GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
Believe and look for the very near rapture "catching up" or be left behind===your choice!!
Apostle Paul Showed The Rapture Happens With The Future Resurrection
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I will go further than you, and state the Second Coming is prior to the time of Jacob's trouble called the GT. Jacob's trouble is the separation of the sheep and goats, and then the final harvest. Jesus and the angels will be present on the earth, during the Great Tribulation. This is found both in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25.
Paul's rapture and Second Coming are represented in the 5th and 6th Seal. That is prior to the Trumpets and Thunders.
And what I said there in red IS... from the actual Bible Scripture. So what's your problem?
Oh, I know what your problem is, YOU don't study your Bible, so you are NOT even familiar with those events directly from Bible Scripture! You instead listen to your FALSE Pre-trib Rapture teachers feed you horse manure from their 'reasoning', and not God's Truth from His Word.
So here we go again folks, do you think they will comprehend what Apostle Paul actually said here in 1 Thess.4? I doubt it, because man's false Pre-trib Rapture doctrines are designed to BLIND the believer away from what is actually written...
1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Let's see, the subject so far is about what, duh..., oh, it's about the "asleep" saints! Easy.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Do we in Christ believe Jesus rose from the dead? Of course those of us that are 'faithful' believe that. Paul says then, for us to believe that when Jesus comes, He will bring those 'asleep' saints WITH HIM. Uh... from WHERE will He bring them exactly? FROM HEAVEN!!! YEAH!
OK, so HOW will Jesus bring those "asleep" saints FROM HEAVEN when He comes?? Won't they have to be RESURRECTED FIRST?
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Again that word "prevent" in the KJV is not the real Greek word. The Greek word there is phthano (NT:5348) which means 'precede, or be beforehand'. Paul is simply saying we who remain alive on earth to that day of Christ's coming shall not PRECEDE the "asleep" saints. It means Jesus raises the "asleep" saints on that day first, and brings them with Him when He descends from heaven...
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
And there it is. Paul showed Jesus will RESURRECT those "asleep" saints first. Then He descends... from heaven with that "trump of God", which is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, and "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Then those of us still alive ON EARTH, at Christ's DESCENDING, are "caught up" (rapture) to Jesus and those "asleep" saints He brings with Him!
So... that BEGS the question WHEN those "asleep" saints are RESURRECTED? That's easy per the written Scripture also...
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
The above means that Jesus' coming to gather His Church like Paul is showing in the above, MUST be on that LAST DAY of this world! because that LAST DAY is when the FUTURE RESURRECTION IS TO HAPPEN (again see what Jesus said in John 5:28-29).
THAT... is what I taught which strictly stays with what was written by Apostle Paul there!
Therefore, YOUR LIES against me DO NOT WORK you charlatan!
There's that DESPERATION attack from another spirit against the actual written Bible Scripture again. Jesus revealed in Luke 17:37 that the 1st one TAKEN is to wheresoever the FOWLS are that eat on a dead carcase. The Matthew 24:28 version of His answer using the Greek word for a dead "carcase".
Thus man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE theory goes directly AGAINST what Lord Jesus Himself warned His faithful about NOT being the 1st one TAKEN, and it shows those 1st ones are TAKEN by Satan's hosts!
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
Twisting God's written Word with little slogans is what Satan's host and those he has deceived often do.
They create little non-Biblical slogans like "Left-Behind" and even write whole book series about being left-behind (like the Pre-trib author Tim LaHaye did), and even turns some of them into HOLLYWOOD MOVIES with popular actors, like Nicolas Cage, etc.! That kind of strategy is of this FLESH WORLD, and that kind of working belongs to Satan and how he operates!
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
...and yet rev 14 has two gatherings to heaven DURING THE TRIBULATION
So your doctrine fooled you into believing the dead in Christ are NOT RAISED first.
Just reporting verses
Refute the bible if you must.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Well waddayouknow someone decoded my screen name. Finally!
