Any thoughts on this? No exploding heads please.

[marks]

Well, for starters— angels don’t have physical bodies—- they temporarily dwell in ours. We are ‘the host of heaven’ and the kingdom of heaven is within. Neither do spiritual beings ‘have sex’ with humans. To put it crudely- that’s not what mating is, in a spiritual sense.

Perhaps I’ll start a new thread or take it elsewhere to disentangle. I do agree with you that forcing a particular understanding upon a passage has an unfortunate result, but it’s mostly because of incorrect assumptions. It’s like saying IF this means this, THEN that must mean that…. It only holds up if your original IF is correct. If your original IF is incorrect, but you believe it is true— it will yield only false conclusions.

Does that make sense? You have to start from the start and ensure that your premise is solid.

Actually I was hoping you would provide an exegesis of the passage in Jude, where you acknowledge the wording and the meanings of the words, and what they, in clauses and sentences and paragraphs, say.

There's no assuming, no forcing, only reading and believing, that's all we need do.

But just writing down your own conclusions, we go back and forth on that forever.

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Own habitation = oiketerion = celestial body

In like manner = doing the same thing = giving themselves over to fornication = having unlawful sex

Strange flesh = flesh of a different kind = flesh that is not "angel flesh" such as noted in 1 Cor 15.

Which do you think is inaccurate, what what should it really be understood to mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's one thing to tell someone, You're wrong. But who is able to say, This is what is right?

Go on record. Be specific with what you say. So we can compare to the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

You are correct but have a slight correction to make in your opening.
Review carefully as you should be able to see it.

?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jude. You change the meanings of the words to fit your view. Or so it seems to me.

I love, love, love the way you spoke here. You taught me something and you dont even know it.

Here is a larger part of the passage. I include how my own mind takes it in, in red ink.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Cetain people have slipped in among you, tares, they are ungodly, they pervert the grace and power of God into horrible immorality. They will be condemned and destroyed.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding townsgave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

I want to remind you of a few things:
1. God delivered His people out of bondage by this power and grace, but He later destroyed those who used it as an advantage to sin in unbelief.
2. And the angels who sinned and did not keep their positions of authority and used that power of God as an advantage to sin are chained up until their destruction.
3. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to sexual sins and immorality and will go into the fire.

In the same way as the examples I give above, the ungodly tares I previously mentioned who have crept in among you, by reason of dreams they have had, pollute their bodies with sexual sins, reject authority, and abuse celestial beings.

He, to me, is saying, these sins lead to destruction:
men who are freed from bondage sin: unbelief after they have been freed
sodoms sin: polluting the body with sexual sins.
angels sin: rejecting authority of God
Sodom and gomorrahs sin: trying to and thinking they even could, demand from and abuse/corrupt celestial beings to make them impart dark arts as in the past.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

sons of God means men of a certain bloodline that would branch off and be uncorrupted to bring forth Jesus from (the Branch and Shoot the prophets spoke of, how about that! The branching off, a branch from a family tree, the branch of the bloodline) and so they weren’t supposed to mate with another human, branching bloodline that the angels (now imprisoned) taught/tricked men to mingle their seed with, committing sexual sin with who they weren’t supposed to. I think they taught them more than just to do that sin because those children were TALL! But that’s another topic. (Think along the line of the sin of balaam, who taught the king how to trick the Israelites to commit sexual sin). It was cains “marked” bloodline the men weren’t supposed to mingle with the daughters of. Cain was marked so no one from the chosen bloodline WOULD mate with his line.

Do you think all, or even part of this, could be shown from scripture?

Very wrong. I have not read all teh other answers so I know no t if this was covered.

1.There is only one family bloodline- all came from Adam.
2. If they fell, then it is just as corrupt as these other supposed blood lines.
3. Sons of god in the OT in all other references refer to angels. One has to show just cause why it would not here as well.

 

[marks]

I love, love, love the way you spoke here. You taught me something and you dont even know it.

Here is a larger part of the passage. I include how my own mind takes it in, in red ink.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Cetain people have slipped in among you, tares, they are ungodly, they pervert the grace and power of God into horrible immorality. They will be condemned and destroyed.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding townsgave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

I want to remind you of a few things:
1. God delivered His people out of bondage by this power and grace, but He later destroyed those who used it as an advantage to sin in unbelief.
2. And the angels who sinned and did not keep their positions of authority and used that power of God as an advantage to sin are chained up until their destruction.
3. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to sexual sins and immorality and will go into the fire.

In the same way as the examples I give above, the ungodly tares I previously mentioned who have crept in among you, by reason of dreams they have had, pollute their bodies with sexual sins, reject authority, and abuse celestial beings.

