau" we can't interpret that the same way? that He "loved less Esau"?

 

[Phoneman777]

Foreknew is foreknew, predestinate is predestined. He foreknew them, meaning He did something(chose/elected them) in foreknowing them.

No, foreknew doesn't mean He did anything except exactly what it means: know them before they existed. To insist that He did something with that knowledge - designate, set aside, slate, etc. is purely subjective on the part of those who insist that unless you can point to the verse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you agree that Jesus' command to "hate" means "love less", but when Scripture says God "loved Jacob and hated Esau" we can't interpret that the same way? that He "loved less Esau"?

Look at Psalm 5:5 and also Proverbs 6:16-19.