IS that why you always ignored my scriptures when we talked rapture before? SO there's no use in posting scriptures for you, because of your hardened heart?
Ok so riddle me this: If Matthew 24:44 doesnt speak of a pretrib rapture then what does it mean? And when? SHould I tear that page of Matthew out of my Bible?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
When those verses are in context, we have Jesus saying He is GATHERING pretrib
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Jesus said;
Before the flood normal life with commerce and peacetime setting.
Noah enters ark ( a type of heaven) pretrib
The flood comes and takes Noah and sinners away.
HMMMMM...Taken away. All are taken away...Hmmmmm
Jesus said "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
Then he says in his pretrib coming/gathering;
One taken, one left.
50% of those groups of 2 vanish.
Half the church stays.
....and we are still in Jesus setting of BEFORE THE FLOOD.
He concludes with;
Coming as a thief in the night
Be ready
Watch for his pretrib coming.
But you will not see a postribber ever honestly address those verses.
Why???
Because they have a white knuckle grip on a farce that Jesus can only come one time.
A babe in Christ with a bible can debate these misguided souls.
Mat 25 is a continuation of The "before the flood" setting.
Rev 14 has gatherings during the trib..
Plus the other pretrib rapture verses.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
postribber challenge.
Show me how to interpret the statements by Jesus he is gathering pre flood.
Show me how to interpret the statements by Jesus he is gathering pre flood.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I agree, and to pick up where you left off...(!!)
Our Lord is the God who tells the end from the beginning. Noah's ark was all about being a types and shadows of the rapture. Revelation 19:7 says 'The Bride has made herself ready' Jesus calls the ones who will be raptured the Bride. We call it, the Church. But scripture warns us that some will profess all their deeds and He will have to say, I never knew you, Matthew 7:21-23 Those left behind will wail. They are they lukewarm fence sitters and those who had sin in their lives on the day He shows up! So the real church (the Bride) will all be taken and many left behind people will suddenly repent and say uh-oh. I need to get serious with the Lord...If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15) they will be the new church and go through the great trib so while the GT is happening on earth, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is going on in heaven! This sounds like it will be the biggest best BBQ party that anyone in the Universe has ever been to!! I dont want to miss that!!
Ponder this one as a type and shadow!
Daniel 9:25-26
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..../KJV
V24 sounds like a commandment to His people. I believe this is shows us how the Bride makes herself ready! I watched an Allen Nolan teaching on this subject before and he went through all the math of it and made it make sense. His conclusion was that...They knew the Messiah would be coming, and they were not ready for Him in keeping His commandments. They weren't watching for Him. So IIRC, the 69 weeks (of prophetic years) that the Lord said they owe Him for and when he went through all the math, he somehow figured out that it figured out to be May 14th, 1948. The very day that Israel became a nation again.
A type and shadow of things to come. Read the entire chapter of Daniel 9 and it tells exactly about all their transgressions and stuff, it reads like last evening's news! (sic). How the world is now! We know the Messiah will be coming. The bride is the spotless ones. You cant be having sin in your life. No partying, affairs, homesexuality, thievery, or anything. That stains your wedding dress. (And she showed up for the wedding that day with a totally filthy wedding dress on! And He said, Uh, she isnt my Bride! So she will be left behind. She wasnt ready.
This is all being done according to old Hebrew wedding proceedings. First there is a Betrolal (Being born again!) then the groom leaves to go and prepare a home for her! He builds a place for her on His Fathers land (Yes!!) and she does not know when he will return for her. She must be ready and have plenty of oil for her lamp because the groom usually returned at night and those potential Brides which were not ready...were left behind in the rapture is what it means to us. If the Bride is excited about her wedding she will be ready. Thinking planning making herself ready. Look out the window again, I heard something! (That's the girl I would marry!
I had a fiance once and we were going to be married and when I went to go pick her up that day, she was still sleeping. (not really) but I didnt marry her! She said she will marry me but there are a few things that she wanted to do first...Who would marry her? Not me. Not the Lord either apparently!