He, to me, is saying, these sins lead to destruction:
men who are freed from bondage sin: subsequent unbelief
sodoms sin: polluting the body with sexual sins.
angels sin: rejecting authority of God
Sodom and gomorrahs sin: trying to and thinking they even could, demand from and abuse/corrupt celestial beings to make them impart dark arts as in the past.

I'd suggest a more literal translation.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'd suggest a more literal translation.

Much love!

I thought something was wrong! I forgot to change it to NASB! BIBLE gateway has NIV set as the default.
But it still doesn’t change my mind.

NASB
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after [g]strange flesh,

The angels indulged in the sexual perversion because they are the ones who even TAUGHT it in the first place. They enticed the men to go in to the flesh they weren’t to mingle with and they taught dark arts to the women in an attempt to do two things at once - mess up genetics and create a super breed AND make Jesus’ coming impossible.
They appeared to them in human form so they COULD entice them to sin and perversion. If they had appeared in the habitation God gave them, everyone would have just run away in terror and junked their drawers!

And for some reason, God let it go on until there was only one man and a few family members left who had not corrupted their way by listening to the angels.

And I know, you will say that’s reading a lot into it, but no More so than reading it as angels procreating with women.

 

[marks]

* Noting...^^^ the Harsh Consequence for a “spirit to mate with a human”.

Maybe like mixing cotton and wool . . .

* ALSO NOTING...SOME People have determined AND Preach...Jesus IS the Offspring Of a “SPIRIT (God) and a HUMAN Woman”....even going so far as to making the human woman’s DNA, a contributor to Jesus’ Humanity.

Although, God may do what He commands others to not do. He knows when it is and isn't right to do, such as killing others. He's given us a narrow window of when we might kill others, in self defense or capitol punishment. But God isn't bound to our restrictions.

Though I do agree with you, that Jesus, being the Last Adam, was "fresh", not from Adam's physical line. Jesus is the Son of God, Adam was the son of God, Jesus IS our brother! Our Kinsman Redeemer! But He did NOT share in the corrupted flesh of Adam.

~ IMO...ONCE an Angel Having Come down To Earth, DO SO copulate with Human Women....They automatically Gave up their right to return to (now defunct) Heavenly Estate.

I've not really thought about that before, but it makes sense to me. I don't feel like I have sufficient info on angel bodies to have much to say. Maybe it's like human spiritual death. We can't recover on our own. And we sure know that whether or not they would have been capable of returning, that God instead bound them over for judgment, so they don't even have the opportunity.

Jesus was born of God...Mary was a faithful servant who delivered forth, according to law of nature, 9 months.... (not the law of

John 1:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This part . . . I'm not sure I'm catching your meaning here. Elaborate?

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Own habitation = oiketerion = celestial body

In like manner = doing the same thing = giving themselves over to fornication = having unlawful sex

Strange flesh = flesh of a different kind = flesh that is not "angel flesh" such as noted in 1 Cor 15.

Which do you think is inaccurate, what what should it really be understood to mean?

Again, you have to start from the start. If you want to understand what Jude is talking about, you have to approach the subject from his perspective. -From his understanding of things, not your own.

Do you understand where Jude was coming from?

 

[Taken]

This part . . . I'm not sure I'm catching your meaning here. Elaborate?

Much love!

* Law of nature.
~ Will of man...copulation
~ Mans seed passes through the womb, up a (fallopian) tube to the female (ovum) seed...conception.
~ Fertilized egg travels down the tube to womb, watery encapsulation forms around the egg (placenta)...female called...conceived in her womb.
~ Nine months later...the conceived thing is delivered out of the placenta, out of the womb...called born.
~ Connecting cord from that thing, to the placenta is severed.
~ The life is thereafter an independent being, no longer dependent upon the LIFE (Blood)of the female.
~ soul received from God, now that being is dependent on Gods breath of Life.
~ soul with Gods Breath departs that body...body dies.

* Spiritual event...
~ no copulation
~ females seed irrelevant
~ Female Pregnant Conceived in her Womb...without copulation, without her seed fertilized.
~ mothers life, (blood) did not “sustain” the life in her womb.
~ the life in her womb, was the spirit of God, who IS Gods Life.
~ God Prepared a body for His Own Life, in the likeness as a man.
~ For 9 months, that LIFE was hidden “IN”side of a human female’s womb.

* For years after His delivery, He was called the “son of Man”. Looked as a man, called a man.
* The Female was told, He “would be called” the Son of God.
* At about age 30, A voice from Heaven declared “that day”, (John’s baptism), God declared Jesus’ His Son.

