Answering Predestination "Proof" Texts

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SovereignGrace

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No, foreknew doesn't mean He did anything except exactly what it means: know them before they existed. To insist that He did something with that knowledge - designate, set aside, slate, etc. is purely subjective on the part of those who insist that unless you can point to the verse.
And foreknew/foreknow is a VERB. It means He did something in foreknowing them.
 

SovereignGrace

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No, foreknew doesn't mean He did anything except exactly what it means: know them before they existed. To insist that He did something with that knowledge - designate, set aside, slate, etc. is purely subjective on the part of those who insist that unless you can point to the verse.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

I have no idea why that came off as Genesis 1:1. It’s concerning the Greek word proginosko, foreknew in Greek.
 

SovereignGrace

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God is not gentle? If you read how God dealt with the apostate kings of OT Israel? He is so gentle that after Ahab had married a Baal worshiper and done more evil than any other king before him, killed many prophets of the Lord, made treaties against God's will, took the possessions of a murdered man, and just kept on doing evil toward God and His prophets...but when Ahab was sorry at the news his entire lineage would be wiped out - WORTHLESS SORROW THAT WAS NOT UNTO REPENTANCE - God even told the prophet, "See how Ahab is sorry? I'll not punish his family while he's yet alive." Yes, he's MORE than a Gentleman.
What I meant is God is not a gentleman as we count ppl as gentlemen.
 

ScottA

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Foreknew is foreknew, predestinate is predestined. He foreknew them, meaning He did something(chose/elected them) in foreknowing them.
Both terms are the "why" of an explanation to children, but not the "how" of all truth for the mature. They both are like God as a parent explaining to a young child how going to the doctor or dentist is going to go and how that its okay, without going into the details of why that only an older child would be able to relate to and rationalize.

First the natural, then the spiritual.

But the natural merely points to the spiritual. Much of what surrounds God's dealings with the natural become obsolete with those who are born of the spirit...including the old doctrine that pointed the way. This is what Paul meant by leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ. Such is not against Christ or the scriptures, but for Christ, and for the fulfillment of the scriptures.
 

Phoneman777

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Jesus often used illustrations in the same way as I do, in this case.
Saying, "you're wrong" is not argument, Dave.

Would you hire an attorney whose only strategy was to ask the judge to skip the arraignment and go right to trial, and then skip the trial and ask to have the case thrown out because as an attorney he finds himself in the "unique" position of defending a client who says "I didn't do it"?
 
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Dave L

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Saying, "you're wrong" is not argument, Dave.

Would you hire an attorney whose only strategy was to ask the judge to skip the arraignment and go right to trial, and then skip the trial and ask to have the case thrown out because as an attorney he finds himself in the "unique" position of defending a client who says "I didn't do it"?
God's hatred of Esau sent the Edomites to hell. Hating parents and family only applies to situations where like Abraham, we must choose between them and God.
 

Phoneman777

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God's hatred of Esau sent the Edomites to hell. Hating parents and family only applies to situations where like Abraham, we must choose between them and God.
No, the sin of the Edomites is what did that. That bit about only applying to family is subjective - no chapter of verse.

John's claim that "God is love" and your claim that "God hates" are mutually exclusive. God hates no one, but He definitely "prefers less" those like Esau and Edom who sin against Him and hurt those He prefers more - the ones who live for Him.
 
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Dave L

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No, the sin of the Edomites is what did that. That bit about only applying to family is subjective - no chapter of verse.

John's claim that "God is love" and your claim that "God hates" are mutually exclusive. God hates no one, but He definitely "prefers less" those like Esau and Edom who sin against Him and hurt those He prefers more - the ones who live for Him.
God rejected the Edomites and sent them to hell. Salvation was only of the Jews.
 
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Dave L

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No, the sin of the Edomites is what did that. That bit about only applying to family is subjective - no chapter of verse.

John's claim that "God is love" and your claim that "God hates" are mutually exclusive. God hates no one, but He definitely "prefers less" those like Esau and Edom who sin against Him and hurt those He prefers more - the ones who live for Him.

65. How may it be proved from God’s love of holiness and hatred of sin?
God’s love for holiness and hatred of sin is represented in Scripture as essential and intrinsic. He loves holiness for its own sake. He hates sin and is determined to punish it because of its intrinsic ill desert. He hates the wicked every day.—Ps. 5:5; 7:11. “To me belongeth vengeance and recompense.”—Deut. 32:35. “According to their deeds accordingly he will repay.”—Isa. 59:18; 2 Thess. 1:6. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.”—Rom. 1:32. “Knowing the judgment of God that they which commit such things are worthy of death.”—Deut. 17:6; 21:22.


Hodge, A. A. (1878). Outlines of Theology: Rewritten and Enlarged (pp. 156–157). New York: Hodder & Stoughton.
 

Phoneman777

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Look at Psalm 5:5 and also Proverbs 6:16-19.
Since "God so loved the world", so does Psalms 5:5 mean God went ahead and gave His only begotten Son for those He "hates" anyway, or those He "prefers less" than others love Him in return?

Proverbs 6:16-19 refers to actual intense, bitter hatred of God toward sinful acts/attitudes, not the person committing them, because such things brought so much suffering and death to the universe and ultimately to His own beloved Son.
 

Phoneman777

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65. How may it be proved from God’s love of holiness and hatred of sin?
God’s love for holiness and hatred of sin is represented in Scripture as essential and intrinsic. He loves holiness for its own sake. He hates sin and is determined to punish it because of its intrinsic ill desert. He hates the wicked every day.—Ps. 5:5; 7:11. “To me belongeth vengeance and recompense.”—Deut. 32:35. “According to their deeds accordingly he will repay.”—Isa. 59:18; 2 Thess. 1:6. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.”—Rom. 1:32. “Knowing the judgment of God that they which commit such things are worthy of death.”—Deut. 17:6; 21:22.


Hodge, A. A. (1878). Outlines of Theology: Rewritten and Enlarged (pp. 156–157). New York: Hodder & Stoughton.
God hates sin but loves this world of sinners which is why He gave Jesus for it. Therefore, God prefers the righteous and prefers less the sinner.
 
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Dave L

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God hates sin but loves the world of sinners which is why He gave Jesus for it. Therefore, God prefers the righteous and prefers less the sinner.
God hates sinners. They have noting in themselves God can love. If they did, they would share his glory being lovable.
 

Phoneman777

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Jew = religion not race.
Call it whatever, you're still arguing limitations, so my question to you is where does that limitation leave everyone for the 2,500 years of Earth's history before the first Jew was around?
 
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Dave L

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Call it whatever, you're still arguing limitations, so my question to you is where does that limitation leave everyone for the 2,500 years of Earth's history before the first Jew was around?
Was Abel saved? How about Job?
 

Phoneman777

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God hates sinners. They have noting in themselves God can love. If they did, they would share his glory being lovable.
God hates sinners but sent His Son to die for a world of them? I guess that means He did it for vanity?
 
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Dave L

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God hates sinners but sent His Son to die for a world of them? I guess that means He did it for vanity?
God is love and because of that he paid for the sins of those he hated. He will not share his glory.