The Bride if she had made herself ready she might have seen me out the window cming from afar and run out to meet me! That is the girl I would marry, one that loves me like that, and she was spotless and beautiful...!! I'm sorry I took so long honey but I was making a place for you that is extra special!!
That's what's going on. And the 70th week of daniel which is 1 day per year as figured by a prophetical calander is 7 more years. There is the 7 year tribulation period which completes the 70 weeks of daniel 9. With the last 3.5 years being the so called Great Tribulation.
Hmmm, One one hand we have great tribulation, such as the world has never seen before! (and you think it's bad now?!). And on the other hand you have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb! The best BBQ party anyone has ever seen before! Easily easy to get excited over! The Lord loves His Bride like no other! And He loves surpises! Which hand should I choose? Hmm. Lol! I do not want to miss the Rapture. We know the Groom is coming!
Can you imagine what it will be like if we are actually watching for him and ready in spirit when He comes?! I expect overwhelming joy. We have to be ready and watching for Him though. I suppose what that means is becoming an over the hill gone Jesus Freak!
It is a cloudy day, and He said He will come in the clouds, so it could be today! I had to e sure. Will it be cloudy tonight? Hmm.
The Rapture will definitly be pre trib and it is all in scripture too, but that's another long post, lol. Sorry it too me so long to write this post I had to keep coming back to after I checked at the window!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Oh I forgot the other part of the Hebrew wedding customs. After the Marriage, the Bride and Groom go into the wedding chamber for 7 days. I think this accounts for the last week of the 70 weeks. That instantly brings to mind,
Isaiah 26:20
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.../KJV
The Bride has been set apart and will not even see the wrath of God during the GT. She is safe in her chamber (our new heavenly house or mansion?) while the GT is happening.
Shut your doors and hide yourself as it were for a moment (3.5 years? 7 years?) I think maybe 3.5 years because the Marriage supper of the Lamb isnt in our chambers I'm sure. And even though the Presence of our Lord will be with us there, He will also at the same time be bringing Judgment upon Israel and the world during the great trib (GT).
Just like Hebrew wedding customs.
And at the conclusion of the 70th week, Jesus makes His grand return to earth and outs down all evil. His so called 2nd coming, but is actually his 3rd if you count the time He comes for His Bride. Then it's over! The Millenial reign begins for 1000 years.
Isaiah 26:20
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.../KJV
The Bride has been set apart and will not even see the wrath of God during the GT. She is safe in her chamber (our new heavenly house or mansion?) while the GT is happening.
Shut your doors and hide yourself as it were for a moment (3.5 years? 7 years?) I think maybe 3.5 years because the Marriage supper of the Lamb isnt in our chambers I'm sure. And even though the Presence of our Lord will be with us there, He will also at the same time be bringing Judgment upon Israel and the world during the great trib (GT).
Just like Hebrew wedding customs.
And at the conclusion of the 70th week, Jesus makes His grand return to earth and outs down all evil. His so called 2nd coming, but is actually his 3rd if you count the time He comes for His Bride. Then it's over! The Millenial reign begins for 1000 years.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Not even close
Rev 14 has the gathering of the living during the trib.
So your deal is 100% debunked
Or just change 1 thes to ;" the dead in Christ DO NOT rise first.
A babe in Christ with a bible can see through the postribber speculations.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I mostly agree except Rev 19 is in heaven with the already gathered saints from 7 years prior.
It can not be in anyway associated wit a pretrib rapture.
Read what it actually says
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
It says "WIFE" not bride.
The bride has become the wife at the end of the gt, which is rev 19's setting.
That teacher told you wrong.
Mucho Falsehoodo that above is.
There are only TWO comings by Jesus Christ written of in all of God's Word, even in Zechariah 9:9-10.
Christ's 1st coming was meek as a Lamb to be crucified on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.
Christ's only other coming, a 2nd coming, is on the LAST DAY of this world and is when He will gather His Faithful Church and end the tribulation and this present world, the events that will happen the "day of the Lord", which is the day of His only future coming.