....Son of God...son of God....are “declared” status titles, via God, unto His Faithful.
....Son of God...ONLY...came forth (born) OUT from God....(before he was Sent to Mary’s womb....(not Fallopian tube, not Ovum).

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out fromGod.

John 17:
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

And I know, you will say that’s reading a lot into it, but no More so than reading it as angels procreating with women.

I don't agree with this. The saying that angels had sex with humans is plain. Your quote from the NASB shows that.

The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, demanding that Lot hand over the two angels that they could have sex with them. Lot responded with what he (crazily) hoped would be accepted as an acceptable substitute, that he would give them his two daughters so they could have sex with them instead. Did Lot somehow think that his daughters would be able help them with their genetic experiments? I don't think so.

And who are the unclean spirits which roam arid places looking for a body to inhabit? These angels who disobeyed aren't roaming anywhere, they are bound in eternal chains. These unclean spirits are the "spirits" of the nephilim having perished in the flood, neither man, that they would go to sheol, nor angel, that they are bound with the angels. Left to roam the earth disembodied, and seeking bodies to inhabit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, you have to start from the start. If you want to understand what Jude is talking about, you have to approach the subject from his perspective. -From his understanding of things, not your own.

Do you understand where Jude was coming from?

I'm still hoping you will exegete the passage . . . for some reason you seem to not want to . . . I don't know.

And you must not substitute "your own" perspective for Jude's . . . right? And we shouldn't overlook just how it is God expresses His truths as He inspired Jude to write . . . right?

So I come back to, what are the words He said, and what do they mean?

He made a presentation where he names off certain historical incidents as examples. One was how the men of Sodom tried to have sex with two angels. Another being certain angels who left their celestial bodies to have sex with human women. He just comes right out and says it.

So I'm wondering how it is you look at these statements to mean something other than the words they use, or how those words don't mean what they mean. Exegesis might help me see that. We start with the words. When we know what they mean, we can string them together into clauses, into sentences, into paragraphs, each deriving their meaning from what came before, the sentence, the clause, the individual word.

I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself anywhere, so I don't believe in one passage "negating" the meaning of another passage. I believe all are true, and any perceived contradiction is due to not correctly understanding what a passage is saying, in it's plain saying.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that the revealed spiritual meaning of the Scripture is "hidden in plain sight". People read the words, but simply don't assign the full significance to them, and fail to take in the meaning. When the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the word, I find it's been there written out just that way the whole time, only, I didn't recognize it. Cognitive Bias, we need to be on guard against it. And preconceptions. We need to always be ready, even eager, to cast off what we find disagrees with the Bible.

And I don't believe I will ever be wrong to hang my hat on the plain sayings of the Bible. (for my detractors, that means what it says according to normal use of language, in all it's forms and styles, not that God has feathers and we take shelter under a bird.)

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

I'm still hoping you will exegete the passage . . . for some reason you seem to not want to . . . I don't know.

And you must not substitute "your own" perspective for Jude's . . . right? And we shouldn't overlook just how it is God expresses His truths as He inspired Jude to write . . . right?

So I come back to, what are the words He said, and what do they mean?

Much love!

I will brother Mark. But I'm telling you ahead of time that the exercise won't be easy for you and it likely won't prove very satisfying for you. What makes me think so? Because I know how hard it is to empty one's pockets. It's like he said to the rich man--- in order to enter the kingdom of God-- go sell all you have and give it away. Or like he said in the desert to the 12 tribes of Israel-- Follow me.

Can you set your 'stuff' aside? Are you willing to? What if your ideas are (mostly) wrong?

That's the very problem that Christ faced. They all had their own ideas and he said to them-- you have yourselves an excellent set of facts-- and a completely wrong understanding of them.

 

[David in NJ]

* Law of nature.
~ Will of man...copulation
~ Mans seed passes through the womb, up a (fallopian) tube to the female (ovum) seed...conception.
~ Fertilized egg travels down the tube to womb, watery encapsulation forms around the egg (placenta)...female called...conceived in her womb.
~ Nine months later...the conceived thing is delivered out of the placenta, out of the womb...called born.
~ Connecting cord from that thing, to the placenta is severed.
~ The life is thereafter an independent being, no longer dependent upon the LIFE (Blood)of the female.
~ soul received from God, now that being is dependent on Gods breath of Life.
~ soul with Gods Breath departs that body...body dies.

