Any day any time NOW Jesus will rapture believers that are looking for Him.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It is funny how you stopped at verse 15! Verses16 &17 are the key verses.
"caught up together" means snatched away, taken suddenly, [harpazo] and this is the bodily resurrection of those Christians who are alive. You can think this is nonsense until it happens.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
When Jesus/God speaks "like" the sound of a trumpet, it is just that, loud, piercing, clear, majestic, a metaphor.
Psalm 29:1-11
"David uses "thunder" as a metaphor for the voice of God, emphazing power, majesty.
Job 37:4-5: "After it a voice roars; He thunders with His majestic voice,..."
Revelation 14:2: "And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder.
Answer to your question: A & B are the same event.
Rev. 11:15
The one event that is the key to understanding when the Church is taken up is at the Last Trumpet. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52)
The Pre-Tribbers MUST therefore reject the 7th Trumpet as being the last trumpet. If the 7th is the last, then their whole scenario is flawed. It means we must endure through the Seals and six trumpets, yet we will avoid the wrath of God which comes in the Seven Bowls. The problem with Post-Tribbers is, they insist that the Church much endure the entire GT or die in the midst. God does not appoint us to wrath though; but we will suffer some of the Great Tribulation (or those days prior to the rapture).
> If there was a trumpet after the 7th, then it would be the 8th. If before the 7th, it wouldn’t be the last.
Let's examine the context of the 7th Trumpet.
Many things that you would expect to happen at our resurrection, occur at this time:
1. The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7 refers to the 7th trumpet) This mystery is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51-53, which speaks of the last trumpet. “but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.”Rev. 10:7
2. The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's. Evidently He just appeared to cause this to happen. (Rev. 11:15)
3. The dead are resurrected and judged also. (Rev. 11:18) >> This alone identifies this as the rapture/resurrection!
4. We receive rewards according for our deeds. (Rev. 11:18)
5. The Temple of God is open in heaven. (Rev. 11:19) 6. Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath are released! >> When Jesus arrives, He separates the sheep from the goats and it's harvest time ... the wrath of God begins!
Matt. 24:31 is the same Trumpet referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52 & Rev. 11:15, just a different vantage point, showing other events occuring.
As for Rev. 10:7, as previously mentioned, it's a reference to the 7th Trumpet: Do you know what the "mystery" is that will be revealed at this time? The mystery of God is not only what Jesus will look like, His glory and majesty, the reality of His Judgment that He brings but also what we will be like, the actual resurrection. We know we will be like Christ, but only eye witnesses have seen His resurrected body and even they did not know what His body was fully capable of. Appearing, disappearing, entering in and out of the spiritual realm into the physical, ascending ... might as well say flying like angels. At that moment of our resurrection _ wow _ the answer to the question _ the experience everyone has been waiting _ that is the mystery. This and all the mysterious about God throughout history will be revealed at this 7th Trumpet.
The previous verse, Rev. 10:6 says that there will be no more delay of this mystery.
>>>If it had happened prior to the Great Tribulation, what mystery would be left about Jesus and what we would be like???
God Has restrained evil throughout history and during the End Times, the Restrainer is taken out of the way and all evil breaks loose. This is the time, at the last trumpet, when the Restrainer is taken out of the way - with the Church. Make sense?
John heard what the seven thunders spoke and he was told to seal it up (Rev. 10:4)... until the last trumpet.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Bible search: Mother of God/Queen of Heaven, praying to "Mary" and the saints, Purgatory, a 'salvation by faith + works, infant baptism ...
>>>Sorry, we didn't find any results for your search! Please refer to the theology of such concepts that exist only in RCC Catechism and the traditions of the Catholic Church.
Only born-again believers that are looking for the rapture will be raptured all other believers will be left behind and will try to live under ant-Christ rule in the years of the great tribulation.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Both happen at this time, judgment upon the world system, destruction of all those who have rejected Christ, sin and evil removed for 1000 years and Satan and his horde locked up.
The Millennial Kingdom, with Jesus as King, will consist of Him physically ruling in Jerusalem over a world occuppied by Christians only. According to Romans 11, a remnant of Jews (1/3) will be converted to Christianity just after realizing Jesus is their Messiah, when every eye sees Him at His arrival. The Catholic Church I believe teaches preterism, that Revelation was fulfilled at least partially and much is symbolic, not to taken literally. You can believe what you want about the end times, it is not like it will effect your salvation. Just keep thee faith in thee Christ.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
... and die during that time. I am not sure that after the rapture, and the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way, who can be saved after that. What is left is wrath and during the seven bowls or judgment, it seems no one repents but curse God. Of course the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, and this is why I cannot be sure if people can be saved afterwards. Of course with the Pre-Trib view, people are left behind and realize their mistake and come to Christ. But that also would be fear based. Anyone realizing that 2.6 billion people are in heaven, would change their minds wouldn't they? You'd think, but God sends them a strond delusion that they believe the lie of the Antichrist, so remain blind and unable to believe otherwise. They get crazy, gathering up armies to war against God as if they have a chance.
After the rapture millions will see their great error and become believers.I44,000 Jews will preach the gospel
- 144,000 Jews who believe in Jesus (Revelation 7:3, 8)
- Two incredibly powerful evangelists or “witnesses” (Revelation 11:3)
- An angel shouting out the gospel while flying through the sky (Revelation 14:6-7)
- The tribulation saints (Revelation 12:11)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
If you understand the Bible to be a series of chronological events, then you would think that. However, I do not believe Revelation was put together that way. I think God goes back and forth, showing us different vantage points throughout. Events overlap happening simultaneously, we can read them simutaneously, so He shows us things from a different viewpoint. Rev. 7 and 14 both describe the 144,000. Is theree no time in between, and just a different vantage point? Rev. 12 speaks of Jesus birth, that is not any time near the Great Tribulation.
The scroll has seven seals. Jesus receives it when He ascended into heaven long ago. How else would we know what was in it. He opens it. He shows us what each one represents, an event in the future, it's a prophetic vision that didn't happen. John wrote this about 95 AD and Jesus probably opened it 63 years before that. I think the much of Revelation is like a transparent sphere of events. When you turn it, you see things within that overlap. For instance, many of the events in the trumpets are reflective of events in the seals. Obviously, the angel who is spreading the gospel doesn't wait until after the Church is gone. Wouldn't he do that prior to the GT and during the GT, but not after the rapture? Vantage points (repeated events seen from a different perspective), overlapping events, accumulative, etc. This is why Revelation is so confusing. You can't put every event in chronological order chapter by chapter. It would seem the entire planet is practically destroyed before the trumpets even blow. And the trumpets likely are blown rapidly. It is not like everything in the 1st trumpet must be complete before the 2nd trumpet blows. I think the four horsemen are released simultaneously. We are just shown individually what they represent. Pestilence, wars, famine and death are all happening simulataneously and accummulating during this time.
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Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
I won't be, but I rather doubt that the time is immediate - the mature church of Ephesians 4 isn't even on the radar yet, and I think that'll be the primary sign that the end is immanent.
The Visible church at present is still much more interested in in-fighting, politics, and Denominational foolishness, than it is in looking for Jesus' return.
God's Word is eternal perfect truth and little men best believe it as written without little men's ideas and opinions!!
they all are there!
but the Bible is not a list of doctrines or a catechism
Hebrews 9:28
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, """to them that wait for him""", unto salvation. =====Those not looking for Jesus will be left behind.
2 Peter3:4==Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “ Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”
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