Thus you have LIED against The Holy Spirit in The Word of God and will be held accountable for it.
Impossible, and that goes directly... against the written Scripture...
Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV
Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
Thus the "time of trouble" is the SAME event as the "great tribulation".
"There's more things in heaven and earth, MA2444, than are dreamt of in your philosophy..." - Shakespeare mostly.
The Jewish wedding feast has absolutely NOTHING to do with the event of Christ's future return to gather His Church.
Even in Christ's parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25, BELIEVERS ON CHRIST are represented as... what? His bride?? NO! Believers on Jesus are represented there as the VIRGINS. And half of them are FOOLISH virgins that don't have enough of the OIL (Holy Spirit) to go with their Lamps! So they try... to go to the market and BUY... The Holy Spirit OIL for their burned out lamps!
Guess who those five foolish virgins represent brethren in Christ?
They represent the DECEIVED who want to FLY AWAY that will be to ANOTHER, as they will NOT remain as chaste virgins waiting on Jesus to come AFTER the tribulation!
Instead those who FLY AWAY (pre-trib rapture) will be the FIRST ONES TAKEN, which will be to SATAN and his hosts, the symbolic fowls in Christ's Luke 17 parable of two grinding at the mill and one taken and the other left.
I'm going to reveal to brethren in Christ a 'mystery' about the event of the flood of Noah's day, and how it relates to the end times. And it ain't... about a pre-trib rapture.
Per Genesis 7, the waters of the flood prevailed upon the earth for "an hundred and fifty days." Per the old Hebrew reckoning for a month, one month = 30 days. Thus 150 days = "five months".
And note that God shut the door of the ark, sealing Noah and his family inside the ark.
Then the ark was UPON THE WATERS OF THE FLOOD for a period of 150 days.
Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
KJV
Christ warned us about a symbolic flood of waters that comes out of the serpent's mouth at the end of this world, after he is cast out of heaven down to this earth. Eventually the earth swallows up the flood, which links to the past event of the flood of Noah's day.
Rev 12:12-17
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Once Satan is cast out of heaven with his angels down to this earth, for the coming "great tribulation", he then knows he will only have a "short time" left to deceive the world.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
He will of course go after the symbolic "woman" of this chapter which represents the children of Israel, both Jews and the hidden seed of the lost ten tribes of Israel.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Per Rev.12:9, the "serpent" is just another name for Satan. That "a time, and times, and half a time" represents the 1260 days of Rev.11 that God's two witnesses will be given to prophesy by The Holy Spirit against the beast. That is "great tribulation" timing.
Notice that symbolic water as a flood comes out of the serpent's MOUTH. That means... WORDS? Yeah, that's the ticket! Words that cause deception upon the deceived. That is pointing to Satan coming to claim he is The Christ and God, to deceive the whole world, and IF it were possible, even Christ's very elect.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The earth swallowing up Satan's deceptive words represents what event for the END? It represents how God's "two witnesses" AND the "two candlesticks" that are 2 Churches will... neutralize Satan's flood of LIES! Remember in Mark 13 Jesus told us if we are delivered up to not premeditate what we will say in that 'hour', but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say? God is going to SPEAK through His delivered up elect, and Satan and his host will not like it!
Because of that TESTIMONY by Christ's elect at the end, Satan will determine to go and DESTROY all of God's people off the face of the earth! Look who he will especially go after...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
So how long was Noah's ark upon the HEIGHT of flood waters before the earth began swallowing those waters? 150 days, or "five months".
And per Revelation 9, just how long is the future STINGING?
Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV
And just WHERE did the sting of their tails COME FROM?
Rev 9:19
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
KJV
The waters as a flood came out of the serpent's... what? See Rev.12:15 again if you've already forgotten. The STINGING is about WORDS that come out the MOUTH of Satan and his locust army (which are men by the way). And it will last over a period of FIVE MONTHS (the 150 days that Noah's ark was upon the height of flood waters.)