* Spiritual event...
~ no copulation
~ females seed irrelevant
~ Female Pregnant Conceived in her Womb...without copulation, without her seed fertilized.
~ mothers life, (blood) did not “sustain” the life in her womb.
~ the life in her womb, was the spirit of God, who IS Gods Life.
~ God Prepared a body for His Own Life, in the likeness as a man.
~ For 9 months, that LIFE was hidden “IN”side of a human female’s womb.

* For years after His delivery, He was called the “son of Man”. Looked as a man, called a man.
* The Female was told, He “would be called” the Son of God.
* At about age 30, A voice from Heaven declared “that day”, (John’s baptism), God declared Jesus’ His Son.

....Son of God...son of God....are “declared” status titles, via God, unto His Faithful.
....Son of God...ONLY...came forth (born) OUT from God....(before he was Sent to Mary’s womb....(not Fallopian tube, not Ovum).

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out fromGod.

John 17:
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Glory to God,
Taken

Clarify if i misread this.
Are you saying that Mary's body did not feed, nourish and oxygenate the body inside her that God was preparing/creating for the Eternal Son to inhabit - as prophesied.

 

[David in NJ]

I will brother Mark. But I'm telling you ahead of time that the exercise won't be easy for you and it likely won't prove very satisfying for you. What makes me think so? Because I know how hard it is to empty one's pockets. It's like he said to the rich man--- in order to enter the kingdom of God-- go sell all you have and give it away. Or like he said in the desert to the 12 tribes of Israel-- Follow me.

Can you set your 'stuff' aside? Are you willing to? What if your ideas are (mostly) wrong?

That's the very problem that Christ faced. They all had their own ideas and he said to them-- you have yourselves an excellent set of facts-- and a completely wrong understanding of them.

If Brother Marks does not accept the challenge, i do = wholeheartedly and without reserve.

 

[marks]

I will brother Mark. But I'm telling you ahead of time that the exercise won't be easy for you and it likely won't prove very satisfying for you. What makes me think so? Because I know how hard it is to empty one's pockets. It's like he said to the rich man--- in order to enter the kingdom of God-- go sell all you have and give it away. Or like he said in the desert to the 12 tribes of Israel-- Follow me.

Can you set your 'stuff' aside? Are you willing to? What if your ideas are (mostly) wrong?

That's the very problem that Christ faced. They all had their own ideas and he said to them-- you have yourselves an excellent set of facts-- and a completely wrong understanding of them.

I hope you are more right about the Bible then you are about me.

And BTW . . . sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Statements like these are kind of a tautology.

Gee, can anyone set aside their preconceptions? Is there Anyone who can just sit down with the Bible, and read it with fresh eyes, and an open heart? Can I? Can you? Can he? Can we? Do you know what I'm saying?

I already "know you don't like" . . . well, I don't write like that myself, because it's not my job to define you. My job is to declare the Word of the LORD. Everybody has their own ideas. Let's conform them to Scripture.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I hope you are more right about the Bible then you are about me.

And BTW . . . sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Statements like these are kind of a tautology.

Gee, can anyone set aside their preconceptions? Is there Anyone who can just sit down with the Bible, and read it with fresh eyes, and an open heart? Can I? Can you? Can he? Can we? Do you know what I'm saying?

I already "know you don't like" . . . well, I don't write like that myself, because it's not my job to define you. My job is to declare the Word of the LORD. Everybody has their own ideas. Let's conform them to Scripture.

Much love!

You = "And BTW . . . sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."

you beat me to it, i was just getting ready to post the same......lol

along with conformity to Scripture

 

[marks]

If Brother Marks does not accept the challenge, i do = wholeheartedly and without reserve.

The personalities stuff doesn't interest me. I've asked for his interpretation of the passage in exegesis, it's up to him if he wants to do that or not, right now he seems to want to talk about me. Having never even met me in person, much less a phone call, only what he reads from my posts.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You = "And BTW . . . sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."

you beat me to it, i was just getting ready to post the same......lol

I applaud you for knowing and using the expression! Bravo!

Much love!

 

[marks]

But I'm telling you ahead of time that the exercise won't be easy for you

I'm suddenly wondering, well, do you realize I'm asking for an exegesis of this particular passage,

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I'm thinking that it shouldn't be too difficult if you already have an understanding of the passage. I'm just looking for you to share your specific understanding of these sayings, and what you base that understanding upon. In asking for exegesis, I'm asking you to center your basis on the specific words used and the statements that they make.

For myself, I have no issue changing what I think when I see the Bible speaking differently. Not to do so is foolish in my opinion, that is, foolish in the Biblical meaning, which is to deny God to my own hurt. Personally, I hang on His every word!

Anyway, just to clarify I'm only asking for your exegesis of those 2 verses. And whatever else you want to say, naturally!

Much love!