Answering Predestination "Proof" Texts

[Dave L]

According to you, salvation was only available after circa 2,500 B.C.

Not true. You do not understand how salvation works.

 

[Dave L]

God hates sinners but sent His Son to die for a world of them? I guess that means He did it for vanity?

You need to study more.

 

[Phoneman777]

God is love and because of that he paid for the sins of those he hated. He will not share his glory.

That's ridiculous. No justice system in the world requires double payment for the same penalty. If God paid the penalty, then there's nothing left to pay. God died for everyone in the hope we all would accept that payment and be spared having to pay it ourselves in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Dave L]

That's ridiculous. No justice system in the world requires double payment for the same penalty. If God paid the penalty, then there's nothing left to pay. God died for everyone in the hope we all would accept that payment and be spared having to pay it ourselves in the Lake of Fire.

= salvation only for those who steal God's glory by taking it upon their self-righteous selves.

 

[Phoneman777]

You need to study more.

Dave, you need a deeper understanding of the character of God and the justice with which He deals with sin and sinners. There are too many inconsistencies with your arguments:

God is love but God hates people.
God in the past paid the penalty of sin of those He will force to pay themselves later anyway.
Our "hate" for loved ones meaning to "prefer less", but God's hate for sinners is without degree.

I can't subscribe to such contradictions, and no amount of study can explain them away.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, you need a deeper understanding of the character of God and the justice with which He deals with sin and sinners. There are too many inconsistencies with your arguments:

God is love but God hates people.
God in the past paid the penalty of sin of those He will force to pay themselves later anyway.
Our "hate" for loved ones meaning to "prefer less", but God's hate for sinners is without degree.

I can't subscribe to such contradictions, and no amount of study can explain them away.

God would not be good if he loved sinners instead of visiting wrath on them. He can only love them by first justifying them through Christ on the cross.

 

[Phoneman777]

= salvation only for those who steal God's glory by taking it upon their self-righteous selves.

I think you're confusing "theft" with "gift of God to those who accept it".

 

[Dave L]

I think you're confusing "theft" with "gift of God to those who accept it".

Those who are good enough to choose God steal his glory and take it upon themselves.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are robbing God of his glory in salvation, and giving it to yourself.

No

 

[Dave L]

No

Oh yes you are....

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since "God so loved the world", so does Psalms 5:5 mean God went ahead and gave His only begotten Son for those He "hates" anyway, or those He "prefers less" than others love Him in return?

Proverbs 6:16-19 refers to actual intense, bitter hatred of God toward sinful acts/attitudes, not the person committing them, because such things brought so much suffering and death to the universe and ultimately to His own beloved Son.

Wrong. God does not punish just the sin, but SINNERS. When a person is convicted of murder, murder doesn’t get punished alone, the murderer does. You can’t divorce sin from sinners and vice versa.

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.[Psalm 5:5] No mentioning of hating the sin but loving the sinner in this verse.

There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.[Proverbs 6:16-19] Nary a mention of God hating the sin but loving the sinner in this, either. He hates those who commit sin. You can’t divorce sin from sinners and vice versa.

This “God hates the sin but loves the sinner” looks good on bumpers, shirts, hats, tracts, &c., but if you presented it to a grand jury, it’d be rejected for lack of evidence.

 

[Phoneman777]

Those who are good enough to choose God steal his glory and take it upon themselves.

The idea that a saint can take to himself credit, glory, honor, bragging rights, etc., for his own salvation which for himself he is helpless to provide but which he takes hold of by faith salvation which Jesus freely provides...

...is as illogical a notion as a drowning man having absolutely no means by which to save himself, but taking to himself credit, glory, honor, bragging rights, etc., because he grabbed hold of a life ring thrown to him and was pulled to safety by another.

 

[Phoneman777]

Wrong. God does not punish just the sin, but SINNERS.

Actually, I never said He didn't punish sinners. I said His hatred which causes Him to despise is directed at sin, but His hatred which causes Him to "prefer less" is directed at the sinner.

[Psalm 5:5] No mentioning of hating the sin but loving the sinner in this verse.

No, but by comparing Scripture with Scripture, the picture that emerges is that God loves the sinner but also hates the sinner and the wicked, so we are left with an apparent contradiction: How can He simultaneously love them and hate them?

Your position demands we ignore those which say He loves the sinner. Mine requires no such disregard of the verses which say He hates the sinner.

The solution is found where Jesus tells us to "hate" our loved ones, which means "prefer less".

I cannot accept your position because it demands I ignore "for God so loved the world (of sinners)..."

 

[Dave L]

The idea that a saint can take to himself credit, glory, honor, bragging rights, etc., for his own salvation which for himself he is helpless to provide but which he takes hold of by faith salvation which Jesus freely provides...

...is as illogical a notion as a drowning man having absolutely no means by which to save himself, but taking to himself credit, glory, honor, bragging rights, etc., because he grabbed hold of a life ring thrown to him and was pulled to safety by another.

Only good guys take up with God. The Pharisees are a prime example. Grace on the other hand raises bad guys from the dead so they can believe and love God.

 

[Davy]

None of these reasons are why God chose some and didn't others, and especially why He hated Esau even before Esau had been born. But it's fun to see all the crazy doctrines that try to explain why and how God predestined His elect.

 

[brightfame52]

Correct. As I have said a few times already predestination for salvation would be a violation of God's character as well as His own Gospel.

Predestination is for the perfection of the saints. Those who are justified will ultimately be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). And that upholds the glory and righteousness of God.

DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE COMES FIRST
For whom he did foreknow,

THEN PREDESTINATION
he also did predestinate

FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFECTION
to be conformed to the image of his Son,

THAT THE CHILDREN OF GOD MAY RESEMBLE CHRIST PERFECTLY
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

GOD'S PERFECT PLAN OF SALVATION
1. Moreover whom he did predestinate,
2. them he also called:
3. and whom he called, them he also justified:
4. and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Gods predestination in and of Himself would logically come before anything He created, for He predetermined what He would create for His Own pleasure