Per Genesis 7, the waters of the flood prevailed upon the earth for "an hundred and fifty days." Per the old Hebrew reckoning for a month, one month = 30 days. Thus 150 days = "five months".
And note that God shut the door of the ark, sealing Noah and his family inside the ark.
Then the ark was UPON THE WATERS OF THE FLOOD for a period of 150 days.
Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
KJV
Christ warned us about a symbolic flood of waters that comes out of the serpent's mouth at the end of this world, after he is cast out of heaven down to this earth. Eventually the earth swallows up the flood, which links to the past event of the flood of Noah's day.
Rev 12:12-17
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Once Satan is cast out of heaven with his angels down to this earth, for the coming "great tribulation", he then knows he will only have a "short time" left to deceive the world.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
He will of course go after the symbolic "woman" of this chapter which represents the children of Israel, both Jews and the hidden seed of the lost ten tribes of Israel.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Per Rev.12:9, the "serpent" is just another name for Satan. That "a time, and times, and half a time" represents the 1260 days of Rev.11 that God's two witnesses will be given to prophesy by The Holy Spirit against the beast. That is "great tribulation" timing.
Notice that symbolic water as a flood comes out of the serpent's MOUTH. That means... WORDS? Yeah, that's the ticket! Words that cause deception upon the deceived. That is pointing to Satan coming to claim he is The Christ and God, to deceive the whole world, and IF it were possible, even Christ's very elect.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The earth swallowing up Satan's deceptive words represents what event for the END? It represents how God's "two witnesses" AND the "two candlesticks" that are 2 Churches will... neutralize Satan's flood of LIES! Remember in Mark 13 Jesus told us if we are delivered up to not premeditate what we will say in that 'hour', but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say? God is going to SPEAK through His delivered up elect, and Satan and his host will not like it!
Because of that TESTIMONY by Christ's elect at the end, Satan will determine to go and DESTROY all of God's people off the face of the earth! Look who he will especially go after...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
So how long was Noah's ark upon the HEIGHT of flood waters before the earth began swallowing those waters? 150 days, or "five months".
And per Revelation 9, just how long is the future STINGING?
Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV
And just WHERE did the sting of their tails COME FROM?
Rev 9:19
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
KJV
The waters as a flood came out of the serpent's... what? See Rev.12:15 again if you've already forgotten. The STINGING is about WORDS that come out the MOUTH of Satan and his locust army (which are men by the way). And it will last over a period of FIVE MONTHS (the 150 days that Noah's ark was upon the height of flood waters.)
Davy, you wrote that the rapture takes place in Matthew 24:31, the day of Jesus's return, did you not ?
While we don't know what calendar day that will be at present, Jesus's return is on last day of the 7 years. So you have placed the rapture on a specific day on the timeline.
The lost or win on the rapture timing view debate will be proved out when the rapture actually takes place.
Your rapture timing view is wrong because the bible says we don't know the day, nor hour - which you claim the rapture is Matthew 24:31, the day of Jesus's return.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Stop with the drama please.
We can see VIVIDLY the "1 coming" or "2 coming" error you cling to.
Rev 14 has Jesus SITTING ON A CLOUD GATHERING.
Try reading it and telling us how the bible got it wrong.
Explain how "before the flood" of mat 24 works out to only be "after the flood".
You have Jesus himself as confused in your scripture REFRAME dance.
You have Lot as an example ,that is not delivered or gathered pre judgement.
Your doctrine NECESSITATES that Lot endure Sodom's judgement, then ridiculously gathered up after that judgement. Ahem, same with Noah.(some bizarre notion that Noah is a post judgement gathering)
Please show me how the bible got that wrong.
Remember...all those gatherings you deny.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
We will note that you did not and can not unpack the gathering of rev 14.
Instead you actually insist the Holy Spirit behind the verses got it wrong.
Do you ever honestly reconcile verses?
Skipping verses is what error is made of.
But reframing revelation and
Blaming the Holy Spirit is bizarre and desperate.
Rev 14 completely destroys your deal.
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